I have had my used BAT VK-250 for about a month on the 2.4’s. It is such a nice amp for those speakers. So cost effective to,1800.00 with a factory check up. If that helps anyone looking for a nice combination to explore on a friendly budget.
I wanted to ask if anyone has the diagram for the crossovers of their 2.4’s ? Rob sent one to me at one time after I had sent him my bass driver to check out. That was over 2 yrs ago and I can’t find it. I want to at least replace resistors on the xovers now and I just wanted to see the values and locations. And if someone has a recommendation for resistors I would appreciate that also. And then I think to myself while am on that, maybe caps also. But I remember one cap not being able to find the same value in a after market cap. I will have to work on finding that I would guess.
Thank you for any help you could provide.
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marqmike
Good to read that you are enjoying B.A.T./ Thiel CS 2.4 combo. Stay tuned until one of our DIY experts chimes in to address your XO query.
Happy Listening!
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Just in case anyone is interested, updated my Virtual System in Audiogon to reflect the changes that I have made over the last few years. These include some significant upgrades to my digital signal chain.
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11920
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jazzman7
Thank You for the update.
Happy Listening!
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All -
jazzman7 brings up a great point. If you have not made or upgraded your Virtual Systems page, please do so. We work incredibly hard to acquire and build these Audiophile systems. Why not show it?
Happy Listening!
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@tomthiel Reading your post reminded me that I *did* compare with and without biwiring (via that Cardas jumper plate I later sent you). I preferred the sound of the biwire configuration but, yes, it was the binding posts and/or Cardas hookup wire that made the biggest sonic difference.
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Biwire is a special case. There are theoretical and empirical advantages. I've gotten good results with internally-biwired cable (in the same jacket). Problems arise with separate runs that the speaker designer can't control. An individual can evaluate including their own preferences. Also, there are upsides to single-wiring including avaialbility of all the conductive cross-section for big transients. Etc. etc. etc. Wire is a maze as well as amazing. Tom
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beetlemania
Thank You for your DIY hard work on making the CS 2.4/2.4SE loudspeaker, better.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Agreed, Wire IS amazing! Happy Listening!
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I have been considering buying a class-D amp for use with my Thiel CS3.6 and CS2 2. I have focused on the NAD M23 and Bel Canto REF501S amps. Does anybody have experience with these or other class D amps?
I am picking on these models because they advertise minimum impedances of 2 ohms.
Thanks
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agdrago
A capable amp's power specs should read something like:
- 100W @ 8 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven
- 200W @ 4 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven
- 400W @ 2 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven
- Stable at 1 ohm
Amps whose specs diverge much from the above template may sound just fine, or even fantastic, paired with high-efficiency speakers.
But amps that will convincingly, authoritatively drive large, low-efficiency floorstanders with unforgiving impedance curves ought to be able to deliver 150A current peaks, not 15A.
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@devinplombier
Peak current measurements should be in the range of 150 amps not 18 to 30?
Am I correct in assuming this spec alone conclusively makes class-D amps inappropriate for use with the speakers in question? I am somewhat shocked at the response I had from manufacturers when presented with this very question.
I was asking the question looking for a response as to how well received/pleasing is the result of the pairing...sounds like no one does it because it is a bad match.
Is there a list of amps people feel meet electrical and real world listening criteria - favorite pairings?
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agdrago
Bel Canto is a sonic match. Not sure about NAD amp(s)? Anthem is another Class-D consideration. Keep me posted as you audition these brands.
Happy Listening!
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agdrago
Specs are a quick way to whittle down dozens of possibilities, but they're just one factor in a complex equation. Nothing replaces an in-home audition, with your components, in your listening room.
Happy listening!
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I didn't know about this thread... Nice!
So in December I took a road trip and brought home a pair of CS7 speakers. Ever since I've been loving what they do, and rediscovering my music.
I've been skunked trying to find a manual. Plenty for the 7.2 but zippo for the original. Anyone have a copy?
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guy48065
Welcome! back. Nice score on those CS7 loudspeakers. Hang in there, one of The Panel members may have a copy of the CS 7 manual. What other gear is in your System?
Happy Listening!
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My Thiels dominate my 11 x 13 basement room but the sound is glorious.
