Thiel Owners

orchardsound

Yes, the website route works. That is how I got in touch with him.

Thanks, Tom,

So, the website route works then?

orchardsound - don’t take it personally - he can be hard to get.

What's the best way to contact Rob Gillum? I have a pair of Thiel CS 2.2 in need of a little TLC. I bought them new ~'93 and I've always liked them. I still have the original boxes! I sent a message through the website a couple of days ago but haven't heard a response. If he's still working out of Lexington I could just drive up and drop them off, I'm only a few hours away.

dseagle03

Welcome! Good to see you here. Give Rob some time to respond. He is a 1-Man operation.  I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes.

Happy Listening!

First post! I have been following this forum for a couple of weeks and have been fascinated and overwhelmed with all of the information. I have a pair of 2.4's and 2.2's and have already emailed Rob Gillum about the 2.4 upgrades. This is exciting stuff.

vair68robert - I would also love to hear anyone's feedback about this wire configuration. Anybody have any experience and/or theoretical hypotheses?

Maybe it's my imagination but it seems like there's way more Thiel than usual on ebay right now.

68pete

PM sent.   Happy Listening!

I was happy to hear that @thieliste 's speaker shootout declared the Cardas Clear Beyond speaker cables the winner being an owner of Cardas cabling .  But for most the cost puts this out of reach for an average guy . While I tried and didn't succeed in using Cardas 9.5 awg ( the same used in the CCB ) in different configurations , parallel single runs , twisted and used as the negative with Cardas Neutral Reference used as the positive , I'm still always interested in speaker cable designs . The Cardas web site shows the Clear Beyond as a quad star but describes it as an octo star ? But at least they give you more information about cable designs and specs than most other manufactures .

Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling  after reading this thread I've become curious about this design , are any Thiel owners using or have tried this design ? 

68pete

Thank You for citing Transparent cables for your Esoteric player.

Happy Listening!

Well it is surprising but the Humboldt had much more grip than the Diablo 300 on my 3.7s.

Bass was much deeper, detailed and full body with the Humbold, the Diablo sounded lean compared to the Humboldt.

In Europe the Humboldt’s MSRP is 42K, i cannot think of any separates that could compete within this price range.

Well you don't need a degree in physics to determine a 600 wat amp will fill a room easier than a 200 watt amp with siliar amp output to fill a 21,000 cubic foot room 

duramax747

Right On!  Spec(s) are a starting point. Still, numbers do not tell the whole story.

Trust your Ears.

Happy Listening!

I have the 2,4 and when I use mu XA200.5 with them they are a different speaker. 

I use the X600.5 for the 7.2 as they just have the power to handle that load and play in a 35'x60' living room. 

^Interesting. For $55K the Humboldt's specs don't impress, especially for a load like the Thiel CS 3.7's. The Humboldt is rated for 320 Watts into 8 Ohms / doesn't come close to doubling down with 460 Watts into 4 Ohms and is not spec'd into 2 Ohms at all. The less than half the price Diablo on the other hand is rated for 300 into 8 Ohms doubles down to a greater and more linear response of 600 Watts into 4 Ohms (the CS 3.7's actual nominal load) and 950 into 2 Ohms. With the CS 3.7's 4 Ohm nominal / measured 2.4 Ohm minimum load and recommended power of 100 - 600 Watts (into an 8 Ohm load, with the understanding that the amp could double down as necessary) the Diablo appears to be better suited. For much less than $55K one could easily find separates with more apparent appropriate specs.

I had the proof that Thiel speakers are not the bottleneck in a system when i compared my Gryphon Diablo 300 to the Audionet Humboldt in my system.

My Diablo 300 felt like a broken amp compared to the Humboldt driving my CS 3.7s.

That's how much of gap there is in sound quality between the two amps, insane.

I will keep on upgrading the pre-power part of my system for sure in the future.

^Not all Pass Labs are suitable for all Thiels.

gcarlton

Good to see you here again. Agreed, Pass Labs and SR cabling are sonic matches for Thiel Loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

I have cs 2.4 speakers I bought 15 years ago and mated with an old integrated amp. They always sounded just ok and i stopped listening 10 years ago.  I just picked up a new pass labs int 60 with an acoustic zen Krakatoa and level 4 synergistic research speaker cables. Finally, I have equipment that allows the real sound of these wonderful speakers to be heard.

Pieper - Thiel drivers are all highly serviceable. FF can be removed and replaced. Your speakers can live on. 

Sisters should be speakers..

@jafant yes, the tweeters in the cs2.4 have FF.

