Thumbs up for ultrasonic record cleaning
..just reading all these posts, and reflecting on my experience.... I have a Nitty Gritty I got many years ago. I've used the cleaning machine to clean records maybe 10 records in about 10 years. In my experience, the little benefit is simply not worth the effort (I'm lazy I guess). I listen to vinyl every day ....I am a violinist and have lived well though the years doing it. Every one should embrace their passions. |
@stringreen I agree that in general the vacuum method is better than nothing, but the US method seems far superior. It may or may not be "worth it" to you, but there is a difference. But you are focused on the right things... Enjoying the music and embracing passions. @terry thank you for defining what you meant by "heroic rinsing". That's amazing. |
stringreen, did you buy all or most of your records new? I believe that can make a big difference, particularly if one is careful about how they treat/handle their records, which I suspect you may be. But I've become a believer in US even without yet owning one, simply based upon the overwhelming positive comments I've read on line. My first record cleaner was a Nitty Gritty but it had the manual record rotation. I soon grew tired of that and bought a VPI 16.5. That changed my whole attitude about record cleaning. Now I plan to get an US device but will keep my 16.5 for rinsing and drying. |
Just wanted to chime in on this thread with a shout out for the after sales service from Klaudio on their cleaners. I’ve had an LP200 since last August and love it but in the past month the motor driving the LP started to whine and in many cases would not power the LP round. I contacted my dealer and he suggested I ship it back to KL. Concerned I didn’t want to do this without an RMA I filled in a form in the KL website and next day (although it was a holiday) I got an RMA and also an email for a free shipping label. Shipped it off and less than a week later got it back with new motor and rollers. All in all this is just what you expect in after sales service but is too rarely what you receive. So if you do spring for the Klaudio models you can be confident they stand behind them well |
My experience with ultrasonic cleaning is nowhere near as positive as the those reported by others. I had a choice between an Audio Desk Pro and a Loricraft PRC 6. I chose the Audio Desk Pro. The unit was purchased new from a dealer. The first album I cleaned was an original copy of Paul Simon's Graceland lp that I could never quite get clean. I gave it one extra beep and awaited sonic bliss. I put the record on the turntable and gave it a good listen and found that nothing had occurred. I re-cleaned it with a Spin Clean, 60 turns clockwise in total, 60 turns counter-clockwise in total. I rinsed the Spin Clean fluid off with distilled water and cleaned this record again on my conventional RCM using Disc Doctor record cleaner and various brushes. A good rinse followed. The record now sounded good. This is how all the records I cleaned behaved. Use the Audio Desk. Then hit the Spin Clean and my old Hanss Acoustic RCM. It seemed that the Audio Desk loosened the grub on the records but did not remove it. After 80 record cleaning cycles with the same result, I drove the 2.5-3 hours ( one way) to the dealer with the machine ( and a 4 liter jug of distilled water and a new bottle of Audio Desk cleaning solution) and asked the dealer what gives. The filter and cleaning brushes were cleaned and dried the day before my trip. The dealer mixed the cleaning solution into the distilled water and filled the machine. He then cleaned a couple of records. The cleaning process was carefully observed and deemed okay. The records were played and the dealer announced that this is all I could expect. The machine was working as well as any he had seen. I had cleaned the filter and brushes several times before I went back to the dealer. I changed the distilled water and cleaning solution several times as well in case the machine was dirty from the factory. I went home and using a new batch of distilled water and Audio Desk cleaning agent I found that nothing has changed. So, by this time I have gone through 5-6 changes of water\cleaning fluid solutions. My impression so far is all I get is more work going back to my old record cleaning machines to remove the grunge the Audio Desk loosened but did not remove. After just over 100 records were cleaned on the Audio Desk, I drained the fluid and cleaned the rotating brushes and the filter. The filter showed very little debris (2 shakes with a pepper shaker). Much, much less than I have seen on other