OK, so let's say to cryo, now should the item be broken in for maximum effect beforehand?
To cryo or not to cryo
Hi All,
I searched the threads and couldn't find any dedicated to explaining and/or evaluating the benefits of having electronic gear cryogenically treated. I'm considering buying a BPT Pure Power Center, and the company strongly recommends I have the whole thing treated.
Is it worth it? What kind of benefits? Audible difference?
Thanks,
the rustler
I searched the threads and couldn't find any dedicated to explaining and/or evaluating the benefits of having electronic gear cryogenically treated. I'm considering buying a BPT Pure Power Center, and the company strongly recommends I have the whole thing treated.
Is it worth it? What kind of benefits? Audible difference?
Thanks,
the rustler
83 responses Add your response
I also have subjected the Cd's to various tortures,including the freezer,but that is not what you would call a cyro process which starts at -244 and goes down from there.That would be called something else depending on your neighborhood/circle of freewheeling friends.....yeah,Ziggy and his Jersy hustle may yet payoff for him,hard to say at this point.The timings off for his trip right now as the Twinkies and the Gophers scored first....cant wait for an openair DT ballpark,dont care who's playing what....sitting, watching the sun go down with a cold one,smelling the cigar-smoke.....where do you live?Cheers,Bob |
I hate THe dome. They better go open field only cause Ziggy keeps trying to get the state to approve a stadium. I think the lions are wimps to have the sad Ford field...its football. Numerous guys hear good results from their deep freeze with cd's. I kinda believe it but need to do the a/b. Not much skin off the cats back by popping them in the deep freeze. |
Rja: Looks interesting despite all controversial audio-related applications. And to think there was a time in our youth when watching PBS would have brought on laughter, pointing, and ridicule from peers. Now, if they would only bring back the National Geographic nudity I "grew" to enjoy and expect. Well, that, and the Sears Robuck Catalog underwear section. Don't act like you don't know what I'm talkin' 'bout! |
I'm not sure what the best temps are. From reading in forums guys say there deep freeze to fridge works effective for them. I have not done an a/b of it but may have to. It works for cd's according to many. Not sure, but I think maybe that article that came out by that guy in stereophile years ago about the benefits of cd's cryod. I believe the freezer may have been what was used. Maybe all the product needs is a deep freeze and slowly warmed up?? |
I have been using my deep freeze set on its coldest temp. The deep freeze is right next to a fridge in the basement so its easy and the wife don't miss that things go from the freeze to inside the fridge. I have only done cd's and dvd's at this point. Does it work...I dont know. But many that have a/b two cds say its a nice improvement. Its a free tweek and easy to do. I do have some scan speak woofers that have been going back and forth from the freezer to fridge at the current time. I will redo a pair of speakers sometime in a few weeks so until then...cryo them!! My wife asked me yesterday...."why are you cryo treating the speakers!" |
I have some experience with cryoed powercords. I think cryoed powercords sound more dynamic and noisefree ("blacker background") than their non cryoed counterparts and sound more extended in the frequency extremes, but at the same time they also lose some of the "musicality". So for me: no cryogenics! Chris |
I don't understand this verbal merry go round about cryo treating cables or equipment. If it sounds better, buy if not don't. I have cable that is cryo treated but I don't have any cable that is the same without the treatment. My philosophy is if it sounds better, get it if you can afford it. The person who sold me the cable said it made a slight improvement in sound, and I have no reason to doubt his opinion. My home made stand made an huge improvement in sound, I don't understand it, but I enjoy the sonic benefits. Cheers |
Another stab!As I asked in August of last year,and received no reply,please any of the proponents of cryo,if the claims of cryoing are absolutely rock solid,how would that make any difference if an outlet,even a power cord,etcetera were cryoed,but (using the adage that a chain is as strong as it's weakest link)none of the other 'links' in the chain were ?I assume there are scientists of various disciplines who post here,so surely at least 1 could enlighten a sincere layman on this point,no?Thanks in advance. |
Once again this is a question answered all too often by those who don't have a system that will reveal enough detail to let them hear differences so they must not exist. I have a dealer friend that had one of his monoblock amplifiers cryo treated, we teased him for a month about his posicle and how it sounded like crap, it was terrible. But then after about a month of playing it started sounding significantly more detailed and clean. He had to do the other one so they would match. The people who don't believe something works should ignore questions about the things they don't believe in spending their money on, the opinions they offer have nothing to bring to the table. |