Most of my gear is 40 years old: Oracle TT, Monster Alpha 1 ctg, PS IV preamp. I upsized my VSP Labs amp (150wpc) for an Adcom 5800 (250wpc) that pushes these speakers to satisfying volume. I’ve recently added a Wiim streamer and last week got a Fosi Box 5 to play with to see if it’s better than the PS phono stage.
I’m moving in a few months to a house with a BIG space for these BIG speakers.
 I’ll post a photo here if i can figure out what this site needs in order to attach it
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guy48065
Great photo! Nice rack of gear as well.
Happy Listening!
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Hello to everybody, is the first time I'm writing here. First of all thanks for this great thread and for all the valuable informations that cannot be found everywhere else. I live in Italy, I'm the happy owner of a CS3.5 system with Electrocompaniet amplification, and I have few questions.
Few years ago I noticed some heavy distorsions from one speaker. I opened it and found a blown 1uF capacitor. I replaced it on both speakers and everything was back to normal. But looking on the net I found a discussion from somebody with the same problem who also published a picture of his crossover, and discovered that where he's got a 8uF cap I got a 6,2uF. So I' m wondering if my crossover is complaying to the original spec or it has been modified.
Moreover I would like to ask to Mr Thiel, if on his projects, he is thinking of a replacement for the midrange speaker. Mine are ok at the moment but one has been repaired at the cone tinsel lead, and if in case of need could I use the scanspeak 10F8424 as is suggested somewhere on the net ? By the way, somebody here has done it and is happy with that ?
Thanks everybody and excuse me if any mistake,
Massimo
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Massimo - The early 3.5 tweeter feed used a 6.5uF feed cap. It was tweaked in 1987 to 8uF, which is what you want. Only buy now if you need it. I will have a much better replacement soon.
The 3.5 mid and tweeter are front-burner projects. We are incorporating late-stage design elements into the 3.6 midrange platform - dual cone, advanced motor, to fit the CS3, 3.5 and 3.6. The 3.5 tweeter is obsolete and our replacement will also incorporate late-stage advancements to fit the CS2, 2.2, 3, 3.5, 3.6 and 5. Completion of midranges and tweeters is necessary to re-work the crossovers between them. For now, get your advice from Coherent Source Service.
The ScanSpeak 10F8424 is not robust enough; it will burn out. SS’s recommendation for drop-in is 12W/8524G00. CSS may have that driver or another of their choice.
Tom
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@tomthiel - Very exciting news!
Have a pair of CS3’s in need of tweeters and midranges. Look forward to applying your replacements and other improvements you have been working on!
Like many others on this forum big fan of Thiel’s and own many pairs and want more :).
Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge to us all here!
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jonandfamily
Thank You for providing the link for Thiel Manual(s).
Happy Listening!
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Once again thank you very much Mr Thiel for your quick and detailed answer. Is really remarkable such a level of care and attention for a product discontinued long ago. Looking forward future news , hopefully could be implemented also here, far away from the States
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Yes thank you jonandfam for the Way Back Machine link!
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All -
over on U.S. Audiomart there is a SmartSub2 with Integrator Module. Location is PA. I hope this SS2 finds the next good home.
Happy Listening!
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I saw that the other day , did they really retail for $15,000? If so would that have been the most expensive speaker that Thiel produced ?
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All -
over on U.S. Audiomart there are a pair of VIFA D25AGG-05-06 tweeters. Location in FL. I hope these find the next good home.
Happy Listening!
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Hi all, I've just picked up a pair of Thiel CS 1.2's. Totally new to Thiel, but have stumbled across this forum after some digging. I've seen discussed here the power-hungry nature of the speakers. My question is, is there a budget friendly way to drive them adequately? I'm in grad school and discretionary spending is gonna be low for the next few years. Any advice would be appreciated
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spacebird42
Welcome! Good to see you here today. We have a few fans/owners of the CS 1.2 loudspeakers. Stay tuned until one of The Panel members chimes in to address your query. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and System.
Happy Listening!
