Tone arm holes do not line up - best way to attach TT?

Sorry I didn’t have time to read through some likely very good comments by experienced posters.

Here are my thoughts ...

I was tasked with correcting the mount of a Reed 2P for a customer, and discovered that the arm’s mounting specifications (pivot to spindle distance) did not allow for a Baerwaald adjustment, due to (1) being specified for some alternate alignment, and (2) the headshell slots being very short.

I don’t know if this has changed with the "3" series, but it’s something to research. I wrote this Reed installation up in my blog. If you key " A Creative Demo" into the search box on my website, you’ll find a two part rant about this.

You’ll also note how I worked to get the arm positioned to facilitate a reasonable VTA adjustment range (adding 1/2" of height to the armboard). The arm was "non-standard" in this regard, requiring very little "drop" from the platter to the armboard surface. Again, this may have been revised in the "3" series, but I’d look into this as well.

As far as double sided tape is concerned, DRILL AND SCREW that tonearm in place. Tapped holes are elegant, but thru-holes with capture nuts are fine.

In that blog post, take note of the severe sonic drop-off in dynamics during my prototyping of the revised armboard. The acrylic shims I used utterly destroyed the dynamics, and this is far better coupling than two-sided tape.

Frankly, before drilling, I’d verify your mounting location with a known good tool like the Feickert protractor. I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention that we sell them. Of course, you can drill twice and measure once, if that’s your preference ;-)

Lastly, is Joe Cohen still importing these turntables? I’d contact the importer for mounting help. It’s the importer and dealer who should be helping you with this and not some folks on an internet forum.

Failing that, if you need some help (or a possible referral to someone near you), feel free to reach out.

Thom @ Galibier Design

Antiscate should have no bearing on your issue.  My arm, and many I've seen tracks well without any antiscate at all

Its called putting things in perspective. A long arm is just some guys idea of how to reduce tracking error. Its based on the idea tracking error is important. Which it is. But tracking error, which is the whole reason for the long arm, is but one on a very long list of factors that go into it.  

How anyone goes from a totally unobjectionable straightforward comment to trivializing and whimsical is a question I leave to their psychologist.

@amg56   Effective Length 282 mm = 11.1 inches!

Miller carbon likes to trivialize many things that many people obsess over. I understand where he is coming from. On the other hand a 12 inch tonearm is only one option, and there are pros and cons. Anyway, no one here is saying that a 12 inch tonearm is per se a bad idea. We are just trying to find out why the OP is having problems with his new tonearm.

“All the alignment we’re doing is to get the record to drag the stylus across smoothly without too much error. That’s why someone came up with the idea of your long arm in the first place. A longer arm means a longer radius means less angle change across the record. This is all based on some guys idea. Its important not to get too caught up in some guys ideas”. MC

The 12” arm or 282mm effective length tone arm was developed by Micro Seiki and still, after more than 40 years, is very effective and one of the best. My TT is a MS BL-91L and the arm is an MS-505LS. Specifications follow:Effective Length 282 mm
Overhang 12 mm
Offset Angle 21.833°
Pivot to Spindle 270 mmNull Points 38.7 / 171.0 mm

I use an Allaerts MC-1 boron or Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge.

Summary is that the long arm is a very good and proven option. It is not just someone’s whimsical idea.
🇦🇺

To sum up, the following questions are up for grabs:(1) The definition of "P2P", a term mentioned by the OP in passing.  Which would possibly reveal that mcmanus is measuring pivot to stylus tip, not P2S.
(2) The actual effective length of the tonearm.(3) The (remote) possibility that the wiring is dragging on the arm wand, or I'll add another, that the pivot bearings are too tight, preventing free movement of the arm wand (although that would probably not result in the cartridge skating all the way across the LP surface).(4) Diamond tip has fallen off the cantilever; it happens.

After all this, ensure your diamond is still on the cantilever! That could explain the gliding across the grooves.

@millercarbon has it totally right when he said make boards up for yourself. I bought a piledriver drill for £50.00 bought the drill bits about another £30 total (for 3 different size arms). If using wood use HSS. I have bought blanks of Walnut and also Polycarbonate. I like Polycarbonate to work with - which surprised me.

This bloody COVID 19 has had the effect of really sharpening up my DIY skills.

You can post all the pics you want. Just have to start a system page. Like this https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

Oh come on guys, you knew it was only a matter of time ...