Yes - cryo does benefit copper and brass for the purposes of better sound. Gold, silver and palladium appears to me to benefit little or even get worse in some cases. As Chris Ven Haus reports plated conductors are also a mixed bag. The naysayers are usually psychologically disposed to wanting the world to be fully explained and have an aversion to something that isn't - and have rarely tried to experience the issue for themselves. Then there are the gullible that want there to be new unexplained things and will buy on any marketing hype dreamed up. Both are simply classic personality types. Debate between them goes nowhere, and indeed as you say, cancel each other out. And they also create a lot of useless noise on these sites so that intelligent discussion is usually buried. But not too deep. I was not intending to contradict you Rja, just to report that with a bit of research there is indeed scientific evidence of the effects of cryo treatment and burn in, so we don't have to be confused by the meaningless cancelling out of opinions between the naysayers and the gullible. In fact I pretty much agree with your points. |
hello, I've enjoyed many responses, RedKiwi especially. Some of the others, "sell me a bridge" seem like a waste of reading time. However, why is it we can believe in the manipulation of !80 processing core !devices on a computer (this week's announcement) and refuse (some of the block heads I've known ) to believe that there is a difference in digital cables "because it's all just 1s and 0s". Steven Hawkin can think at his computer and type 2 letters per second. Why do I mention these things? Well, to say that there are things going on that we maybe yet cannot explain, but similar things are being manipulated and measured; and maybe someday we will be able to explain. Is there one person on her who hasn't heard the difference in digital cables? How can that be if it's all "just 1s and 0s"? We are still in the swamp if we accept that brass connectors are as good a conductor as copper, are as good as OFC, are as good as HCC, are as good a coductor as Silver. However, speed and depth are often difficult to obtain at the same time. Silver is a faster conductor, yet is the hystersis that you are avoiding, the worst thing? The difference in silver is how it is annealed. What is that, other than a the processing of the metal to make a better metal. It is like the difference between drawn and poured copper. Okay, all analogous? Maybe not enough for some, but those two, and cryo effects are in a close similarity but via different means. Who here does not believe in annealing? Does that person only believe because they read it in a way that pleased them? If it had been written in a manner that was "over their head" they'd come away without belief. For those of us who would say, that when molecules stop moving, they can settle into closer proximity; (a less than quantum explanation) is that good enough? A silver digital, can sound different than a copper one. Suspend disbelief if you've not heard it, and go try some. If you are in the "I must hear it" or the "I'll never hear it" then you've alread go a strong "mind over matter" and you can hear what you want, without a sound system, as it is only giving suggestions and not sound you are hearing. But lets go deeper, compare a high purity silver, with that same silver that has been gold plated. If you can, compare that to some "pure" (I can't even define that in this case) *gold wire and see if you do not hear a difference. Silver, copper, aluminum, and gold are the top 4 conductors. Try this, and tell me there is not a difference in sound. You should be able to do this in audio, or your system is two cups and a string. But you will most probably be able to tell this is the digital rhelm. Why? Someone more articulate can explain it. A big fan of cryo is Jim at P.A.D., Stu at Vampire can explain it, Ed Mitner was one of the first to use it; Mr. Wright, (his head teck, who disagrees with proffit margins) believes in cryo's effects. My AM listening Dad, can pick out cryo'd vs non cryo'd CDs (two copies bought at the same time one treated one not) he can also hear the difference between those treated by Geoff's chip and those not. It is actually a similar effect for those who've heard one and not the other. But unless you are a "Levinson, it must sound the best" or "there can't be a difference in something I choose not to believe" type; you may have to step up to the responsibility of experience. I have found every cryo'd a/b examination I've done to show it to be an audio improvement. Maybe somewhere it could make something lose depth wor weightiness; but I've not heard it. I say it sounds more like the upgrade from brass to OF copper jacks. "Just cleaner and clearer". Can anyone here explain how simple electronic theries speak for the differences in power cables? If we think about it as a bass cable, sure it all applies, and that's what it seems to sound like. But though it is only operating at 50-60 hz, the characteristics are that of the full range. So how does that equate? If you have the spare, time, (I;'ve done it) compare a silver outlet and a gold one. (redefine, ACME, without cyote and roadrunner stickers silver plated vs Furuteck Gold plated). it will possibly open your mind. Where is the sense in saying that something can't exist? If it is to fight for all of our good, so that we *sheeple are not taken by those who would want us to see the Emperor's new clothes" it in fact is worse. Those who can be fooled will, those who can be fooled and can afford may buy, those who can't afford won't, so it narrows the margin; and those who despite the campaining will still try to listen... will hear or not hear the diff. comparatively, saying "it just ain't so, it just ain't so" is saying "a human, cannot experience", "a human won't experience", and beyond human experiece "I can measure the smallest degree that you can't in order to determine it ain't there". Maybe they do change the set-up of TVs, but do they also put one amp through a power cleaner and the comparison amp straight into the wall? Unless you've been there for 20 min to 2 hours, are they both equally warmed up? I've never been to China, but they say it's there... oh Hi Marco, how was your trip? Will you like it? ?????? Cryo can make a difference in the audio experience, don't tell me please, that I've not heard it. What kind of metal does your manufacturer use in their RCA's? :) |