posts on the internet. My records are cleaned and rinsed before being cleaned with the Audio Desk, but after all the dazzling superlatives that I have seen used to describe the Audio Desk I am truly at a loss. I have considered sending it back to Germany with a letter describing my experiences, but I doubt that much would come of it. I think if I received an all okay in German I would ask Mr. Glass to just keep his machine as I would not feel I had lost anything but thousands of dollars and my pride for being fooled so easily. I should have purchased the Loricraft PRC 6 instead. It is exactly the same money. I know what a Loricraft or a Monks can do, and it is a lot more than the Audio Desk can. Caveat Emptor. |
@regafan, My 3 years plus with my AD machine ( I now look at it as an informative, expensive lesson), was that after pre-steamimg, I did get better results. after going to the DIY machine set-up, it’s clearly better than the AD. For convenience, which the AD has in spades, for me, the high initial cost and the inability to be able to access the internals, the inability to be able to clean out the cavity properly, the high ongoing cost of ownership and so on makes it hard to recommend. |
Well, I have no way to know who is right and who is wrong, but I am certain that I made the right move for me. I was on the verge of buying the AD and was ready to hit the button for PayPal to well-known dealer in PA when I happened to read that the transducers in any US machine eventually crap out and immediately concluded it was dumb to pay that much money for a machine that performs such an isolated function. I went the cheap route instead-a $200 Chinese-made 6L US tank and the Vinyl Stack Pro and the various fluids recommended by some chemist on some audio Board thread that was repeated on Arthur Salvatore's site. This dealer in PA was offering $500 off with a trade-in of a VPI RCM so I had my 16.5 in my car to ship off to said dealer. I instead bought two new pick-up tubes on the realization that I very much need my 16.5 to dry off my records after I run them through my cheap alternative set-up. I haven't yet started with my cheap-route set-up thanks to being on crutches at the moment, but when I do, I will report back. |
@fsonicsmith, Thanks for the post. Look forward to your findings! (By the way, "I don’t know who to believe",..I can appreciate that. This is why I spend the effort in several ways to find out for myself...then I report here.) I stand behind what I here. My recommendation for anyone is to try several options for yourself. Although I really don’t pay much attention to the audio press much any more, I did (kind of ) follow Art Dudley’s move towards the AD cleaner. At first he said he could not afford it, then low and behold he bought one. He is the one writer I have respect for. I only hope he’ll possibly do a DIY US cleaner in the manner in which he did his own plinth for the Thorens. ? |
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Although I really don’t pay much attention to the audio press much any more, I did (kind of ) follow Art Dudley’s move towards the AD cleaner. At first he said he could not afford it, then low and behold he bought one. He is the one writer I have respect for. I only hope he’ll possibly do a DIY US cleaner in the manner in which he did his own plinth for the Thorens. ?I'm in the same boat-Art Dudley is the one S'Phile reviewer I feel I can rely upon. Although I listen to vinyl 95% of the time, based on his review of the Abbingdon Music Research DP777 DAC, I bought a lightly used one sound-unheard and have been very happy with it ever since. With each knew touted hi-res format, I chuckle to myself that well-executed 16bit/44.1 is all I need. More so than any other reviewer in the S'Phile fold, Art seems to totally free himself from "hi-fi" sound and instead values truth of tone and timbre. He understands that all of audio involves compromise and priorities. When a reviewer automatically dismisses analogue as a faulty medium or insists upon truthful reproduction of the lowest octave of pipe-organ or double-bass, I know to steer clear. I apologize for digressing, but JA and his buddy Kal Rubinson still insist that Benchmark DAC's are among the best and yet consumer after consumer on the various audio Boards express their regret for having bought one. |
fsonicsmith, "When a reviewer automatically dismisses analogue as a faulty medium or insists upon truthful reproduction of the lowest octave of pipe-organ or double-bass, I know to steer clear." I share your skepticism with commercial reviewers, while appreciating Dudley. But I'm confused by your statement quoted above. The pipe-organ has the potential for a 16 Hz note which a cartridge may not track. But the double-bass (4-string string bass) low reach is 42 Hz. Any decent cartridge should reproduce that. And yes, I prefer analog for sonic enjoyment. |
