To cryo or not to cryo

But how many people (videophiles?)"cryo" the PC on that same TV and then claim that the picture is better?
Bob P.

Perception is underrated. Example: How do you buy a TV? You walk into the store and say to the salesman, let me see some of your best TVs. Then you look at 3 or 4 TVs and you pick the one you think has the best picture. At no time do you ask the salesman a technical question (How many pixels per inch? LoL) or ask to see the spec sheet. I.e., you make your choice based solely on your perception.

That's the ticket. Now we at least have a starting place that's not based on perception.

Ross, seems to me I just gave you a measurable difference above relating to lowered resistance in wire/receptacles following cryo treatment. Does that not count? Now if you want to tell me I can't hear that measurable difference, or that I am imagining it then we are in exactly the same boat that all these cryo threads end up in. As I said, search the archives, or better yet, do some real research or experimentation with cryo yourself. Here's a site with some interesting info (note it's from SUNY at Farmingdale and not from a cryo company):

http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/cryogenictreatment.html

Also note the remarks with respect to welding and copper tips, which may explain in part the reason power cables, interconnects and speaker cables all sound different to me following cryo treatment. As to CD's, I have no idea why they would sound so different (perhaps reduction in residual stresses in the CD resulting in better reading of the laser and less error correction, who knows and I don't care).

If measurements were all that were necessary to make great audio, I'm sure I'd be happy with a Bose wave radio. And every piece of similar equipment at varying price points that measured the same would sound the same. Science could explain everything and we'd all have perfect sound on the cheap. Believe me, I certainly don't subscribe to the theory that you have to spend huge amounts of $$ to put together a satisfying audio system. My system is pretty modest by Audiogon standards. There are lots of tweaks that I'm skeptical about and wouldn't pop the money for and there's certainly a lot of overpriced crap in audioland. I just don't think that cryo is one of them. Considering the fact that you can probably cryo every piece of wire and all receptacles that your system is running on for the price of 2 or 3 new CD's or records, I figure it's a huge bang for your buck in terms of performance. Then again that's based on my subjective experience and my ears.

Hdm,
You are exectly right. Without scientific facts this forum degenerates into "He said / I heard" nonsense. That is my point exactly.
For instance, you give us the example of freezing your CDs. I have no doubt that you honestly think this helps. Maybe its great - I don't know. But tellling us this in a vaccum does no good at all. What I am trying to spur is a dicussion about WHY it makes the CD sound better. Because if it REALLY does sound better then there should be some physical, measurable change. We need articles or explanations from actual scientists as to what (if anything) is happening at the molecular level that make a laser read a CD better after you make it really, really cold.
Of all the hobbies I have been envolved in none is as riddled with pseudo-scientific gimmickry as Audio. I think the reason is that audio quality tends to be subjective by nature. After all, if you say that this tweek or that tweek "sounds better" to you then who am I to say it doesn't and no audiophile wants to admit that he "just can't hear it". The problem is that just because you say it sounds better doesn't mean it really does (in a physical sense). In short I am trying to back up subjective judgement with scientific evidence.
(I use the term "you" a lot but its just for illustration. I'm not picking on you personally)

Ross

Double4w: There's a ton of information in the archives here, including a review of the World Power cryoed Hubbell 5362 which I wrote a number of years ago. I've since moved from that outlet to Hubbell 8200H's which I've had cryoed locally as I slightly prefer that outlet to the Hubbell 5362; my review of the 5362 will give you a sense of what you can expect.

I've also cryoed every piece of wire in my system (power cables, speaker cables, interconnects) with similar results. I cryo all my CD's as well, treating them with Auric Illuminator following the cryo. Even my wife, who is a research technician, does not have much interest in my music or equipment, and, as a result is rather skeptical, can easily hear the difference between a cryoed and non-cryoed CD. I've spent time in the past in cryo threads which ultimately end in the same kind of "he said this-he said that" BS. I'm fortunate to have a cryo facility close by and it is a dirt cheap tweak that works for me. If someone else can't hear any difference, that really makes no difference to me. Inevitably, though, the vast majority of people on these threads who are critics of cryo or who denigrate the process have absolutely no experience with it.

Well Hdm, how does cryoing the recepticle help? Do you also cryo the house wiring? How about the breaker box or for that matter the toaster in the kitchen? Remember, everything in the house shares a common ground.
By the way, we weren't "shooting off our mouth". We were having a friendly discourse about metalurgical facts. Facts are something I notice your post is devoid of.
No Hdm, I wouldn't expect you to listen to my opinion (although I didn't offer one)your mind is clearly made up but the salient question is: given the total lack of evidentiary support; why should anyone listen to your opinion?

I reinterate; if anyone has any scientific articles then see if you can post them for all of our edification.

Hdm,what did you find after completing said experiment with the wire,and as to vouching for the 'efficacy' of your cryoed outlets,please do so here.I am interested in reading your 'findings'.P.s. here goes the 'ole' saw again.A 'myriad'of people have heard things with a myriad of 'tweaks' and such,some of whch I have personally tried,to no avail.

How could it work?

I never argued if it works or not, I never even mentioned a name. I simply found it interesting that a Government organization such as NASA is in the business of letting the private sector use its equipment for personal business, and if he chose to use NASA as an endorsment wich he did, as a tax payer I should have the right to find that interesting, no chuckles here just curiousity.

