dsper
Thank You for the update. I like CJ gear as well. What cabling is in your system? Happy Listening!
Thank You for the update. I like CJ gear as well. What cabling is in your system? Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,807 responses Add your response
tomthiel - thanks for the Benchmark link (a few pages ago), that was a very helpful piece of education for me. Has anyone tried the AHB2 with their Thiels? Based on the literature this one has moved to the top of my list, if I can't find a great deal on a used amp in the meantime. jafant, is it on your list of contenders?
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Hi jafant, I have not spent a lot of time with cabling as my moves with amps, preamps, and DACS tend to be going up the food chain and I see big improvements as I audition this type of gear. Having said that, I use less expensive Cullen Cable interconnects on single-ended short runs. These replaced the discount store garden variety and I could tell that the sound became cleaner and more detailed. Interconnects scare me as I have no idea where to start and the prices seem to go absurdly high quickly. My speaker cables are 14 gauge multi strand copper about ten feet long, which I think is short enough to not worry about cables too much. I have read too many articles about blind testing that indicate that listeners cannot tell a difference.I was also influenced by by Roger Russell who was the Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#differences. Thanks for listening Dsper |
Good Morning Dspr As I see it from reading all the posts you are the 3rd McCormack amp owner writing on the Thiel owner post , welcome from a DNA-250 owner . Since you are trying to decide which preamp you are going to stay with can I ask what tubes you are using ? Have you done a lot of tube rolling ? I just received my Tavish Designs Asiago phono pre-amp going thru a Goldpoint passive preamp and am in listening heaven . I have been lucky enough to be able to try a few different tubes so far and just like any change you make in your system it is amazing how different each tube can sound . I have found that the Genalex Gold Lion to be my favorite and would use them for all my gain stages if they were available , so I have to mix in my second favorite Tung-Sol gold pin . I have tried some older tubes but the problem with them are either the prices or the matching/balancing . I know this tread is about Thiel speakers BUT with all the input from owners the information about the rest of our systems we can hopefully get the most out of enjoying listening to our Thiel speakers . Rob |
Hi Rob, Tube rolling can be a money pit if we are not careful! The most expensive tubes I have purchased were $120 a pair so I can't comment on the "top end" stuff. I do notice that Brent Jesse often has high quality tubes that he calls "butt ugly" that are less expensive but the same tube as the more exotic stuff. I have tried several kinds of 12AU7 tubes in my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium. My general observation is that old European tubes sound better to me than old US tubes. I have not tried any new production tubes other than the stock tubes that came with the PL. Mullard, Brimar,and Amperex sound better to me than Seiman and Telefunken. I find the German tubes are a bit too analytical for me although they sound clean and have great bass. The English and Dutch tubes are warmer sounding and just more comfortable. I have one pair of Mazdas I really like because they have that warmness and rich mid range along with the solid bass of the German varieties. The Mazda is about the only one I have contemplated laying out a couple hundred bucks per tube. Having said that, it is fun to change them out as I get bored and try another one. This helps me avoid spending big money on new components! My Conrad Johnson 17LS-2 is a new toy for me so I have just started tube rolling with it. I replaced the stock Electro Harmonix 6922's with some Phillips PCC88's from the 70's. A stunning improvement to my ear because they sound sweeter with better highs, clarity, sparkle, and bass. Rob, can you share how the Goldpoint passive sounds to you and how it compares to other preamps you have heard? As much as I am enjoying my newly acquired CJ, I an wondering what the next step might be as changing the preamp can really adjust your whole listening experience. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
