Rick is pointing out the obvious.Young people in general have a usable vocabulary of a shockingly minute size nowadays.Its not cool or hip to use an uncommon verb or adjective when a ten cent word will do.Just listen to the personas on radio who dont just dumb down vocabulary but ARE dumb and are unable to go into their word bag.Don't get me started.
«Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad» Rick Beato
He know better than me. He is a musician and i am not. I dont listen contemporary lyrics anyway, they are not all bad for sure, but what is good enough is few waves in an ocean of bad to worst...
I will never dare to claim it because i am old, not a musician anyway, i listen classical old music and world music and Jazz...
And old very old lyrics from Franco-Flemish school to Léo Ferré and to the genius Bob Dylan Dylan...
Just write what you think about Beato informed opinion...
I like him because he spoke bluntly and is enthusiast musician ...
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Times change. The poetic zeitgeist of the 60s is gone. The social, racial, and political lyrics zeitgeist of the 80s and 90s is pretty much gone. To @mahgister s point of their not being a "collective positive movement" - well, he’s right. We have become a niche culture in music and just about everything else. And there are few artists that can speak to many different niches. And unfortunately, this thread also exposes the tendency of the older generation to dismiss and be wary of Music they didn’t grow up with. |
It seems some people dont get the point... 1----There is plenty of great lyrics today because the number of talented people in all genre is roughly the same % 2----But there is not a collective positive movement created by the lyrics as it was a case few generations ago... ( negativity is easy to create by sheer provocation but it is not art) 3---- And if we compare the poetic content and value of what is heard and favored on many medias the levels of quality is lower ... Thats Beato point as i understood it ..
My own takes about this : The corporations power over the artist deveopment and content are more heavy nowadays and it result in a mechanization of the minds and of the products... Jonie Mitchell and Madonna are not the same on artistry level... Sorry ... But the 2 are very talented.... One is an artist on a musical and poetical way , the others is more an influencer and a provocative asset... She sell herself as a product...Many "artist" nowadays sell themselves as a product name...
Now the poetic value of a lyrics is a litterary quality not a question about taste or nostalgia ...It is not related to the singer talent either, some vocalist could move crowd reciting the telephone book ...
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@devinplombier Yeah, found Bohren on Bandcamp. You might also like Throwing Snow, rather electronica, but no words either. His other project Snow Ghosts (synthy neofolk?) is also great, IMHO, but that has folk-leaning female vocals. |
Re: "Good Morning, Little School Girl" While the Grateful Dead was one of many groups and artists who performed and/or recorded it, the song and lyrics are generally credited to Sonny Boy Williamson. Like most blues songs, however, Sonny probably borrowed and adapted it from someone else who borrowed it from another someone else and so on and so forth. |
@devinplombier Actually Swiss (Basel), living in Santa Barbara, just north of those two clubs. Don't know either of them. Will have a listen. Thanks for the pointers. Just listened to the new Rue Oberkampf, also Hackedepicciotto, Necrø (still waiting for record to arrive) are currently high on my list. And Videotraum from Hamburg. In case you are interested I have a darkwave centered insta account with music reviews of odd acts: @undaobscura |
I actually saw Nena on stage at the Roxy or the Whisky a Go Go, can't remember which. She was great. Thanks for dredging up that memory :) Being into darkwave and from Germany, I am sure you already know and maybe enjoy Bohren und der Club of Gore. A forum member here turned me on to them recently, and I've been listening (almost) nonstop. No lyrics and none necessary, the music is enough. |
Actually, @tyray , the Jim Croce lyrics that I posted came to my mind after I read your post
and truly, nothing negative was meant to be implied.