Redkiwi, When I mentioned "cancelling out" I was only refering to this thread not to any broader context. As for cryoing, I believe that it can indeed impart beneficial qualities in some materials for certain purposes. There are many variables in the process however and these can lead to variables in the results. There are skeptical members on this board and for the most part justifiably so. Unfortunately this subject seems to raise some hackles. I know that in some industries parts are routinely cryo'd to increase durablity so there are those who realize this subject is more than voodoo. There are many phenomenon that I'm not equiped to understand (including this one) but I don't dismiss them offhand nor do I deny their existence. BTW: I understand the process can also destroy some materials. |
I don't personally see the opinions as cancelling each other out. The problem comes when you talk to electrical engineers, the not so smart ones, that think their models are more than just an approximation of reality. If they believe their 'characteristic impedence' formulae are perfectly accurate then they will never get cryo or burn in concepts. But if you talk to applied physicists and quantum physicists you can find that there is much science around how electrons channel a signal through a cable, that this is affected by the alignment or otherwise of metal crystals, and that this channeling can be formed over a period of time and depends on the frequencies the cable is subjected to. I am working with scientists on this phenomenon at present. Don't mistake ignorance on the part of some scientists as a lack of scientific evidence. And no, I am not going to produce anything more for you here until we are ready to publish - that's how I am getting the free input of these guys, they are excited to be able to apply their knowledge to a real world problem, but want to publish under their own names. I suggest you go to your local university and talk with the particle theory guys, and preferably the ones that are seeking practical applications of this science. I discovered this area of science when dining with a friend and describing some of the conductor treatment issues I was struggling with, and she burst out that what I was talking about was precisely what she did her Masters thesis in. Its real guys, its just that few are aware of it. |
Chadnliz, regarding: I simply found it interesting that a Government organization such as NASA is in the business of letting the private sector use its equipment for personal business, and if he chose to use NASA as an endorsement which he did, as a tax payer I should have the right to find that interesting, no chuckles here just curiousity. Before you make such statements, please view NASA Houston web site. They are just south of me and they do not have the "closed door" policy you suggest. NASA works with many Universities, contractors, and businesses. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/business/index.html |
The problem with that approach on this particular question is that there are those who vehimently deny any possible effect from cryo'ing and those that say it can make a sonic difference. The opinions on such a volatile issue seem to cancel each other out. Where does that leave the questioner? Pretty much where he started. Thus my suggestion to experiment and form an independent judgement. |
It will be difficult if not impossible to objectively measure the sonic effectiveness of cryoimmersion treatments due to a lack of an agreed upon end point. The target shooters mentioned above could measure their guns' accuracy with and without cryo treatment. Everyone can agree (or at least SHOULD be able to agree...) on whether a paper target has been hit accurately as long as clear standards for interpreting the hole patterns are used. Not so with audio. Audiophile listening is quite subjective and involves more variables which are less well defined. Rja's solution is probably the most reasonable and easiest compromise. |
There is a very simple test to replace all the speculation and angst about the subject. Try an identical outlet, cryo'd and non-cryo'd. Can you hear a difference? If there is a difference is it an improvement? Personal experience has shown me that cryo can make a difference in some cases but no one else can answer the question for you. |
I am not a smart man,so just call me Forrest Forrest Gump if you wish,however,and this may have been discussed already and I apologize if it has,even if said properties of 'cryoed' materials was really the best thing possible for audio 'sound',how, in the name of reason,could the outlet,the last link in the chain of electron flow to your 'gear' bring/provide what has not been delivered to that point by the preceding conductors,none of which have been 'cryoed'.If there is a legitimate answer to this,and for all 'ole Forrest' knows there is,please someone get me the name/number of the outlet 'cryo' magnate! Most sincerely,Forrest. |