@slaw RE rinsing, I should add that it is important to start with good water. It's not too hard to get rid of the suspended solids, but the dissolved minerals are hell. RO is about the only way to reduce them, and even then you have to worry about the spec. One key spec is conductivity (high is bad). If you don't have good tap water, I would suggest successive baths in distilled. |
I've been interested in ultrasonic cleaning for some time. Having a background in ultrasonics in the engineering laboratory setting, I am even more curious now that so many high-end hi-fi users are seemingly impressed by its application to vinyl cleaning. I'm sure most all of you are aware of the past claims that ultrasonic cleaning adversely affects high frequency information in the vinyl (somehow). These claims I've read were interesting, but the claimants indicated neither the level of sophistication of their cleaning process nor their audio systems. I'm sold on experimenting with the cleaning process, but my knowledge of ultrasonics gives me pause as I consider these claims regarding high frequency affects on the vinyl. Since I haven't seen it mentioned here, can anyone also address this concern so as to allay my trepidations? Thanks! |
@terry9, Thanks! @nolojunko, Hi. I wouldn't know how to alleviate your concerns on any other level than what I've experienced by listening and reporting that here. Many audiophiles including professional reviewers who've tried it are sold. It's hard to get a more across the board, wide spectrum of people to agree on things but they have in this case. |
@whatthe I too was considering the KL Audio & AD cleaners, and ended up with Clearaudio DM Pro Sonic. It's changed record cleaning (with a VPI 16.5) from a torture to a pleasure, which has become the most important parameter for me. And of course, it cleans EXTREMELY well, to great effect -- especially the heavy-duty cycle! |
For years I used a VPI 17 then Audio Desk followed by Klaudio were introduced and I began reading all the rave reviews. However, like nolojunko, I had concerns about exposing my records to ultrasonic cleaning. Let me add that my concerns were purely subjective without the benefit of any empirical evidence. As, a result I went with the Clear Audio Double Matrix Professional Sonic and couldn't be happier. It does a wonderful job and it's built like a tank. |
Hello Nolo. Welcome! I have done such an experiment - it was my first act of US ownership. Methodology: 1. Wash both sides with VPI 16.5. 2. US clean both sides for 5 minutes. 3. Turn off the motor, so that one sector of the record remained in the US bath. 4. Cooked the record in US for an hour. 5. Removed the record from the bath, and rinse. 6. Play on a high end system, expecting a change every second or so. 7. Observed no change or difference of any kind. 8. Concluded that US does not damage vinyl. Of course, after cooking in the hot bath for an hour, the record was warped - but that is a function of heat unevenly applied, not US energy. My US cleaning process: 1. Rotate at 12 RPH. 2. Clean at 80 KHz with Elmasonic machine (German, lab grade). 3. Chemistry is 2.5% VersaClean from Fisher Scientific. 4. Temperature is 45C. 5. Rinse heroically. My system is based on 6 Quad 2905 ESL's, a DIY air bearing TT and DIY electronics. |
@terry9, I've ordered Versa-Clean and Photoflo. My plan is to use this with distilled water for the time being as my next phase of my progression of US cleaning. I have two existing RO filtering systems. One I cut off years ago when a leak developed and an identical new unit never installed. I think I'll try to install/fix both and use one with a mineral cartridge for my drinking water and the other just for my US cleaning needs. Thoughts/suggestions? |
@terry9 , I’ve been experimenting again... I can certainly understand now, why you describe your rinsing effort as heroic! Let me explain...... I’m still using my AD/distilled water. It’s at close to a complete water change. I received my Versa-Clean. I decided to just put in a small amount to my existing water. I did not measure it but I guess 2oz? When I pulled the lp out to rinse/vacuum on my VPI....major suds coming through the vacuum tube. So, I’m not even at the 20:1 ratio and still having a major amount of rinsing to do. Mine is a 10 L tank but of coarse it isn't filled to capacity. It takes slightly under 2 gal to fill it to operating capacity. |