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Oh! @immatthewj you were referencing @8th-note...My bad! |
That you mention Billie Eilish, I think she is in a category all her own, to me...The only other person I can think of that even comes close to her writing skills at such a young age is her brother... And her singing, I don’t think she knows how good she is, yet...Her phrasing is crazy... I like what Sza does too. She kinda reminds mey of a thinking woman’s Josephine Baker...If one can imagine that. |
@tyray , LOL! I didn't shoot you those old Jim Croce lyrics because I thought you were a 70 YO 'boomer; I just thought, after reading your last post, that you might appreciate the sentiment. @devinplombier , funny that you should mention Billie Eilish. A few years ago I made a friend on another audio forum (a forum that I never go to anymore) and he is not someone who I would imagine liking Billie Eilish. A while back ago we touched base about some music and some vacuum tubes, and he recommended her to me. I almost forgot about that. |
Uhhh, I did NOT say I was a 70 year old boomer.. That was someone else and I think that post was taken down, maybe? We were very fortunate, Dad served in WW2 and was able to get decent employment with the federal government and he had one of those I was think it was a Motorola console? I think they were called that? And he let my sisters play whatever they wanted, but that was only on Saturday, maybe Sunday, and when he was working during the day. He wasn't hard on them he just liked to keep them busy around the house because they were his girls...It's funny cause I remember as a little kid Pops, had a lot of Frank Sinatra 78rpm's he collected over the years as a young man. |
@devinplombier Funny you mention Hante. Have to agree on her singing in English not adding to the music. But love the label synth religion with slogan forgive me for my synths, which is a really funny play with words. |
So the gist of this thread appears to be that a Steely Dan-loving YouTuber decreed that "Today’s Lyrics Are Pathetically Bad". This is such a laughably stupid statement that it was soon amended to "maybe there are good lyricists working today, but they're obscure, they don't sell, and they're all 40 or 60 anyway, while the young ones who sell out arenas all suck". Billie Eilish is not my cuppa, don't worry. But to be fair, her lyrics are more than passable, her music perfectly serviceable, and at 23 she's more successful than all the nostalgia acts mentioned in this thread put together.
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Beato is just a guitarist musician among others.. I never say that he was more...He does not claim more either. But i like his video because he had no pretense save saying his mind in a funny way... And he know guitar music and a little more ... I select this video as start of discussion not because he was an authority but because for me there is truth in what he tried to convey ...
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In the sixties and seventies there was a measure of musical artists that went "...yes, but do they have anything to say?" This was certainly applied to Dylan and many of the song writers mentioned in this thread. And many of them did. History may well decide that that period was a cultural renaissance and that we were blessed with a lot of music that not only entertained but also spoke to the political times and the human experience on many levels. It seems much of the lyrical content today only seeks to entertain. In 1970 Grateful Dead lyricist Robert Hunter wrote ‘Ripple’, ‘Brokedown Palace’, and ‘To Lay Me Down’ in a single day! As he himself said: "Oh would that those days would come again. Oh, they will-but not for me." |
@immatthewj, I had older sisters too! I remember my father getting my ’big baby sister’ a small 45 rpm record player for her birthday I think, and believe or not, my Dad got a policeman he knew to cord off with wooden horses right in front of the house in the middle of the street so she could have a ’sock hop’ for her as that’s what she wanted! Amazing, you got that memory out of me! I couldn’t’ have been more than 5 years old. That 45 rpm record player was the one first in the neighborhood that any young person had got and he made a way for her to have a blast of a time! Wow! I think those positive thoughts made my blood pressure go down some! And yes it was that same sister that got me Yeah, yeah she loves you too a host of other Beatle records as the years went by.
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@8th-note , I recall my two older sisters listening to them (The Beatles and Dylan) when I was growing up. There was a pretty good age gap between them and me, and back then I didn’t have a real appreciation for music, however I did find a lot of what they listened to interesting, and I now credit their (my sisters) influence to be why I became a fan of Dylan as I grew older. Speaking of offensive lyrics, I remember them playing a protest song quite loudly (my oldest sister’s bedroom had the "stereo" and it was down in the basement) and what I remember was "GIMME AN F!! [. . .] WHAT’S That SPELL!!" I remember that rather clearly. I think my oldest sister did that to piss my folks off. I also remember some interesting songs off of the Hair (was it a sound track?) album. The one I am thinking of at the moment was titled Sodomy. The line that got my attention back then was, ". . . masturbation can be fun . . .". I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason she played that was also to get on my folks ’nerves. |
No problem Matt, the only reason I looked it up is cause I’m getting older and I thought my mind might have been playing tricks on me! Cause I sure did remember hearing
right at the end of the recording, not only when I was a kid but later in life when I was still doing a lot rockin out! @mahgister, of course we’re good big brother! I looked up Beato and it seems he’s had a recording studio in Stone Mountain, Georgia since 1995? Funny thing is, I’ve been in the Metropolitan area of Atlanta, Georgia since 1979 and I’ve never even heard of the guy? And I’ve seen just about every major recording artist in and from the Atlanta, Georgia area and among a host of other shows of touring artists and been to every music venue in the area also. Heck, I’ve even been a ’Roadie’ in my very young life just to get into concerts for free! And I still listen to rock & roll, public college, r&b, funk, and a little rap radio stations.