Hdm, Most of this article addresses the behavior of STEEL. It may apply to my silver cables but then again, it may not. Remember that many metals work harden and thus increasing their martinsite percentage makes them harder but more brittle. Is making a metal tougher and harder a good thing in audio applications? Or do we want it to be ductile and soft? Yes, cyro increases the surface hardness and wearability but so what. I'm not making a welder. Are these good attributes for audio. Just because it transfers electricity more efficiently says nothing about what it does to that signal or even if enhanced electron transfer "sounds" better. What if cryoed copper wire transfers energy twice as efficiently but results in an order of magnitude more skin effect? You are making judgements that do not follow from reading the scientific literature. This is the point I've been trying to make. Let me give you an example. Klipch horn speakers are very efficient. My Spendor BC-1s are not. Efficiency is not the goal. Sounding like music is. Have someone stand across the room and talk to you. While he is talking have him raise his hands around his mouth like a megaphone. The result is instantly noticeable. This is why Klipsh horns sound so nasal. They do not sound like music. Spendor's do. So cryo can deliver more power. Is this a good thing? If you've been around audio very long you will remember when more power definately meant worse sound. It's not so bad today but remember, that's why guys are enamoured with the little 8 watt amps. They sure don't have any power delivery but they sure sound sweet. We all know that just because something measures better (say power transfer) doesn't mean it sounds better. That's why all those Julian Hirsch articles we read for so many years were absolutely worthless. He didn't like music - he liked oscilloscopes. Maybe you are right - I'm not saying you're not. All I'm saying is that better sound does not logically follow from this article or any other that I've read on cryogenic processing. Conversely, we cannot say cryo does not work from this article either. Hdm, I repeat; this is not to beat up on you. We need these types of articles and we need the free exchange of ideas on this forum but we must not jump to unsupported conclusions. Ross |
Rustler - Getting back to the original discussion: after all is said and done, and I'm not disagreeing with you regarding how stores might set up/display their TVs, but at the end of the day, no matter where or how one evaluates TVs for purchase, it is usually performed by looking at the picture quality and selecting the TV with the best looking picture....presumably within one's budget :-). Now you can argue that the test is not fair or that people have different tastes in picture quality, etc.; it still it comes down to Perception, not Specs. |
The most expensive TVs don't necessarily give the store the best profit margin. Also different chains have different deals with different TV makers. I used to be involved in the business, and it's a real crap shoot simply to "believe your eyes" in the store. Subtle adjustments to a television's color, contrast, sharpness, etc. can make a big difference in the quality of the picture available in the store at any given time. |
I'm not any type of scientist either, Double4w, but I do have 1) a set of ears and 2) I can read information and make a relatively simple interpretation of it. With respect to #2 above, take for example the following info, quoted directly from the article referenced: "Fine eta(h ) carbide particles (precipitates) are formed during the long cryogenic soak (chromium carbides, tungsten carbide, etc., depending upon the alloying elements in the steel). These are in addition to the larger carbide particles present before cryogenic treatment. These fine particles or "fillers", along with the larger particles, form a denser, more coherent and much tougher matrix in the material." "Retained austenite is a softer grain structure always present after heat treatment. By applying cryogenic treatment, retained austenite is transformed into the harder, more durable grain structure - martensite. The range of retained austenite in a material after heat treating may be as high as 50 % or as low as 3 %. The amount depends on the heat treating operator and the accuracy of the heat treating equipment. Cryogenic treatment simply continues the conversion initiated by heat treatment, whereby almost 100 % of the retained austenite is converted to martensite. As greater amounts of retained austenite are transformed, and wear resistant martensite is increased, the material obtains a more uniform hardness." "Copper electrodes exhibit longer life, show less wear and deformation and they can be used with less power input. Cryogenic Treatment reduces tip burn-off and carry reduced amperage on heliarc tungsten electrodes." Let me translate it simply for you. Cryoed materials allow better transfer of 1) power to your component and 2) signal from the component to the speaker because of the above. Let's break it down even further. You know the audio guys who place a very high emphasis on "the source" as being critical, the guys who tell you "garbage in, garbage out". They make a valid point. However, let's take that thought one step further: the power and the signal transfer are the ultimate source, the equipment is only facilitating that (that is a slight exaggeration, but without power and signal transfer, the equipment does nothing). Cryo, by its very nature, enhances both power delivery and signal transfer. It is the ultimate el-cheapo form of power conditioning and cable upgrade all rolled into one. That's about as simple as I can make it for you. |
Usblues,I am not any type of scientist,far from it.However, I did read the info on the link Hdm provided to farmingdale.edu,etc.I read nothing in it which in any way speaks to any benefit (or lack thereof) in 'cryoed' materials employed in audio applications.Perhaps I missed or misunderstood something. |
Well,this thread is degenerating nicely.I personally have not had a thing cryoed,though I have done my homework and understand the concept.Looks like a 50/50 proposition in terms of acceptance by the Goner's.Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts and hopefully we will get closer to the bottom of this marvelous process one day with regards to audio properties,cheers,Bob |
Rustler - If what you say is true, I'd think they would want the expensive TVs to sell better; that would probably explain why the expensive ones often look best. Q: If what you say is true, that all stores engage in this sort of trickery, what advantage is there to going to more than one store? How could you ever be sure you're not being tricked? |