I'm very happy with mid level Synergistic Research Cables, both the Tesla T3 power cables and Tesla Accelerator speaker cables. I have purchased these on the preowned market for reasonable prices. Also, I might need a little electrical physics explanation about the current abilities of my ARC Ref150 tube amp. Specs list power supply energy storage as 1040 joules but max current is not listed. This appears to be less than 10 amps driving my CS3.6s with a minimum impedance of 2.3 ohms (below 2.5 over a wide frequency range). I have used much higher current solid state Krells and Bryston amps with my Thiels, but much prefer tubes at my comfortable listening volume. I can only hear distortion/compression above comfortable listening levels. Also, can someone explain why power specs for tube amps are listed the same for different loads? Power output with my ARC amp (and other tube amps I've checked) is the same for 8 and 4 ohms. This really goes against all the talk here about amps that double down. Thanks, Jon |
I once used a Placette passive preamp with my 3.5’s and found that the bottom end pretty much dropped out. Figuring I’d remove as much as I could between the speakers and the amp I assumed I’d squeeze just a tad more “everything” I got from the speakers... What I got was a very bright, harsh top end and a virtual removal of the bottom end - something the 3.5’s excelled in providing. No knock against the Placette - it would probably have seen better synergy with a more colored amp then my Pass X150.5 was, so I just popped my ARC preamp back in the chain and resumed chasing the audio dragon. PS: I am currently in the agonizing process of rebuilding my two channel setup after having a spectacularly sh*tty run of bad luck this summer past. Fortunately, owning relatively expensive stuff does allow for one to raise cash when such happenstances as mine drop in for a visit. Were it not for this “hobby” of chasing the audio dragon my situation would have been considerably worse. What I sold off covered my attorney fees! At the moment the best equipment I have is a pair of Meadowlark Kestrel loudspeakers - a very worthy substitute/stopgap for Thiel - that I recaptured from my girlfriend. (I’d given them to her a few years back) Those, along with a Marantz 2250b receiver and an Oppo disc player, now comprise my “audiophile” setup. *Sigh* I’m awaiting the arrival of a Bluesound Powernode 2 which will become the temporary heart of my system for the time being. While the Marantz/Meadowlark thing worked well in her house, it simply didn’t in mine. Anyway...this thread continues to set the proverbial bar for the manner in which threads are sustained over time. My journey here and the info received from unsound, jafant, and many others has been immensely enjoyable. Tom Thiel - your expertise and technical proficiency leave me absolutely agog in wonder - I hope you don’t mind the humble opinions from someone who doesn’t know a mosfet from a misfit. But I know what I like... Hoy hoy! Keep it up! |
On the current topic of amps, I’ve been running my 3.5s for the past year on my VPI 299D tube amp, sometimes with EL34s, but mostly with KT150s. The results have been astonishingly good and there’s tons of power to drive them, though I’d judge I’m a pretty modest user of gain. There were only 100 of these VPI amps made, but I understand they have a lot of Primaluna parts in them, inc the same excellent toroidal transformers, so anyone using, say, a Primaluna Dialogue should get similarly impressive results. |
oblgny Good to see you again. As luck would have it, there are plenty of Thiel loudspeakers in heavy rotation on the secondary market. You will know when it is time to obtain your next pair. Hope you are well and enjoying this Fall season in NY. I look forward to your next excellent system. Happy Listening! |
Oblgny so sorry to learn about your run of bad luck. I had to offload my very nice old gear about 10 years ago when I moved continents. Never an easy thing to do but what I can tell you is that it at least gave me a chance to reassess what I had before and very gradually build a much more effective system from the ground up. It took some time, but I’m very happy with where I’m at. I really hope the same for you. Starting afresh at least enables you to apply acquired knowledge and to learn from the equipment purchasing mistakes we’ve all made in the past. The best discovery was the Thiel 3.5s that have gone on to become the fulcrum of my system. |
Death and Rebirth lives at the center of life - at the heart of understanding. Finding grace in that process ranks as a central challenge and measure of our consciousness. I see music as a key unlocking access to that path. I beg your permission to suggest a piano album I worked on, Dana Cunningham's first album Dancing at the Gate. Enjoy the journey. I met young Dana after she had recorded her earliest work in a small room on a 5' Kawai with a single pair of simple mics to ordinary late 90's digital tape - mastered well enough to sell at retreats. I remastered those songs on then (Y2K) audiophile level equipment with my Classe and CS2 2s as monitors. The result transformed the album from being something to hear into an involving musical journey. I think it provides that key more directly than her later Color of Light album produced by Will Ackerman of Windham Hill Records fame, using 18 mics and $multimillion gear. Live music direct to the heart. |