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@spacebird42 , The CS 1.2’s with their moderate sensitivity and perhaps more importantly above 4 Ohm impedance they are amongst the easier Thiels to power. They can not go very low in bass , play very loud l, aren’t meant for large rooms. So used as intended they aren’t that power hungry. Due to their lack of low bass they can sound a bit tipped up. Avoid amplification that’s on the bright side, has mid-range suck out or is loose in bass. If you can find an old ss conrad-Johnson MF-80 that has been recently re-capped; I think you will be very happy. BTW, used alpha-core MI 2 speaker cables are a relatively inexpensive choice that will work beautifully in such a system.
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@unsound Thanks for the input, glad to know the 1.2's aren't quite so demanding.
@jafant My system is a frankenmonster cobbled together from shitty components that have been gifted to me. However, it plays music and I reallllllly like music. Been on a Japanese jazz fusion kick lately, listening to a lot of Casiopea and Masayoshi Takanaka (not really jazz). Jam bands, jazz, funk, and early 2000's rap are my typical listening habits. Mendelssohn or Bach when I'm feeling snooty and/or studying
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spacebird42
Thank You for the follow up. That is a nice mix of Music.
Happy Listening!
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@tomthiel
I’m sure you have already mentioned this somewhere in this ginormous thread.
But could you give some insights As to “the Thiel products that never came to be?”
I’m thinking about what Jim might have had in his plans before he passed away.
Or perhaps some different ideas Jim thought about or investigated for speaker designs that never saw the light of day.
cheers
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Thiel Non-Model History – products that never were -
Prof – thank you for this question. Indeed we’ve covered a lot of Thiel history here over the years, but little about developments and decisions behind the curtain. This story would fill a memoir, which sadly, has not written itself. So, I’ll shine some light, while limiting the scope and depth for manageability. There’s always more.
Context -
Perhaps somewhat oddly, I’ll start at the end. I was informed by an insider that at the end Jim was working on an omnidirectional full-range driver. Such an omnidirectional driver would fit nicely into our global orientation of the speaker as mirror-image of the microphone and belief which we shared, that the omnidirectional mic captures sound most similarly to the ear, and far more faithfully than any directional counterpart. Although directionality in mics and speakers is a sad necessity in stage and professional arenas, the requirements can be more well managed in dedicated playback situations with less sonic degradation and higher retention of sonic information via room treatment and tuning while retaining inherently superior omnidirectionality.
I can’t speak directly to that late idea-in-development. But I can recount early non-products based on first-hand knowledge of my brother and my twenty year lived history with Thiel Audio. What follows is a summary sketch of some of the experimental non-products during the early years of Thiel Audio.
Let’s venture back to 1974 at my Georgewown Road homestead. As a rung on our ladder to self-sufficiency, my Conceptions Design Studio had taken on Walter Kling as co-designer-craftsman, and secured early success in the high artisan-crafts marketplace. Our informal community sought a venture that would utilize and engage all the willing members beyond Walter and myself, in an enterprise with enough breadth, depth and horizons to support us for our forseeable future. This was the 1970s when autonomy and self-employment were hallmarks of the emergent counter-culture. We decided to fund Jim for a year to investigate whether his electronics knowledge could be responsibly applied to this task of right livelihood for a group of friends seeking meaningful co-employment.
Sidebar: At this time there were no computers outside large institutions, no internet, and only nascent knowledge of how loudspeakers really worked. The Thiele/Small Parameters were barely a decade old and not widely in use. Jim was inclined toward electronics with a first-interest in circuit innovation. More sophisticated amplification is where we first explored. Loudspeakers were seen as necessary tools to prove and improve amplifier advancements. Our survey of available loudspeakers revealed competing limitations and trade-offs, and no particular solution for accurate, revealing laboratory monitors.
Non-Product History -
In that first exploratory year we discussed, explored and studied what was needed for a really accurate and transparent research transducer. What floated to the top was a spherical globe around 1.5 feet diameter, fully covered with small (1/2” diameter) full-range dynamic drivers. More extended bass response could be achieved via greater sphere size and driver count, and/or by crossing over to a powered sub-woofer or folded horn. We built both a powered subwoofer as well as a 6’x 6’ folded horn to Jim’s specifications. The long story can be summarized to our realization that we were in over our heads with far more questions and considerations than our resources and scope would accommodate.