@mcmanus,

Are you sure you have a 12" arm???  A quick verification it to measure from the tonearm pivot to the end of the headshell - it should be very close to 12".  The next available size from Reed Reed 3P - Reed tonearms is a 10.5" - this arm is about 2" difference.  One item to be careful is that there is a difference between Mounting distance (which is likely what the template shows) and the Pivot to spindle distance which I addressed above.

I cannot post a pic, right? 

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case I'd say more like ten thousand.

Oldhvy, The OP says he has achieved the proper pivot to spindle distance of 296mm.  If so, why do you say it's too long? However, one explanation for his problems is a misunderstanding of the meaning of "pivot to spindle" or a mis-measurement of the distance or an improper template (but the OP says he is using the correct template).  This is why I asked about the definition of "P2P".  The other possibility is that he has mistaken pivot to spindle distance for pivot to stylus tip distance. This would result in a mounting error of about 15mm (typically) in P2S and could account for the weird results.

The arm is to long. If you have to move it to the right.. Nothing more nothing less. 9" arm, you'll be fine OR call the factory and tell them you're using a 12" arm and they will (hopefully) have a pedestal you can drop in place.

If not 9-10" model tonearm...

Regards..

What is P2P definition?

The only way to get teh cart to line up is to not have the P2P as specified. If the pivot point is moved a few inches off the Reed specification then the cart lines up. But I cannot have both the P2P and the cart line up. 

"In reality, if you have the P2S set correctly, that should result in close to proper stylus overhang, and you should not need to do much twisting of the cartridge body at all, with respect to the Reed headshell, to get you into good alignment."


Correct -  I have a Reed model-specific and arm-specific template and when lined up it is not possible to have the cart fall within the grid specified by Reed for that arm. 

You wrote, "When I put the center pivot of the arm at the specified distance, 296mm..."  Are you saying that you can set up the tonearm such that the distance from the pivot point to the axis of the spindle is exactly or very nearly exactly 296mm and that 296mm is the recommended distance per Reed? (This is in contrast to Miller Carbon's major assumption, which was that you are off by a "few inches".)  It's very important to clarify this issue.  Anyway, IF you have been able to achieve the specified 296mm for P2S (shorthand for "pivot to spindle"), that is good.  Having done that, what are you using for a template to guide you in setting up the offset angle of the cartridge?  Be sure you are using a protractor that is appropriate for the P2S distance of 296mm.  If you are using a garden variety template, it may be designed for shorter tonearms, which would result in the problem you note, that you cannot achieve the proper angle for the cartridge.  In reality, if you have the P2S set correctly, that should result in close to proper stylus overhang, and you should not need to do much twisting of the cartridge body at all, with respect to the Reed headshell, to get you into good alignment.

Thanks for all the troubleshooting with so limited facts. The cartridge is Triangle Arts Apollo. The TT is Hanss. 

I only exceeded the weight of 2 grams as an experiment to see what it would take to get the stylus to sit in the grove. It went around for 1/2 a revolution at a slightly heavier weight. 

I am using a homemade arm board made from the current armboard and a walnut piece temporarily until I get one from the Hanss. That may affect the fidelity but not the functionality. 

The anti skate setting might be an issue. I adjusted it in and out and it did not make a material difference. I think the angle of the arm is far enough off that it is not within anti-skate adjustment range. 

If we go back to basics - When I put the center pivot of the arm at the specified distance, 296mm, the cart cannot be turned far enough on the tone arm shell head to be adjusted within the grid. So isn't that my core problem? Maybe I over complicated my "ask". Any solutions to that? 

What's off is your spindle to pivot distance, which you already know is "a few inches outside spec". 

So here's the deal. All the alignment we're doing is to get the record to drag the stylus across smoothly without too much error. That's why someone came up with the idea of your long arm in the first place. A longer arm means a longer radius means less angle change across the record. This is all based on some guys idea. Its important not to get too caught up in some guys ideas. Except mine. You can do that with mine. 

Okay so you got this very long arm and its mounted too close to the spindle. So what you do, take your arm and swing it out over the platter and look where the stylus falls. Look where it falls relative to the arm pivot point. Look where it falls relative to an imaginary line drawn from the spindle through the stylus. Look how cockeyed that line is with the arm. That's your problem right there. 

Because the minute the record starts spinning its dragging on the stylus, and look at that angle. See? The spinning record is pulling the stylus towards the center. This happens on all spinning records by the way. Its just that normally the angle is almost square because the spindle to pivot distance is correct and so the arm doesn't go skating across the record like yours is doing. 