dancast - regarding the PS Audio M770s, the PS spec states that amp to be stable into 2 ohms for musical peaks. That fact would disrecommend its use for main stereo use. The lion's share of dis-satisfaction with Thiel products is the low impedance current draw from an inadequate amp. I recommend evaluating any amp (for Thiel speakers) by its ability to sustain a 2 ohm load. |
Thank You Tom Thiel Dis-satisfaction with any component can be the result of incompatible synergy , your knowledge and insight of the Theil speakers has at least given owners or future owners some information on what to look for in a power amp . dsper I got back into a home audio system about 10 years ago by purchasing my dream system from when I first read about it in the 1980's , the 30 year old pre-amp was noisy even after re-capping , so after I purchased a separate phono pre-amp and I started to think about a passive preamp with the thought that less is more . So I now have a 2 input 24 step volume control passive preamp and couldn't be happier with the sonic result , my all tube phono preamp and my CD player with built in buffer tubes are basically plugged into the power amp with just a couple of resistors on the volume control in-between . You have experimented with a lot with tubes , fun but expensive and getting more so everyday , but as you said it's easier and less expensive than changing out components . I had just replaced the stock 12AU7 with a new Gold Lion the is balanced and cryro treated and am loving it . I tried an older 1960 RCA gray plate , and a few other tubes that I borrowed to listen to , a Telefunken and a Baldwin. I think that I will stick to new tubes with the hope that like vinyl more will be available as time goes on. Happy Friday Rob |
catalysis... Thanks! No doubt my next round of appropriating equipment will have a MUCH shorter list of possible brands - Pass and Thiel topping it depending upon locality, finances, etc. Though it pained me to let my stuff go I did so knowing it wasn’t the finale, simply a temporary setback. It’s almost refreshing actually. A clean slate is a good thing in many ways. I’m 61 now, soon to turn 62, so the years I have ahead of me are far shorter than the years I have behind me. Not a whine, just a fact - and time too constricted to burn through equipment as I have for the last 5 years. In no particular order... Thiel (4), Magnepan (3), Audio Research (2), B. A. T. (2), Placette, Von Schweikert (2), Vandersteen, Modwright, Sony Hap, Oppo, Marantz Turntable, McIntosh (2), Musical Fidelity (2), Project Turntable, Primare, Primare Phono, First Watt, and more cables and connects than you can swing a dead cat at... Sane or insane? |
l recommend evaluating any amp (for Thiel speakers) by its ability to sustain a 2 ohm load.I’ve had great success driving my Thiels with Ayre. I used an AX-7e to drive CS 1.6s and am now using an AX-5 Twenty to drive CS 2.4 SEs. The 7 is rated at “only” 60 W into 8 ohm and the 5 at 125, both doubling into 4 Ohms but neither has a 2 Ohm rating from Ayre. Both play plenty loadly for my tastes and room. I did get the 7 to clip when I pushed my Vandersteen 2s, which are considerably less efficient than the 1.6s. Still, that was at SPLs exceeding my personal comfort zone. I guess I’m suggesting a strict 2 ohm rating for Thiels might exclude some otherwise great amplification that will work just fine. Perhaps this should be model-dependent. Looking at the CS5 measurements, i probably wouldn’t mate an AX-7 with those! |
oblgny Only 62? Ha! You still have 25 to 30 years ahead of you to enjoy your music through a good rig. Just be selective, as retirement funds may not equal what you have been able to spend previously for changing out components. Just remember that the cost vs desired performance for audio equipment isn't a smoothly-increasing line on an x-y plot. It has a sharp elbow at about the 95-97% point, and further minute increases in perceived enjoyment can cost megabucks. Learn to listen to the music for enjoyment, and not for nit-picking the upper midrange sounds between 901 and 902 hz. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. |