@terry9 , After re-reading my last post, I realize it was unnecessary. I had asked you earlier if you could ascribe the positive benefit of your cleaning methods (filtering/rinsing/fluids) over what I was doing. You said around 50%. I was skeptical. I am no longer. Just using the Versa-Clean in my current water and better rinsing was a revelation. I've cleaned several lps from new to very rough record show finds. The improvement is easy to hear across the board. About one year ago, I went through my Janis Joplin lps to compare different pressings. I have the MFSL 45rpm "Cheap Thrills". At that time I was very disappointed in it. So much so, I put it in my to sell pile. I re-cleaned it this morning and WOW!, it is a completely different sounding record. Actually, it is of reference quality. I'm not kidding. Thank you for your posts! |
@slaw Thanks for posting your experiences. Glad it's working for you! I am sure that it will help others to achieve better results. As for your RO question, I think it is a good one. I used distilled because it has very low concentrations of dissolved minerals, which could conceivably deposit on the record while drying. Dissolved minerals can be measured by conductivity, which is very low for distilled. Specs for RO are harder to come by, and depend on system maintenance, etc. |
@terry9, How does distilled water compare to de-ionized water in this realm? I’ve read on various threads about a measuring device for mold an so on...I ask because if there's an inexpensive device that might be able to help us determine with more accuracy, a water change in out US cleaners?... Do you have any thoughts on this? Thank you. |
@slaw It depends. First on the quality of distilled water (which is standard), and the sample of RO water (which is not). If I were doing that measurement, I would try an instrument called a 'megger', which typically reads resistance with the help of a high voltage supply. Since I don't need one, I don't have one, and just bite the bullet and buy pharmacy distilled at $1.50 a gallon. Lazy? Yeah - but that's just me. |
You may find this explanation of different purification processes helpful: [url]http://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/water-purification/learning-centers/tutorial/purification-techniqu...[/url] The source is a manufacturer of equipment used in labs and hospitals. In my interview with the LOC, the preservation specialist suggested the D/I was sufficient for records, the main objective being to remove mineral content. I've been told you can buy reagent grade II at places like Cosco. The reagent grade 1 cannot be shipped to a residence. It's also more costly. I now only use it to mix fluids and for rinse steps on the Monks. I used standard supermarket distilled in the US machine. |
fsonicsmith wrote: I apologize for digressing, but JA and his buddy Kal Rubinson still insist that Benchmark DAC's are among the best and yet consumer after consumer on the various audio Boards express their regret for having bought one. AFAIK, I have never reviewed or commented on the Benchmark DAC in Stereophile. |
@terry9, I just changed to brand new distilled water. The closest I can measure, I’m using 256 oz. in my tank when it’s filled properly. I put in 2 oz. Versa-Clean, & just slightly over 1 tsp. of Photo-Flo. The first lp I’m cleaning is a brand new Procol Harum "A Salty Dog" MFSL. My settings are..40 minutes / 45 degeees C / RPM = 1 revolution every 7 minutes.. This is a much lower ratio than you suggest...closer to 100:1. I do steam first with the Audio Intelligent down with dirty concentrate. At this ratio, great rinsing is still needed. I forget,, do you use Photo-Flo in your mixture? For right now, my heroic rinsing is another steam of the lp after a US cleaning. That’s pretty "heroic"! |
AFAIK, I have never reviewed or commented on the Benchmark DAC in Stereophile.I apologize Kal. In fact, I pledge not to diss on your rather unique (for Stereophile) perspective or to use your name in derogatory fashion in the future. Your viewpoints on audio could nor possibly differ more than my own and as a result, I make careless mistakes like this one. I need to move on an not single you out. That said, on a wine board that I regularly frequent, someone enthusiastically recommended the Oppo UDP205 as a CD spinner based on your blurb under "Recommended Components". I find this unfortunate. I believe that any recommendation has to take into account longevity and build quality, something that seems to be a non-issue in your assessments. But there I go again. I will move on from making you a boogieman. |