I know because I have a slight difference in openness between the two: and Rob Gillum told me that this is either due to some electronic problem (which sparked me to do the upgrade in stead of selling the speakers (I had them on eBay for a day or the, before deciding against getting rid of them..).. I have received my Fluke measuring device yesterday and have still to see if both sisters have the same values), or this may be due to a difference in the amount of FF in the tweeters....

If it's electronics, the problem is solvable. If it's the amount of FF there is nothing to be done... 

Y'all have a nice weekend👍🏼

Pieter

Happy Friday! ALL

I just got a great deal on a pair of CS3's. Just 3's no dot anything. They sound great. I found out that they originally came with a bass equalizer. I bought one "working perfectly" on ebay, but, it is problematic, scratchy. I brought it to a shop recommended by my speaker repair place.

I mentioned to the tech that I believed it was only used to boost the bass of the 8 inch woofers, but, he led me to believe that it did more than that, almost like it was constantly monitoring the signal and adjusting it accordingly.

Sounds to me rather impressive for a "black box" .... any info on this?

Thanks!

77jovian

My condolences to your friend. I hope that he can recoup all that has been lost.

Happy Listening!

I had lunch this week with a friend of mine who lost his home in the Marshall fire in Colorado.  It didn't occur to me until we talked that, among his losses, were his Thiel 2 2's.  Sad day.

tomthiel

Thank You, as always, for being on-point.

Happy Listening!

jafant - Yes

The CS2 is the Dynaudio D28AF or later D28/2 which are Ferro-Fluid units.

The CS2.4 coax (I've been told, but not certain) is also F-F

Note there are many different formulae of F-F and only the correct one will keep the original parameters intact. Note also that a specific amount must be used.Too much will roll off the high end and too little doesn't give enough heat protection.

Rob is quite expert, I am not.

tomthiel

Are the tweeters/coax in models CS 2. or 2.4 filled with Fero-Fluid?

Happy Listening!

thieliste

Thank You for citing the Cables in the shoot-out. Cardas certainly had stiff competition. I have always wanted to demo Kubala and Tell-Q cables/cords.

Happy Listening!

@jafant My Gryphon VIP series SC and IC went against Odeion Sigma, Kubala Sosna Sensation, Cardas Clear Beyong and Tellurium Q Statement.

The best all around cables in my system were the Cardas Clear Beyond and therefore ordered them, should receive them whithin 3 weeks.

My Gryphon VIP series are up for sale.

Arvin - congratulations. The KEF Blade 2 is a magnificent piece of design and engineering. It does a whole lot right and I hope you enjoy them thoroughly.

Of course, it doesn't address time or phase, so I trust that you have figured that in your equation. Some Thiel fans get hooked on the coherence stuff and 'don't know what they've lost till it's gone'. (a la Joni Mitchell)

@arvincastro , Good luck, enjoy!

tomthiel

Thank You for the update. Good to read that Progress is being made.

I hope that Rob is doing well as CSS.

Happy Listening!

thieliste

which Cable models were in the shoot-out? How many days/weeks were involved?

Happy Listening!

arvincastro

Nice score on the KEF Blade 2 loudspeaker. Enjoy the Music. Stay well.

Happy Listening!

Hello, all!

I know it’s been a while since I last posted/contributed, but I have certainly kept up by lurking in the shadows.

It is with some regret that I will no longer be a Thiel owner as of tomorrow.  Earlier this afternoon, after a couple of months of toying around with the idea of replacing my Thiel 3.5’s, I was presented with an opportunity that I couldn’t pass up and bought a new pair of Kef Blade 2’s.  I find it fitting that I’m moving on from a speaker that was among the references of its day, to one that has been universally acclaimed as a reference performer, with state-of-the-art design and engineering of today.

I want to say Thank You to jafant, Tom Thiel, unsound…all of you.  I learned so much and truly enjoyed all the interaction.  This thread remains such a shining example of what a forum should be about…and it’s all because of the posters here.

I will continue to lurk, continue to stay notified of new posts, etc.  I may no longer own Thiels (for now), but I still want to be associated with fine, fellow audiophiles like all of you.

Thanks again and stay well…Enjoy the music!

Arvin

Hi guys, i finished my cable shootout in my system and the winer is Cardas Clear Beyond.

Just ordered Clear Beyond SC and IC.

Best balance between high resolution, organic sound and huge slam.

@tomthiel thank you for your cable update.

I would be interested in a workable configuration.. 

Got half the things I need for my speakers.. so good to get started soon... 