You're trying to fix this with excess VTF which seems logical but in reality is only making the situation even worse. Because its this skating force that is pulling it in. The greater the VTF the greater the force. Not to mention you're putting excess force on the cantilever, putting it out of alignment, but that's getting a little deep for you for now. 

Get a bigger piece of wood. Move that arm out where it belongs. Do not ever exceed recommended VTF. Skating problems are corrected with anti-skate adjustment, not VTF.

Something is "off", if you set the VTF to 2 g (for what cartridge?) and the tonearm flies across the grooves toward the spindle. Any VTF greater than 2g is very unusual (high) for most of the commonly used MC cartridges. As Antinn says, check anti-skate. Have you applied any anti-skate force at all? But even with zero AS, I would be surprised that the stylus cannot sit down in the groove well enough to avoid the issue you describe. Your best bet might be to consult a local friend who can actually visit your home and help you figure it out. Or the dealer that sold you all that expensive stuff. Don’t give up on it.
EDIT.  It just occurred to me that you also ought to check the routing of the wires that exit the arm wand at the rear and eventually provide outputs to the phono stage.  If the wires at the arm wand exit hole are twisted or torqued in some way, they could be responsible for an excessive side force that would be pulling your tonearm inward toward the spindle.  But Reed tonearms are well designed to avoid that issue, so this is a shot in the dark.

Do you have the Reed 3P manual?  If not - download here -  Bedienungsanleitung-Tonarm-Reed-3P.pdf (bohne-audio.com) and follow directions accordingly.  

When you say the turntable can handle a 12" tonearm - does it have an adjustable armboard - each tonearm has a specific mounting pattern.  

For the tonearm to fit, the pivot to spindle distance must be set to a distance of  295.6mm (roundup to 296mm).  Refer to the above manual to determine the pivot point - Figure 5 Item 1.  Make sure you have all adjustments initially set as specified in the manual - including Anti-Skate; too little of which may cause the tonearm to fly to the spindle.  

Thanks for the encouragement. I was beginning to get the impression that the vinyl hobby was for machinist who loved to tinker and then played music when they got bored :) 

On a more serious note, I did, in fact, use a piece of walnut and cantilevered it so the arm could go out as far as it needed to so that the cart would line up with the grid. The pivot-to-spindle range is a few inches outside the spec but there is a template provided by Reed that measures the "resting arm" position of the tone arm to the spindle and that matches. I set the weight at 2 grams per spec and spun an album. The needle flew across the album toward the spindle gliding on top of the grooves. I rechecked the weight 3 times each time the exact same thing happened. I increased the weight incrementally making it heavier until it engaged in the groove and of course it sounded horrible. 

I did confirm that the TT will accommodate a 12" arm. If that is the case, I should not need to have a cantilever.  But clearly the arm when seated on the TT normal position was not in adjustment range for the cart ... If I only use one bolt to attach the cart to the arm, then it will adjust but I am sure it needs both points of attachment. 

This might be related ... I am having trouble setting the height of the arm. It has an adjustment up and down almost 1/2 inch on the arm controls. If I lower it enough for the arm to be parallel per my gauge, then the arm is too low and the lift does not raise it above the platter. So I raised it up enough so that it clears the platter but it is about 1 mm off of parallel.

Could the problem be that I need to install the arm higher than the normal height for the table? The walnut piece is at the same height as the built-in arm holder. 

On a related note, Reed specific, the arm sits in a gyro type set up with 3 tiny pins that rest in 3 tiny sockets. I can adjust the height of the pins slightly with an allen wrench. The issue is that the slightest touch throws the pins out of the sockets. I thought tightening them would make the system less fragile but it does not seem to. Returning the arm to the holder regardless of how gentle, often throws the pins out of socket. It does not seem likely that this is normal. This is probably Reed specific and I should reach out to them. In any case, all my experiments above were with the pins correctly in the sockets.

