argyro....having heard the wavac and owning the chalice 'grail' i can tell you they are much better then the wavac...very few people have heard the 'grails'... they are ..in the opinion of those that have heard them..possibly the best SET in the world.the bass with the 'grails' is superb...and the 50 watts easily drives them..and is super fast...it is a combination made in heaven...they aren't the average '50 watts'..that's one reason they are so expensive.. |
Calloway, I certainly have not heard a large range of amps on my Contriva Diacera SEs, but I was both very unimpressed and very impressed with the BAlabi BP-1 Power amps on Tidal Sunrays. The first be in CES 2010 and the second in CES 2011. Perhaps this was the difference between the Mk I and Mk II. I bought them having heard them on the Ypsilon prototype DHT mono SET tube amps using the Russian GM70 tubes with their present PST 100 preamp. This was overwhelmingly good in my opinion and lead directly to my buying the speakers. I don't remember what the power of these tube amps but with this tube it should be over 30 watts. I have also used the BMC Amp M1s that do 200 watts into 8 ohms. I wanted to get the Ypsilon Aelius hybrid, mono blocks with 220 watts into 8 ohms but could not afford them. I have been very happy with the BMC and they are still getting better. Finally, I heard the Tidal electronics on the Tidal Piano Cera speakers (I think). They sound was okay. I think all of these experiences make believe I will live with the BMC as still getting better. |
To judge an amplifier bass on # of watts seems shortsighted. Given the design,part selection and execution of the Chalice Grail I suspect it will out perform "many" higher power Solid state amplifiers regardless of stated power rating/watts. This ultra built SET design would have un matched natural beauty,realism and sublime tone/timbre and just bring music to life. |
In the past week I have seen performances by the Boston Symphony Orchestra of Dvorak's Cello Concerto and Brahm's Piano Concerto #2. I have recordings of both and now when I listen to each of them the Piano Diacera's virtually put me back in Boston Symphony Hall. It is uncanny the realism I hear when playing these recordings and I am ecstatic. |
Calloway, this hobby is crazy specially with list prices such as this, I don't under your remark made saying; "obviously not for everyone but for those who can afford them they are great.." Kindly enlighten me ... Who cares if one can afford them or not, lets face it that's allot of money for that product. |
Calloway i dont disagree that the Grail "can easily drive them" as you say, i Just say that this speaker needs power and a SET amp will never do them justice in terms of drive! They can be magic, but they are not driven in their full potential! I think we do not disagree on this! Happy Listening, Mike |
argyro.....whether you believe in gravity or not....guess what...it still exists.it's pretty stupid on your part to make an assumption about a product you have never heard.to say that 'an SET amp will never do them justice in terms of drive'...is very narrow minded. i will assure you that these amps can 'drive' these speakers as good or better then most every amp known....at any cost.why don't you read the review on the chalice audio site by keith taruski who has T1 sunrays and matter-of-factly states that 'there is no better amp anywhere'...not my words...his..he also compared them to many of the best SS amps in the world...as he had the means to do so...including tidal amps...and still bought the 'grails'...i'm not trying to start an audio fight..but..it's naive of you to make such a statement about an audio product without ever having heard it....i can assure you..they are as good as keith says they are...and very easily drive my contriva diacera-se speakers to real world sound pressure levels with the nuances to expose the true sound hidden in any disc..record or computer file.i have heard tidal speakers driven by many amps and not any of the setups begin to come close to the tidal speakers being driven by the 'grail' monoblocks. |
Well, I won`t call anyone stupid(just un-informed perhaps), I think when people see SET the immediate assumption is , it may be sweet and coloful but it must surely lack drive and control. Big SS amplifiers are`nt "always" better(given the particular speaker load) The Chalice is really a quite special case( massive power supply surplus and top transformers), it`s truly a massive iron fist in a velvet glove. I believe many would be shocked if they were to compare it directly with their current SS amps, really surprised. |
So Calloway you tell me that the Chaliche amps can DRIVE the Contriva better than the Tidal monoblocks. by the way i didnt characterize you my friend we just share opinions here, you have yours I have mine! ive been listening to the Contriva the last 4 years, with a dozen of amps and I am pretty sure I know what this speaker needs. Actually you never understand when a speaker is underdriven until you hear it properly driven! Just my 2 cents! |