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@immatthewj - My parents didn't like long hair, especially when I let my hair grow, but they were pretty tolerant of new music. You mention Dylan and the Beatles and they are a great contrast with most of the popular music of today. The lyrics from the early Beatles were simple, clever, love songs and the tunes were catchy. Dylan put out some amazing poetry that was hard to dismiss by the older generation at the time. Much of the stuff coming out now is either cliche ridden drivel or profane and abusive. There are good lyrics in some of the alternative artists but it takes a lot of work to seek them out. |
@oberoniaomnia is making an excellent point about the relative importance of lyrics. I grew up listening to music in a language I did not understand, so I too treated the voice as an instrument. Those voices conveyed feeling and emotion, but about what? I did not know, and that was okay. Later, I discovered that songs I really liked actually had embarrassing lyrics and I had to stop liking them, and the other way around. To this day, I enjoy listening to music in languages in which I am not fluent or that I don’t understand at all. I like darkwave too, and I don’t know why darkwave artists insist on singing. A good example is Hante., her lyrics are terrible (she writes in English, a language she obviously does not know well) and her voice is awful, but she’s a fabulous DJ. If only she kept her music instrumental.
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@8th-note , you've got five years on me, but how did your dad feel about Dylan and The Beatles? I remember that my dad did not like either of them--not at all. |
I won't argue with that; I was only remembering what someone who was theoretically an "insider" stated in a book. |
No offence! You are right and knowledgeable more than me about Rap meanings and history... My point is about the mechanization of music , musicians and the public... The point made by Beato... There is genius poets in jazz music and songs as there is in all genre rap included...Even nowadays for sure... My point stemming from Beato video is about mechanisation and manufacturing of lyrics and music ... I had my taste but i am not deaf... I did not like blues for example till i listen Hooker and Waters and few others... There is genius everywhere... But there is also by the industry growing monster a mechanization of mind and public... And this mechanization reach a point of great power over artists and public molding their minds in the last 30 years...
It is my opinion but i am not an informed musician...
We need frogman ...
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Now of course there was ’gangster rap’ that emerged in the 70’s but from that came the ’Neo Soul’ movement which was a subset of (gangster) rap which got it’s start in the mid 80’s. In this particular genre those young kids brought back the cafe style of rap as a softer form of rap where poetry, books, coffee and wine was shared amongst like minded folks. They even had a snap your finger technique they would do after each person’s rap of poetry. And yes, sometimes it was with backing bands and sometime it was not. You never hear about that subset of rap because it didn’t make the evening news. Nevertheless, it was massively important to the community because it brought us these young musicians and for a short time there was a New York city based form of rap called ’New Jack Swing’. And out of the out of the ’New Jack Swing’ era we got a type of music that these new artist called ’Neo Soul’. And this movement gave us artist such as: Erykah Badu D’Angelo Lauryn Hill Floetry Jill Scott The Fugees And many, many others. Was this Rap persay? Yes, because they not only rapped but sang too. It was all connected and this was the first time musicians played live and studio sessions with instruments over recorded music ’samples’ or what some call ’beats’ today. Rap has evolved just like any thing else, and it’s a shame that only the bad things are remembered, by some. And I will admit that some of this so called rap music that some put out is straight garbage. But I will not let an entire genre of music music be categorized, judged and generalized by some of that garbage. |
I get it . NOT a statement about my feelings on Rap one way or the other, but there is a big difference (in my book, anyway) between lyrics with “raunchy” sexuality, usually by way of innuendo or double entendre and lyrics that demean and debase by way of raunchiness, misogyny and/or suggestions of violence. The latter is the Rap that I can do without. |
@mahgister, you are making my point for me. James Brown, himself used rap in his music, and in fact he was called ’Brother Rap’ in my community. Issac Hayes, used rap in his music, and also in fact he was called ’Ike The Rapper’ in, my community. The Jazz artist Gil Scott heron introduced to the world to the rap group The Last Poets who appeared on Gil Scott-Heron’s 1972 album .Black Spirits - Festival Of New Black Poets In America and in that album The Last Poets recorded "And See Her Image In The River" and "Song of Ditla, part II" live at the Apollo Theatre in Harlem, New York for the album. Rap music, just like some parts of Jazz, comes from a community in the early ’50’s or even earlier maybe, as the correct date is not known. But it came about because young people wanted a place to just ’Hangout’ as it were. All you had to have was a nickel (5¢) to get a cup of coffee and some cigarettes to sit in little ’Hip’ cafe and socialize. That’s it. Folks would recite poetry with or without a band. As they (we) still do to this day. @mahgister I’m trying not to be rude. This rap stuff is a long part of my history, culture and community and I think I may know more about it than you do. And it gets a little frustrating, at times when someone who’s not of my culture, speaks as if they know more about Rap than I do, and doesn’t even listen to the music genre, and writes and speaks about Rap, as if they do! No offense here, I’m just trying to exchange knowledge of a music idiom that I have a familiarity with, in a positive way of course, that’s all. The reason why rap music can be so raunchy at times is because it has always been apart of the ’culture’. For gosh sakes! Has anyone ever listened to Ma Rainey or Bessie Smith! And they had a backing band too!