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Hello everybody!....glad to read all yours opinions and experiences matching Thiel speakers, sources, pre and amps. I just ordered some Audyn Q4 capacitors to replace all the electrolytic one originally installed on my CS 3.6, in detail, four 100 uF/100v and one 66 uF/100V each speaker. I have read some very good impressions about this brand so my choice for Q4 MKP foil capacitor, they are 400 Vdc and tolerance within +/-5%. I know that they will be much bigger than the originals but I already planned to install them outside of the XO board using some short pure silver wire to do the connections. After twenty years of duty for these caps I expect to listen some improvements and no longer the need to worry about that electrolytic. I'll report here the result once the job is done. Happy week end to all fellows audiophiles. Silvano |
brayeagle.... Ha! Good points. I went to an integrated amp because I came to the conclusion all that coming and going WAS about the gear rather than the music. Not 100%, but on more than just a few occasions I found myself suspecting SOMETHING in the chain wasn’t to my liking. Dumb. While I dug the processes of firing up the separates, the procedures involved, the NASA-like regimented routine, waiting for warm up, running down the check list began to make me feel like Major Tom, if not altogether a major d**k. My last integrated was a Modwright Instruments KWI-200, no slouch by any measure. (With CS 3.6) When I called to see if I could replace the flimsy plastic remote, I was put on the phone with Mr. Modwright himself. What??? Yes, the owner himself got on my call to discuss a preamp possibility - and I related that I had obtained the unit second hand. He didn’t mind. Modwright will top my return list. And Thiel. While this submission may have wandered off the reservation a bit so far as subject matter, my single most reason for being here in the first place begins with Thiel. Kids, these speakers make ANYTHING sound better no matter what gear you own. At first. Then it becomes a pursuit to find better amps, better preamps, cables, sweaters, socks, and underwear. In a word, Thiel rocks. On the used market they are incontestable bargains. As I’ve said before, Thiel is an investment not an expenditure. They’re worth every penny owning, maintaining, and enjoying. There red is no better resource for “ Thielia “ than this thread - it is fast becoming the most contributed-to thread on the site. Thiel reveals! |
beetle - point taken, many amps are not rated to 2 ohms, so we don't know their capability. It would be very instructive if you could learn the 2 ohm behavior of your Ayre amp so that we can learn from your experience. I have heard only praise of Ayre, but have never heard one myself. My theory predicts that it should do well into 2 ohms for it to meet your sonic requirements so well. Please report if you can supply such performance information to us. |
learn the 2 ohm behavior Hi Tom, Stereophile has measured both Ayre models i have owned. Soundstage might have also measured the AX-5 but maybe it was the amp rather than integrated. Charles Hansen was not a fan of power ratings for amps. Here are some of his thoughts. Also, here Edit - looks like my links don’t work. The short of it is he said you can’t predict how an amp will sound from its measurements. |
silvanik - fantastic indeed and we are most interested in your results. Sonic Craft has New Old Stock Mills MRAs. FYI: all the copper in your 3.6s is 4-9s or better. Your solder is silver x tin, so it needs high temperature. The yellow bypasses are best of form styrene x tin foil. A further thought for your consideration: While replacing the Electrolytic 3x100uF mid shunts plus the 1x100uF woofer shunt, you might play some swap. Your Audyns are probably better than the 2x 100uF PolyPropylene mid feeds. You might spend 2 of your Audyns there and move the original PPs to the woofer shunt and one of the mid shunts, placing your Audyns for maximum benefit in the mid feed. A further upgrade target is the 8.2uF PP in the tweeter feed. In addition to the 66uF shunt you are replacing, that 8.2 is the weak link in the tweeter circuit. Similarly the 9.1uF PP in the midrange shunt is a candidate. I mention these caps because their small values make them low-hanging fruit. My 3.6 project is on the back burner, but I have been scheming for awhile. Please share your progress and what you learn. |