Lets count the most significant trials to date:
Non-product 1: Spherical multi-driver hung from a wire
Non-product 2: Powered subwoofer
Non-product 3: Folded horn subwoofer
All were built, tested, evaluated and set aside as exhibits for the Future Non-Museum.
Next stage was a distillation of contending technologies. It was clear that powering individual drivers with individual amps held extreme promise. Each amp could be tailored to the particular demands of each driver, and low-level, active crossover circuitry before the amp could produce better results at lower overall costs. The prototype that emerged was a tri-amplified three way, small format speaker with active crossovers including bass boost.
Sidebar: Note that Meridian had not yet come to market and to our knowledge there were no such products in the world. We determined that despite our collective enthusiasm for the concept, we as a self-funded fledgling enterprise could not support market penetration of such a product. To reduce further temptation, we burned the prototype on the pasture pyre.
Non-product 4: Self-powered speaker
Further distillation led us to what became the model 01, a 10”x 1.5” actively equalized, high sensitivity, full range speaker covering 25Hz to 18kHz. That product was fully developed along with its manufacturing engineering and feasibility studies. We began selling that product to local markets in 1975 with encouraging results.
By this time, our founding team included Jim, myself, my wife Kathy, Walter Kling and Fred Collopy with talents in business design-development, and emerging personal computing. I considered that team of 5 as essential for critical skills to take the plunge of full-time commitment to this business undertaking.
By request from users, Jim next developed the conventional 6.5”x 1” ported bookshelf model 02 to higher popularity than the model 01.
Our third market product was to be the model 03 a floor-standing 10” 3-way. Through its development we discovered that time-phase coherence was an important missing ingredient normally traded-off as not important enough for its trouble. We sidelined the conventional model 03.
Non-product 5: Conventional tower 3-way floorstanding model 03
We struggled for the next year and a half before deciding to accept the impossible challenge of producing a coherent speaker. The actualized model 03 with its sloped baffle time-aligning all the drivers, and first-order slopes maintaining phase alignment and impulse integrity was introduced in late 1978. It utilized the active bass equalization of the model 01 which persisted through the 03 conventional, 03 coherent, 03a, CS3 and CS3.5 (the fifth generation model 3, including the seminal non-coherent original version.)
The founding team survived only a few years, and the loss of Walter and Fred were nearly catastrophic to the business. I consider that upheaval as a fundamental loss.
Non-product 6: The fully functioning involvement of all 5 founders
As we gathered experience we learned to evaluate and accept/reject potential products in the hypothetical phase with minimal commitment and expense. That’s the highlights; let’s stop here for today.
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Fascinating reading! Thank you, Tom.
You are right, there’s a biography in there waiting to be written. Until then, I look forward to your future posts.
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Tom,
that was absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much.
It blows me away that Jim was contemplating an Omni durational driver.
I am a fan of Omni directional speakers -,I’ve owned MBLs before.
with Jim’s engineering chops I bet his design would’ve been spectacular.
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Prof - I know very little about this topic, only what was 'leaked' by an insider and not denied by another.
But, as I said, the approach harkens back to the very beginning, before we settled on dynamic drivers in an enclosure; and it attends to our shared first-principles of point-source, freely radiating energy without close range diffractive interference. And as I recall (from about 1974) our reasons for rejection were based less on technical appeal than on costs to market such a radical approach . . .
Sidebar: At our first 1977 CES, we twenty-somethings showed our model 01 and 02 and a static 03 prototype, and offered an unheard-of 10 year warranty - all to much interest. I remember being teased by an industry somebody that being from Kentucky, weren't we supposed to be barefoot and pregnant and sipping moonshine . . . ? Cognitive dissonance. Imagine if we had showed up with seriously radical products beyond our active equalizer.
Since this is all water long under the bridge, I invite anyone to comment that might know more than I about this mythical omnidirectional project.
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Tom,
I think I’ve mentioned it before, especially since you were originally doing the cabinets for Thiel speakers: the CS6 Speakers that I had in my home for a little while back around 2001 or 2002, Where in I think the Amberwood finish.
They remain one of the most beautiful and refined looking speaker finishes I’ve seen. The craftsmanship and fit and finish really put a shame Most other loud speakers of the time. IMO.