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'While some interpretations of the song would like to see it primarily as a celebration of a drug counterculture, any pretence the phrase “Brown Sugar” is other than a reference to a black woman falls away in the final lyric of the studio album.'
'This combination of sexual imagery and illicit drug references in the song’s lyrics contributes to the culturally transgressive place the Rolling Stones occupy in popular music history.' |
There is great music in rap or R&B but this genre are very difficult to do with musical mastery... Why ? Because they are as powerful than instinctually simple... It takes genius not ordinary musician and singer...Sorry... Who can rival Muddy Waters singing blues ? Not many singers... I am not a blues afficionado at all but i like Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker and very very few others... I like them because they are great artist not because they sang blues... For me they are the blues in a way no other one can be...
Then there is geniuses in all genres... But i dont like most genres only few geniuses...
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I here you Big Brother @mahgister, but this may surprise you. Today, Rap and (modern) R&B music is played not only on AM, FM internet (stations) streamers but also in different languages, all over the world. Rap and the so called (modern) R&B ain't going away. I come to audiogon with an open palette and try very hard not to be negative or combative in anyway. But sometimes...You gotta...Just, stand up...As Bob Marley would say. |
I had to do a google search because I’ve lost track of the years, but Justin Townes Earle’s first CD release was in 2008, and according to Wiki, he followed that with seven more. I admit that I haven’t heard everything that he did, but I listened to a public radio station that played his stuff and I thought that what I did hear was pretty good. And all of it from the 21st century. |
As an aside, back in nineteen eighty and something I read Up And Down With The Rolling Stones (because the review in Playboy seemed interesting) which was theoretically authored by an "insider" and I remember the author claimed that Brown Sugar was referring to unrefined heroin. |
Language exist in social context... Muddy Waters wrote great lyrics we called blues classics ... but the same thing today said by an another voice with the same words will be ridiculous. Then what define good lyrics and bad one are not only the individual singer but the social context and specific era....And the microtonal accents of his vocal chords....The same text read by X will sound atrocious and read by Y marvellous...