My impression of the Thiel CS2.4 My first impression when I unpack them is that they seem a bit bigger than I remember. The craftmanship is impecable. Something like this today would probably cost $20K. And they are heavy!!! My only disappointment visually is that the bass driver is advertised as 8in but I think the drivers are more like large 7in. I have a pair of ScanSpeak 8in driver they they look quite bigger than the CS2.4 "8in." Anyway, I build my own speakers so I usually don't buy commercial speakers, but I have to have these and I am glad I did. These are probably one of the very few that can do a perfect step response. John Atkinson said that may be less than 10 speakers in the world that can do this. Owning the CS2.4 is like owning a piece of history. I think they will be a future classic. I remember the first time I listened to them at an audio shop a long time ago just after the speakers were introduced to the market, and the first thing I said to the owner was that "They don't sound bright at all". Every single review I've read always said something to the effect that they are a bit bright and so on which is odd. In my set up, they sound natural and the treble is very sweet and not harsh or bright at all. But I think they are very transparent, so I suppose if your electronics are bright, it's possible that they will sound bright. I have two setups in my house. One is Arcam CD23, Conrad Johnson 17LS, and Simaudio Moon W3. In this system, they sound very natural and neutral but very good. My other setup is Ayre QB9 DSD, Pass Lab XP10, and Simaudio W7 amp and in this system they actually sound a bit warm (I though I was listening to a pair of Sonus Faber :-)) So I guess I couldn't make them sound bright :-). Anyway, I am not going to repeat all the accolades they received from professional magazines. But instead I am going talk about first order filter which is used in the CS2.4. Actually they are not only first order, they are also time coherent. You can use first order in your design, but it does not automatically mean time coherent. I have built speakers using various filter order such as 4th order (24db roll off), 2nd order (12db roll off), and first order (6db roll off), and without any doubt any my mind, first order has the most natural and musical sound. As you go to higher order, the sound does sound a bit "clearer" but less and less natural. But I think higher order tend to spot light the instruments but I don't think it's natural. The Thiel sounds unmistakenly as a first order. I design my speakers using first order so I know how first order sounds like. Interestingly, something that I didn't expect, the CS2.4 has a very similar soundstage as mine I guess because mine speaker also use first order filter. I would like to describe what an first order sounds like. Everything is very coherent, no instrument or aspect of the soundstage is being favored. The sound is spacious, airy, open, liquid, continuos like real life. The treble is very integrated into the entire sound. In some speakers that use higher order filters, the treble sometimes feels like a separate element, like a shin that overlays the sound. If you think about it, treble is part of every sound such as your speech sibilance, the drum hit, and not just from high hat. With first order filter, the treble is just like that as in real life that it is within the sound, over overlaying the sound. I listen to the CS2.4 I feel very at ease, it's like I just sit back and enjoy the sound. I don't recall feeling like that listening to any other commercial speakers. The treble, the bass, the soundstage, everything is just right. The other thing I like to talk about is time coherent. As, I mentioned above, being first order does not automatically mean time coherent. The CS2.4 goes a step further and also is time coherent. The claim is that time coherent makes the sound more natural and has better soundstage. My speakers are first order but not time coherent, and compare mine vs. the CS2.4, I guess the advantage of time coherent is subtle because it's hard for me to tell. Mine and the CS2.4 use completely different drivers so there are just too many variables. But as I said above, even though the CS2.4 and mine use different drives and designed by different persons, there is something about the sound that is very similar that is very characteristic of first order filter. Anyway, if you are looking for a pair of speakers, I highly recommend CS2.4 unfortunately they won't be easy to find. I feel like if Thiel would make these as is today, a lot of people will buy them. I know Tom Thiel participates in this thread so may be we can convince him. I think Thiel products are somewhat different from the past. First order and time coherent are no longer part of their designs. Besides Vandersteen, I don't know of anyone making first order time coherent speakers. I can tell you from experience that it's not easy so maybe that's why no many people do it. |