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@tomthiel , I do this with some apprehension, but as you say "Since this is all water long under the bridge,..." When Thiel Audio was still in business, but suspicions of Jim’s health concerns were begining to be rumoured, a reliable source (who out of respect will remain anonymous) at Thiel swore me to secrecy to share that Jim was indeed considering an all-out Thiel with a price point much beyond Thiel’s previous offerings that would feature an omni-directional design.
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unsound - thanks for this input. It makes sense, including the context of return to a foundational idea before the company's launch - but with a life time of experience. Jim built every design on all the accumulated knowledge gained along the way. That product might have been truly awesome.
I routinely hear that the CS5 was Thiel's only cost-no-object offering. It was a niche-stretch at the time, but not cost-no-object. In fact Jim and Kathy chopped thousands of dollars at retail off the sell price due primarily to insufficient confidence of a price jump from under $2500 for the top of our line CS3.5 to what wanted to be a $15K CS5. They kept it under $10K by the loss of some product content plus damagingly thin margins, especially for a factory stretching its technical capacity. Jim emphatically stated that he would never design a speaker better than the CS5.
Anyhow, I'm pleased that he broke through that ceiling. And wish the world had it.
Thanks again.
Tom
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Has anyone ever seen a pair of CS1.5 that have white cones in the mid-woofers?
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I tried to post photos but unable from my computer. The mid-woofers look like they belong. They have rubber surrounds but white cones instead of dark cones, and they have the little black pointed dust caps that others have. The speakers sound wonderful.
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I suspect Rob Gillum has rebuilt them as CS1.5’s spider cages are prone to separating from the woofers over time.
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As most of our 1989 CS5s were being ordered in Rosewood, and our Rosewood was true Brazilian Rosewood, and since the term 'Rosewood' had been applied for decades to another wood often called Santos Rosewood; and considering that Brazilian Rosewood was planned to be embargoed in 1991, and that my extensive stash was not unlimited . . .
I wanted a different upscale offering to ease the Rosewood pain. And I wanted that new wood to be affordable enough to offer without significant upcharge, and I required a sustainable-yield, responsible source. You may guess that such requests are generally promised in the international wood market, but never honored. The wood business is dirty.
I embarked on a trip to Brazil with our long-term wood importer Jim Martin to sort the liars from the thieves. Turns out behind the curtain one can readily discern the lay of the land. Visiting 13 Brazilian mills in 11 days demonstrated that there were no honest brokers in Brazil. Surprise - no. We set off for Bolivia and found our solution in Santa Cruz de la Sierra on the upland plateau east of the Andes. Suto Wood Products was operated by a 4th generation Japanese 'cowboy' who exported most of their output to Japan as small millwork and blanks for various manufacturing operations 'back home'. We got the grand tour of the extensive mill, some feeder lots, the University Forestry Department and the Department of Forestry. These guys were looking for a customer like Thiel, plus Jim held the power of president of the US Forestry Fund, which sponsors conservation and planting projects for suppliers to US wood products manufacturers. Good fit.
We struck up a wonderful long term relationship and were pleased to help fund a unique planting project with the Chiquitano People - the curare blowers. The project succeeded because their land was isolated by swamps and poison darts from timber poaching. That's another story.
The wood is called Pao Ferro, one of many called 'Iron Wood'. When the Germans steal it through Brazil, the export portion goes through the southeastern Brazilian Port of Santos over 3,000 miles away from its growth habitat in upland Bolivia. I wanted to separate our wood from this compromised history by coining our own name for it.
In the native habitat we learned that their are two grouped species in this timber offering. Machaerium scleroxylon is the harder, slower growing upland Bolivian species with fewer extractives, irregular dark lines and lighter colors. It can look like prime Brazilian Rosewood. Machaerium acutifolium is the lowland species from Venezuella to NE Argentina with a more regular purple color. Suto was willing to separate varieties and grade for my particular preferences.
We called the upland species 'Amberwood' and the lowland species 'Morado' (purple in Bolivian Spanish.) Bypassing the normal multi-step veneer supply chain, and pre-selecting our grades at the mill before export allowed us to offer this exotic wood at our standard finish pricing. That relationship persisted all the way till the sale to New Thiel. I'm glad you like it - I do to.
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