I can fully appreciate the enthusiasm but when I start reading an indivual writing; "'drive' these speakers as good or better then most every amp known....at any cost." How do you know this? I doubt you have heard every amp with your speakers so your credibility really lacks writing such. "why don't you read the review" Are you serious? that's one person opinion and this reviewer did not have every amp combo within to hear. Has anyone even heard this specific set-up or any others the reviewer speaks of, maybe his set-ups suck. Individuals who seem to back up their purchase due to a review has always left me scratching my head and laughing. It's greeat that you are enjoying your amps but give me a break. Looking at these amps I'm still left scratching my head due to the cost being $80K, for what. My Vac's are the same cost and they even left me scratching my head saying this absolutely rediculous but to me they look more substantial. With so much money invested in gear I was shocked when I viewed your set-up, you may want to make some adjustments because it's the weakest link right now. In general having a designated room so you can truely hear the potential would be best. Looking at your picks that large wall unit in the middle of your speakers in general with the glass and tv alcove is just really bad, the large table in front of your speakers with a glass top is another no no and shocked that you would not know this. I have my set-up currently in a living rm space which isn't ideal either and have always known it being the weak link but is night and day from yours but still know a designated room would be the way to go which I'm currently designing. Some suggestions; if this is your only room I would recomend you get rid of the wall unit, if this is your only tv viewing area install a plasma on the wall, install a low component stand system "max 3 shelves high" HRS for example makes a nice one. Get rid of the big table out front. P.S. Let up on the implying "BEST" because there is no best just different. Enjoy! |
Argyro, I think 50 watts from a tube amp can be very powerful, but I certainly agree with your statement, "Actually you never understand when a speaker is underdriven until you hear it properly driven!" I certainly have not had the opportunity to hear all the amps you have, however. All that I can really say is that my Contrivas Dicera SEs have responded well to the power of the BMC M1's and clearly revealed slight tweaks in my system, including putting the StillPoints Ultra SSs under them. |
argyro...'so calloway you tell me that.......'....that is exactly what keith decided in his comparison...that is why he bought the 'grail' instead of the tidal amps..i will assure you that my speakers are 'properly' driven...by amps that are as good as any out there ..SS or tube...by the way..i am sorry for using the word 'stupid' in my last post..' my bad' |
dev...your points are well taken...i have not..as you so correctly point out, heard every amp. i have been a little over enthusiastic during these last few posts..i apologize if i have pissed anyone off..my room...unfortunately, 'is what it is'. i did do alot of homework and legwork prior to making the decision to purchase the 'grails'..i am very OCD. prior to the grails i had a Goldmund 29M. the 'grails' are better in every way.i can probably chalk-up my rants to 'separation anxiety' as i have not had the amps for 4 weeks as they are away getting some minor upgrades accomplished...i have a new i/c and a new powerconditioner to try out when they get back...again..sorry for anything i may have said that ruffled any feathers |
I think keith`s review is relsvant, who would know the needs of Tidal speakers better than the builder. Presumably his ampshould be an ideal stablemate. The VAC 450 Statement monoblock vs the Chalice Grail driving Tidals would be very interesting to say the least. The Grails weigh 150 pounds per side for a reason,lots of ultra -heavy duty top quality chokes and transformers. I`d go out of my way for the chance to hear these two fine amps driving the same speakers. |
Yes that would be fun indeed, would be interesting to try yours with my MBL 101E's but unfortuantely I don't see it happening due to logistics, you are located in the US and I'm in CANADA. It's still only Keith's opinion, has anyone actually heard his set-up. What size of room was it, what was the seating arrangment and so on. The areas of that I would think may have possible limitations would be; bottom end, control of such over all, micro and macro dynamics, trancients, spl peaks, run out of gas when specific music calls for it, issues sounding strained while playing in a mid to large rooms. Looking at Calloway's pics and seating I would refer to that being on the smaller size. |