So between the table, phono stage, arm, cart and record cleaner, I have a small fortune into little vinyl. I cannot play an album. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

I read the thread, and I am still a bit puzzled as to the nature of your problem, because the Reed tonearms do not require drilling a large diameter hole to accommodate a vertical shaft.  They are all top-mounted, so far as I know. Which is to say they have a flat base that sits entirely on top of the tonearm mount board.  So, it seems to me that if your tonearm mounting board permits the greater P2S distance of a 12-inch tonearm vs your previous shorter tonearms, then you cannot have a problem, save the problem of drilling three small screw holes for the base of the Reed in a new location.  On the other hand, if the mounting board does not have space far enough away from the spindle to mount a 12-incher allowing for proper P2S, then you have a bigger problem than just the fact that the existing holes are in the wrong place; you would need somehow to extend the mounting board in that direction.  Which is it? Or what am I missing?

The sound is amazing but the complexities are daunting.

Its not that bad. It only seems like there are a lot of things to learn because right now you haven't learned many of them and so they seem to be coming at you from all sides. Its really not that many though and each one of them is really very simple once you break it down. 

Also while going through the learning curve it will serve you well to keep in mind what you already know: The sound is amazing! 

I have been buying, and playing, and modifying, and even building turntables since 1976. In all that time I have yet to hear the one that didn't sound amazing. There was even one time a gramophone in an antique store we put a 78 on and even that was amazing! 

I bring this up because too many audiophiles obsess so much on doing it perfect they miss out on a lot of opportunities to Just Do It! You could for example cut any old piece of wood up, put some holes in it, screw it to your table, and mount your arm to that. Just to hear how it sounds like that. Won't be much work (he said, having everything just sitting there in his shop all ready to go) and you will gain untold experience just doing it. And hearing it. 

Then send it back. Unless you fall in love. Which you might. In which case you go looking for better wood to make it all pretty and nice. Or send it back anyway figuring the shorter one will be all pretty and nice, and probably sound pretty much the same. Which you will never know- unless you try.

Yes, something is not right. The spindle to pivot distance can be drawn as a complete circle around the platter and anywhere on that line is ok to mount the tonearm pivot. Of course most locations will present other issues. But if it is drawn at the proper radius any position will give you the correct geometry.
BillWojo

mcmanus

... My pivot to spindle distance is correct according to the template that came with the Reed. I mentioned the 6" away from the TT to indicate how far away the arm would have to be to fit into the alignment grid ...

Something is just not right. If the pivot-to-spindle distance is correct, then it should allow you to properly set the overhang, by definition.

Thanks for all your help. My pivot to spindle distance is correct according to the template that came with the Reed. I mentioned the 6" away from the TT to indicate how far away the arm would have to be to fit into the alignment grid. So I guess my arm is not compatible with my TT. I will contact Hanss. I made it 30 years in this hobby before I fell into the vinyl vortex. I guess I should count myself lucky. The sound is amazing but the complexities are daunting. Thank you all for helping this newbie. 

This is the Hanss T-30 HANSS ACOUSTICS T-30 (hanss-acoustics.com). From a casual view, your Reed 3P 12" tonearm is probably not going to fit on that turntable. Each turntable has allowable tonearm lengths that will work. Send Hanss and e-mail and ask them what is the longest tonearm pivot to spindle that will fit. If what they tell indicates that your Reed 3P 12" is not going to fit you have some options:

-return the Reed and get one that is a shorter length.
-have a plate machined to cantilever from the existing tonearm base to allow mounting the 12" Reed.
-buy a separate tonearm pod to allow using the Reed 12".

The tonearm must be mounted so that it has a fixed relationship between the TT spindle and the the tonearm pivot and that relationship should be very ridged. Any movement between the two points will be read as a signal being generated in the cartridge causing a blurring of the music. Remember, there is a lot of vibration being fed into the cartridge, It travels up into the tonearm. You don't want the tonearm vibrating around. It should be held secure.

BillWojo

So you took off a 9" or 10" and you’re installing a 12".

6" to the right? That is what you posted. Your setup is for a shorter arm?

If I’m hearing what your saying... Did I miss something?

I have to move close to 4" to the right. Changing from a 9 to a 12 on a TD124. I have to go outside the chassis to mount it. You aught to see it with a 16". Really!

Regards

you are going to have one shot at the hoop with tape, there is no second chance at proper location. think about some sort of guide pins to get it exactly right the very first time.

What do you mean? Your arm has VTA on the fly. Are you talking azimuth? Or...? Because if not what else is there?? 
Please note the very first thing I said was to make sure you have correct spindle to arm distance.

mcmanus

Any ideas on cartridge alignment? I spend an hour on forums and youtube and no one addresses the issue when the alignment falls outside the ability of the arm head-shell to adjust.