Good post andy! I don't feel competent to assess the exact contributions of phase/time coherence to what I hear with the Thiels. And speaker designers (and experts on acoustics from what I can tell) still seem to disagree. I can only note that my Thiels (first CS6, then CS3.7 and 2.7) share a quality of precision in imaging, a solidity and density of imaging, and a very believable natural tone for voices and instruments. Also, the 3.7s/2.7s are the most coherent dynamic speakers I've heard. The 3.7s in particular all the way through the bass region. But both designs distinguish themselves in coherence in the mids and highs. There is simply no sense of a "tweeter" in the sound from the mids. Zero. Sounds that traverse the tricky crossover points of the tweeter/mid driver sound perfectly whole and coherent. What gets interesting to me, as a nut about instrumental/vocal timbre, are how different approaches can still seem to do well. I remember the very well regarded speaker designer, Paul Hales, saying that one reason he chose higher order crossovers instead of chasing time/phase coherence is that he felt the benefits of higher order made it easier to achieve timbral precision. And to my ears Hales speakers, the Transcendence line in particular, excelled in exactly that aspect. I remember going to a CES way back and after having been in most rooms over two days I heard what sounded startlingly like a live band coming from one room. It was the Hales room and I'll be darned if the timbre of the horns, saxes and other instruments coming through those speakers wasn't astonishingly rich, accurate and believable. When I ended up with Hales transcendence speakers, this was their prime virtue (though I found ultimately they suffered a bit from a lack of dynamics/palpability, which the Thiels really give me). My current favourite speaker for accurate-sounding timbral quality are the Joseph speakers. I played a great many recordings on those speakers that I've played for years on my Thiel speakers. I love, love, love the sound of the Thiels, but when I played for instance certain piano recordings on the Josephs, there was a hair-raising shock, the sensation of hearing a piano's timbral quality *exactly* as I'm used to when I play one, reproduced right in front of me. So these encounters with auditioning and owning various speakers that at the very least seem to give the Thiels a run for the money in the timbral-accuracy department, make me hesitate to conclude the only way to get such things "right" is time and phase coherence, as intuitive as the case for time/phase coherence may be. (Please don't throw tomatoes at me my Thiel brethren, I'm still one of you!) |
One of the biggest challenges to making 1st order crossover-appropriate speakers is that the drivers need to have a considerably wider bandwidth than those typically used in higher order designs. Not any old driver will do. These are much more expensive to design, manufacture and test, and Jim worked tirelessly on improving them. Tom can comment here but from interviews I’ve read with Jim, and some of the classic Thiel product literature I still have, much effort went into those Thiel drivers, and some were originally outsourced. The CS6 was the first model that contained drivers all made in house by Thiel. My first pair were CS7s and, stupidly, I sold them for a pair of Dynaudio Contour 2.0, thinking I was going to "downsize;" they too used 1st order crossovers but were not time/phase coherent. After less than a year, I so missed the Thiels that I traded the Dynaudios for a pair of CS6s, and later bought a pair of CS2.4s for a second system. I’m trying to find a home for the CS6s now that my space is smaller and the CS2.4s are my main speakers. Andy: congrats on your new Thiels. Enjoy them and let me know if you have any questions about set up, placement, etc. When the imaging is locked in you will know it. Steve |
andy2 Welcome! Good to see you here- an excellent post all around. Very sweet owning (2) systems. Also good to read that your CS 2.4 speakers arrived safe and sound to your locale. Interesting that you are a speaker builder, those DIY skills are going to come in handy as beetlemania and tomthiel are working in concert on a cross-over project in conjunction with Mr. Rob Gillum due later this Fall. Stay Tuned. Happy Listening! |
tomthiel Thank You for the caps tech talk. Keep it coming Sir! Thinking about Marty Balin today (R.I.P.) and his vocals on the song "Miracles" from Red Octopus album. This is a demo track in any format as he delivers one hell of a crescendo performance, sure to test any speaker's midrange capability. Happy Listening! |
tomthiel - great suggestions about other caps to replace waiting for your full new 3.6 XO project, I'll give a try to this step of upgrade and will report here as soon as I'm able to build my clear and reliable idea about this modification. Concerning the list of amps suitable for the well known Thiel's "bastard" low load I can state that my McCormack DNA-2 is really a nice match, it's capable of 900 W RMS for channel into 2 ohms. Things I like most is the effortless velvet punch and the warm and clear mids/highs it can deliver, I'm very satisfied with it. |