dev...yea..canada would be a stretch....all of your concerns regarding the amps ability to handle the qualities you mentioned are valid for any amp /amps one was considering buying.i can't speak about keith's room / setup ...although danial barnum , who used to own a very highend audio salon in illinois, thought it was superb. he is the dealer who sold keith the amps as well as his tidal speakers.i can speak about my room and the amp qualities mentioned above and i can say..as can everyone who has heard my setup / room, including doug white who owns 'the voice that is ' outside of philadelphia, that that the 'grails' easily shine with regards to all the above concerns..what you can't see in the pics of my room ..which is 25' x 18' x 25' high..is that the ceiling is an exposed redwood beamed, vaulted area where the beams are situated every 5' and extend into the room 2' at each attachment..this does create a pseudo-diffuser effect. i also have the back wall treated...bass traps in the corners and panels at the corners of each wall's connection..all this done professionally.the entertainment center notwithstanding, the room is pretty good...could it be better..sure...but all of us, who do not have dedicated rooms , have issues..hopefully my amps will be back by this weekend as i am going into withdrawal...if you haven't read adam goldfine's, of Positive Feedback, complete review of the amps , on the Chalice website, it does go into most of the qualities the early 'grail' amps had. click on the 'full review' link at the bottom of his partial review. keep in mind that what he says was noted about what was, at that time, the prototype version. they have been significantly improved since.. |
I love my Piano Ceras and to my amazement they sounded quite wonderful when driven by the class D Spectron Musician III Mk II power amp and Wyred-For-Sound's STP-SE linestage. Was surprised at the difference over my Einstein LITD hybrid power amp. More dynamic, transparent and denser if I can use that adjective. |
Well boys and girls it looks like Tidal is coming out with a new speaker. After this link go to News & Press link. http://www.tidal-audio.com/english/startenglish.htm |
Ojdeteos, not that I could afford the Sunrays, but I have had the Contriva Diacera SEs for about a year and a half and have heard the Sunrays sound both great and poor with the BAlabo amps in two CES shows. I would imagine that in a large room the Sunrays would excel. I think they sound very much the same. There are several pairs of Sunrays for sale at great prices. I haven't seen Contriva Diacera SEs for a long time. |
My room is 16' x 26' and 10' high, i don't if it is big or not Actually one of the sunrays that's on sell is in my country I haven't heard any of tidal speaker because they aren't that popular here My friend told me that tidal is a speaker you must hear, and that i have read here makes me interested more than before, so any experience that you can tell me will be helpful. |
The Sunray has the same Efficiency as the Contriva. It differs, according to the guys from Tidal at; Deep Bass and Bass Precision, Mid-Range, High-Range, Neutrality, Resolution, Precision, Sovereignty and Max. SPL. And No I didnt hear to Sunray (I own the Contriva All Ceramic) but Jörn said to me that everything is a step further with the Sunray. Hope this helps, Robert |
argyro, please look at my other posts. to me, sunrays=hype. i was a audiophile for many years. iheard/had good speakers, and not so good.heard the sunrays in the last 3 munich shows. i go every year. also heard contriva diacera. better speaker then sunrays. more balanced. the sunrays is not so well designed but nice finish.the sound is not natural, and the bass is slow and fat.many designers like the ceramic drivers. cheap, and easy to put in the cabinet.also measures are good. but sounds bad. it is hard to say"refernce" when people sell them, and they don't sell.now even kharma move away from ceramic.now kharma makes good/great speakers! i also like new big sonus fabor,gamuts7,magico q5, and focal em line. |
Focalfan, I think many of the Sunrays available are the result of changes in the US importer and Tidal dealers. I have heard these speakers and all that deters me is their price and size. Your characterization of their sound was true in my hearing of them in the '10 CES, but absolutely not in the '11 CES. They reveal the electronics driving them and cabling. This is also true of the Contriva Diacera SEs, which I own. I hear none of the "characteristics of ceramic drivers" in my home or at the last CES with the Sunrays. I have never been impressed with any of the Magico speakers and just cannot stand the Q5s at all. The Gamuts do impress me, but not enough to buy them. However, I always believe that people's tastes, associated electronics, rooms, etc. make one person's opinions, even reviewers, irrelevant or at least demand the warning that this is only your or my experience. |