Your alignment issue is the result of an improper pivot-to-spindle distance. That's what needs to be corrected.

Any ideas on cartridge alignment? I spend an hour on forums and youtube and no one addresses the issue when the alignment falls outside the ability of the arm head-shell to adjust. Thanks. 

That's the stuff. It comes thick and thin. I would get one of each. Because right now it seems insane to pay so much for tape. But then you get it and only wish you'd bought more. And then when you do go to buy more its no longer $57 its $67 or whatever. No idea why but the stuff has been going up in price to where it is double a year ago and triple the year before that. When you can even find it. Tends to be back-ordered a lot.  

Works great on all the obvious places on a turntable, tone arm, motor, etc and also on speaker baskets and caps and circuit boards, insides of component chassis, behind speakers (way better gasket material), etc. It kills vibrations but not in the usual damping way that sounds kind of damped or rolled off, this does it by using the piezo electric effect to convert micro vibrations into heat. The signal remains while a lot of detail smearing grunge disappears and the result is a lot more detail and presence but by noise being subtracted. Remarkable stuff. Only wish it looked better. I try and hide it by putting it on the under side of the tone arm tube, underneath the arm base, basically anywhere it can't be seen. Otherwise I would wrap my whole arm in it!

The fO.q tape is available on ebay - $57 for a sheet. Does that sound about right? 

OK. The stereophile article does not show the other side where there is another mount that has 3 threaded bolt holes. I just used a screw and successfully attached the arm into one of the holes. The other holes do not line up but the one screw is holding it tightly and the arm is sitting on a base with good contact.

The mounting distance is right on per the template. BUT ... the cart will not line up, even at the extreme position on the head of the arm. It is off like 1/4" so not even close. It needs to turn clockwise more but it is at the max position. I took the arm off and moved it by hand and it would need to be 6" to the right of the turntable for the cart to be able to line up properly.

Thanks for your help on this Saturday. I really appreciate you both.

That was my fear- very small base, combined with a lot of mass off to one side, not good for tape. 

As for the vibration control aspect of it, just get that tape. You can thank me later.

Another way to go might be to find a thin template of wood you could screw down into the existing arm pod, that would accept wood screws to attach the Reed. You might need some washers to avoid the screw going too deep.

this is assuming you have sufficient play to adjust VTA height, it would still be less than ideal but likely better than tape. The least bad approach.

the top of the arm pod is not big enough to allow tape to fully grip the Tonearms base.

Hi. Thanks for your input. It is a Hanss t-30 (sorry for error) It does have an arm board that I can drill. I do not have a tap and die set so I'd end up using screws instead of machined bolts. 

I used double sided tape on my previous arm and it held very well, was rock tight and came off without a trace (gorilla tape). But I realized that it might compromise the vibration control. 

https://www.stereophile.com/turntables/hanss_acoustics_t-30_turntable/index.html 

drill new holes, or acquire a new arm board (if your tt uses arm boards) and have that drilled according to the template.

double backed tape will work, but it’s like using it to attach your phono cartridge. it will compromise things. the precision will be reduced.

i know Haas turntables exist, but somehow cannot find one to look at by searching. do they use arm boards? or is the tonearm base screwed directly to the plinth?

There's multiple solutions which in spite of what others will no doubt tell you the only way to know is to try and listen and hear for yourself.  

First of all let's make sure the problem with the holes isn't that the arm is in the wrong place. Use your preferred template or jig or tape to measure and locate the arm at the correct distance from the spindle. 

Yes your double-sided tape trick will certainly work. Its quick and cheap and simple and the biggest disadvantage is how hard it will be to remove should you ever want to do that. Some arms can simply sit in the mounting hole, their mass and the hole holding them in place. That's the way my Conqueror works. No screws. Lifts right out. Before doing anything else you will want to check this. If the center of mass of your arm is over the mounting base and hole then it will stay put all by itself. The Reed has a lot of the arm off to one side, so it might need to be fastened to stay put. You want to check this because if this is the case then over time your tape will come loose its just a matter of time. The safe sure bet is to use the arm as a template mark with a pencil and drill new holes.  

My preferred solution would be to get some fO.q tape, put that on the under side of the arm base, with another layer of fO.q tape on the table. Then drill your holes and screw the arm down, but only just snug not overly tight, and use a bit of fO.q tape to make some washers so the arm is held to the table in such a way it is practically floating held in place between the fO.q tape.