Well said HDM,my last post was bumped,Bob

Well said Hdm,cheers,Bob

I believe it's Albert Porter that has his outlets cryoed at NASA. You might want to check out Mr. Porter's reputation here before heading into chuckle mode-I am quite sure that he would not be stretching the truth. While I am not personally totally convinced that his NASA cryo is any better than cryo performed at other facilities, there are many people on Audiogon who have tried the outlet he treats (I use the same outlet personally cryoed at another facility) and can vouch for its efficacy.

Before you start shooting your mouth off, here's a suggestion. Take any piece of copper wire, and measure it's resistance with a simple, cheap ohmeter. Then have that piece of wire cryoed and measure it again. It's a cheap experiment (then again, you could have an interconnect or set of speaker cables or power cord cryoed for the same cost, so maybe you should just do that).

If you want to say it's a load of crap, fine, go ahead, but don't expect me to take your opinion seriously when there's a myriad of people with real experience with cryo who have heard the differences. Some people (they tend to be in the minority) don't like what it does, but at least they've tried it.

Chad, I think your instincts are good.

Somebody was selling "Cryoed" AC outlets that claimed if I recall they were done at NASA, not only is it probably a questionable investment, but is that even a legal endeavor?, I cant see NASA letting some guy use there equoipment for personal gain...atleast not with knowledge.

Yea, that happens sometimes. You should have put the oven on BAKE not MELT.
No worries, just put it in the freezer overnight and it'll firm up again although you might notice a little coldness in the midrange.

Gee, thanks Rrcpa.I read your piece,then put my amp in the oven to realign the molecules with heat just as you said.Guess what? yeah it realigned not just the molecules,but insulation and every d--- thing else.I 'gotta' quit reading these things!

You're half right Bob.
Metalurgists (and a lot of audiophiles) can hear just fine.
They just don't listen :-)

Rrcpa, please don't confuse things with facts!
Everybody knows that metalurgists can't hear. Perhaps, however, they can shoot.
Bob P

Cryoing shmyoing . . . I agree totally w/Rrcpa. Cryoing has no basis in science, and listening tests fail to prove that people can consistently distinguish a "molecularly-aligned" amp vs a non-molecularly aligned amp. Please folks, don't fall for the cryo %*&^ -- it just taints the hobby.

The cyro rage has made its way through many sports. Audio is actually late to the party. I was exposed to it in precision target shooting. All kinds of claims were made and guys were cryoing their barrels and even their bullets in the quest for the "Absolute Score". Sound familiar?

Then real life metalurgists started writing some quite deep and technical SCIENTIFIC articles in the Precision Shooting press which basically came down to this. Cryo does nothing. It does not "align" anything. Grain structure and other qualities of metals are modified with heat - not cold. Period.

Gradually, everyone in competitive shooting got enough empirical data (scores) from matches to see for themselves that there was no statistical difference in their guns performance. There are no more Cryo ads in shooting magazines.

If cryo did anything for the sound top end manufacturers would "treat" their gear before they sold it. They will do anything for better sound. That is what high end audio is all about.

If you really want to learn the FACTS then I would urge you to search the back issues of Precision Shooting magazine.
there were several articles by actual graduate metalurgists and I promise, they will convince you.

cryoing realigns molecules thru immersion or vapor processes which I wont bore you with technically.Several industries do this.Unfortunately its not black/white,but a gray area depending on who you talk to as far as results.Classifying it as an upgrade to your system depends on your point of ear.Let us know....

Douglass at Cryo-Nebraska (recommended by BPT) said either $3 or $4 a pound. The Pure Power Center is 5 pounds shipped, so it wouldn't cost more than $20 for the whole thing.

I'm just trying to figure out what it DOES!!

Surely it can't be completely subjective! It's not that expensive either. I'm just trying to find out from audiogoners who have a reasonable sense of objectivity.

But everyone loves the fool and his money until it's gone.

You gotta' love the relativists... nobody else does :)

It's just smoke and mirrors. If you think it sounds better, that's all that matters whether it does or not.

BPT has referred me to Cryo Nebraska, a firm that gives us a discount. They charge by the pound, believe it or not. I wouldn't be doing this on my own!

Porziob, cyro'ing [done properly] requires a great capital investment. Are there ANY manufacturers who do their own cryo'ing? No way that a company can void their warranty if their product WASN'T cryo'ed. If they will void the warranty for non-cryo'ing...STAY AWAY!!!

I understand there are right and wrong processes to properly cryo-treat a product. And it might benefit you to read up on the proper procedures and then ask Chris at BPT what his procedures are.

There is the somewhat rare chance that some damage could occur to one or more innards pieces. Therefore, if he does the cryo-treating as part of the purchase, you will be spared the expense of replacement should something go awry.

But to answer your question, if properly done, the answer is absotively, posilutely yes! to cryo-treating.

-IMO

yeah, have them do it; then if you don't like it you can get most of your money back as if they back it they can sell it.
The benies of cryo are easy to a/b. But some things are not recommended. Having the manu do it is very safe.

This way if the BPT doesn`t work, they can point to the lack of cryo or poorly done cryo. Why didn`t they mfg. it, cryoed.