Unsound - thanks for the spotlight. Indeed his hypothesis of wire corrosion seems plausible and worth trying.

@tomthiel, I was really trying to specifically point out Post #27 where the poster found a way to resuscitate a midrange driver that might have otherwise been discarded. There may be hope for those that might have otherwise given up in the meantime while your project comes to fruition. 

The last paragraph of your last post succinctly describes what made those early CS 3 series so great (and the above 4 Ohm load!). That you are trying to make them even better is truly exciting!

unsound - thanks for that link; those guys are serious.

But their approach is different than mine. My interest is in updating and augmenting the original design for better performance and future maintainability while honoring the extant supply relationships we built over the decades. The EQ has several obsolete parts for which I have found modern replacements and am developing an update and an upgrade. More news when there's real news.

The tweeter and midrange were off-the-shelf and are obsolete with no satisfying replacements. My approach is to re-purpose the tweeter from the CS5/3.6/2.2 and midrange from the 3.6 which were 100% Thiel-developed and are the terminal drivers of that discrete driver architecture.

The woofer will (at least for now) remain unchanged. The CS3 woofer was our first ground-up design and substantive collaboration with Vifa. It has Jim Thiel breakthroughs of copper shunts and shaped motor components. Its voice coil is over-hung, since we hadn't yet invented underhung motors; but it has very long excursion, rubber surround and generally built like a tank; and it remains serviceable. Furthermore, its performance in that cabinet is custom engineered and highly successful. The CS3 woofer is upgradable to CS3.5 performance via a polymer cone coating available from Rob.

So, my direction is to implant the Thiel UltraTweeter and CS3.6 midrange, both with possible enhancements along with necessary crossover changes and upgraded parts to achieve performance beyond the 3.6, hopefully significantly.

Of significant interest to me is the sealed bass quality, high system efficiency due to the EQ bass boost, and overall high performance in a very compact package.

Progress is being made.

Thanks for the info.

@tomthiel, et al, Saw this on another site:

Renovating Thiel CS3.5 Speakers | Page 2 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Post #27

Is there newfound hope?

@yyzsantabarbara , I think the first graph on each of the respective links might explain what's going on:

KEF LS50 Anniversary Model loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Thiel CS3.7 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Jim Thiel seemed to be rather cognizant of the effects of a steady vs. a variable impedance load on amplifiers. As much as a low impedance is tough on amps, amps don't typically care for a varying load, especially tube amps. A variable load can exacerbate the mechanical / damping issues of analog meters as well.

@Imhififan, at these impedance loads the rated sensitivities can be misleading.

I think that makes sense. The Thiel sensitivity is about 6dB higher than the Kef (90.7dB vs 84.5dB according to Stereophile’s meansurement).

@unsound My meters observation is said in a relative sense. The CS3.7 seems to draw relative less current than the other 2 based on the movement of the meters. It is a rather stark observation because at about the same volume level the CS3.7 does not move the meters and the other 2 do. 

If I was using digital meters I may have exact number to state but the general pattern that I am describing would be the same.

^While not specifically calling out the Coda, I often suggest caution when reading the meters on consumer gear. Despite their not inconsiderable expense, they are almost never calibrated, and more often than not serve to misinform rather than to inform. I'll hazard a guess that the digital meters on some of the newer ultra-expensive gear might be more accurate.

I have an interesting observation from using my CODA #8 amp on 3 sets of speakers including the Thiel CS3.7. Now my following observation are not based on perfectly matched volume levels, but I think I got a good approximation.

My CODA #8 has power meters that tell how much current is being drawn. On my Thiel CS3.7 most of my office listening did not move the needle on the meters. I had to turn up the volume to a level that was inappropriate for the office to see the meters move.

With my RAAL SR1a headphones connected to the CODA #8 via the amp interface box the needle dances at lower volume levels. I could accept that since the amp interface box is inefficient.

I was surprised to see that my KEF LS50’s also cause similar movement of the needle as the RAAL SR1a. This was really surprising. I use the CODA #8 on this system.

I would have expected the Thiel CS3.7 to make the needle dance the most. I do notice sonically when I use an underpowered amp with the CS3.7.

The CODA #8 is a very good amp on the CS3.7. I now use a KRELL 175XD on the CS3.7. This amp is not ideally suited for the CS3.7 but my room is small, and the sound is excellent.

The RAAL SR1a is now driven by a Benchmark AHB2 + Schitt Freya+ tube preamp. I love this combo. I found the AHB2 underpowered for the CS3.7 though I loved the sound on some music.