Poetry lives also in time eras... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyjRslYlC3A
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"Sweet Little Sixteen" by Chuck Berry (1958) Oh and Chuck wrote a plethora of pedo type rock songs. But hey, you’ve got to have somebody to blame, right? "Run for Your Life" by the Beatles (1965) "Good Morning, Little School Girl" by the Grateful Dead (1967) ’Good morning little schoolgirl, can I come home with you? Tell your mama and your papa I’m a little schoolboy too - Come on now pretty baby I just can’t help myself. You’re so young and pretty I don’t need nobody else.’ "Young Girl" by Gary Puckett & the Union Gap (1968) "Brown Sugar" by The Rolling Stones - Do I really need to post the lyrics here? "Christine Sixteen" by Kiss (1977) Oh and let’s not forget about Ted Nugent. A guy who by his own admission said in a 1977 High Times magazine article that he faked symptoms (being unhygienic to appear mentally unfit) and used meth before his military physical to get out of serving. And to this day is a ’highly regarded’ rock & roller in many other ahem, "circles" of high regard. There’s a video of him and his daughters discussing his interactions with teen girls who were about the age of his girls when he was touring. And in a word Disgusting, indeed. "Jailbait" by Ted Nugent (1981)
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They just don't write great songs like this any more:
Well I met him on a Sunday (oooooo) |
The problem is this : "meaning" is conveyed in language not on an uni-lateral way but in a multi-polar way ...Meaning exist not on one level but is articulated on many levels, from phonology to pragmatic levels... Grounded in biology and in the body gestures rythms and vocal gestures rythms and tones are the poetical level of meaning... Then there is a syntaxical level in speech which has nothing to do with the concept of syntax in the formal language, because human speech syntax is not a "formal" machine even if it can be analysed formally as Chomsky did. ( Gustave Guillaume goes deeper here) At the top there is analogy which is irreducible to logic no more than metaphor... ( A.I. use statistical engines to decodes it not logic) The scientific prosaic meaning is a mere half part of language meaning...The most efficient part but not the only and more important meaningfulness...( try to imagine a world of robot communication to understand my point , human social fabric is not a hive )
What is poetry ? Not non sense as superficial look can put it, but deep meaning : " a felt change of consciousness" caused by the way we use words said Owen Barfield in "poetic diction".. Litterature is as powerful as equations. Why did Grothendieck used the metaphor"dessins d’enfants" to describe the mathematical concept of some schemes ? Because it speak more directly about the meaning intended and it convey the way the mathematician mind felt the change from the top of the geometrical iceberg draught by a child to his inside hidden depth. https://www.ams.org/notices/200307/what-is.pdf
The meaning of poetry even when i dont understand the Farsi language in a song for example is there anyway between sounds...I "understand" it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS065XPSCFc
My point was that poetry in popular music is as much important as music and part of it... If the language degenerate in a culture the rest degenerate, even if we had A.I. and especially if we had A.I.
When we speak badly or partially staying on one level instead of using language multidimensionality we think badly... There is a difference between a bad journaslist and a great poet or a great thinker, but a common point : linear annoying day to day prose.
«We never fall in love "in" prose»--Groucho Marx |
Disclosure - I'm a 70 year old boomer and I'm becoming crotchety in my old age. Also, I'm a big fan of Beato and I've watched quite a few of his videos. He's a musical expert and he has interviewed many of my favorite musicians. I have SeriusXM in my car and when I'm on a longer drive I occasionally listen to the current POP station or Hip Hop or another station with new music. The lyrics of many of these songs, especially modern Hip Hop/R&B are absolutely horrible. They are venal, vulgar, misogynistic, and disgusting. Some are just banal but there is a pretty big subset of lyrics that were unimaginable 40 years ago. I drive along at 70n mph with my mouth agape hardly believing that I'm actually hearing what I'm hearing. If you have SeriusXM or a streaming service where you can play this current music I recommend that you break out of your bubble and listen to this stuff to get a sense of what young people are hearing. As Huey Lewis sang, "Sometimes bad is bad." |
These are four singer/songwriters/guitarist who have been doing it at a high level for decades: Dave Alvin, Janis Ian, Richard Thompson and Joan Armatrading. But let's talk Steely Dan. There's a video where Rick Beato talks about how the song "Aja" changed what he thought popular music could be. The man loves Steely Dan. There are numerous video where he gets deep into The Dan Universe. Becker/Fagen wrote some wonderful lyrics. Give a listen to "Pearl Of the Quarter", "Glamour Profession", "Cousin Dupree" or "Lunch With Gina". They were storytellers. "From the Bottom" has an detailed video of the bass playing on Fagen's "The Nightfly". If you're serious about the album, it's a must watch. |
@bdp24 - I think we’re talking about two very different things. I’m aware of just about all the artists you mentioned and I do stay fairly up to date on the new young artists entering the scene. Like you, my tastes lean toward the catch-all Americana genres and there are certainly a lot of them who are very talented and who are putting out some excellent music. And yes, there are also plenty of "old-timers" who have been around for a long time and who continue to produce quality stuff. But of the younger group, many of whom are terrific artists, how many of them are writing consistently great songs with lyrics that are anywhere near as sophisticated and memorable as those by Dylan, Simon, Morrison, et al? For example, I really like Billy Strings a lot and he he’s written some fine songs, but has he come up with a Tom Thumb’s Blues or Rave on John Donne or Me & Julio? Do the young songwriters of today write stuff that you can listen to over and over again and find something new to appreciate every time? Maybe they are, but I haven’t heard them yet. |
The only place I’ve seen or heard of this guy is from a youtube algorithm. Expert in music? I don’t know?