Thiel Owners

I have not read about an owner using Pass Labs on those ultra high-end speaker models.  I suppose that the top of the line PL would work nicely.

Figure $100k on a pair of said speakers. Add another $100K (at least) on gear to drive them. Finally, most important, another $50K (low end) on proper cabling to tie the system together.

By my math= $250K to get started.  Happy Listening!

jafant,

Why? Is something wrong or some deficiency with my current Pass amps?

Thanks
nkonor

As above,

I only know of (1) Thiel Dealer that has these speakers post Jim's death.
Goldprint Audio in NC.  Taylor is a good guy and operates out of his personal residence.

He gives the newest offerings a positive review. He carries Krell and Kimber Kable as well.

Absolutely! oblgny-

Thiel ,under Jim's designs and production, does serve as a reference point.
After all, some of you guys own models 20+ years old and older. Backed by
Rob there in Kentucky for continued service and parts, it is a no-brainer.

Others like Dave Garretson whom offers excellent OEM parts and upgrades to cross-over (s). Seals the deal for me.  My decision was quite easy.

Happy Listening!

Nice! nkonor-
when one steps up to that level, Rockport or Marten, be prepared to step up in electronics (CH Precision, Constellation, Gryphon, dCS) as well.

Happy Listening!

Moving away from the Thiel platform is a difficult task in that doing so laterally or moving up the proverbial food-chain obviously comes at a cost.  No one here has yet commented on the new Thiel product line which, as it so happens to be, has as much to do with Jim Thiel as I do. 

The return-on-investment Thiel extends is considerable in terms of sonics - personally speaking Thiel has become my reference point for what a loudspeaker can do.  I am, as always and as an Audiogonian, curious about how other manufacturers compare. And I will no doubt purchase some others when opportunity arises. I've enjoyed Von Schweikert, Totem, Magnepan, Alon, KEF, DYNAUDIO. In this somewhat limited field the only manufacturer that comes close - to my ears - is Magnepan. It was interesting to learn of Jim Thiel's appreciation for planar speakers in an earlier post here. 

For many including myself, this almost insane pursuit of fidelity is fantastically enjoyable. I believe that I was looking to buy a vintage Pioneer receiver a few years back when I stumbled onto this site and saw what my absence from actively pursuing hifi had become. To paraphrase my girl-friend's universal comment when she comes to my house, "is THAT new?"  Almost as universally my reply is, "yes."

One of the questions I repeatedly ask of winemakers is whom they respect as winemakers. The answers are illuminating. I have as a result moved afar from my previous comfort zone with winemakers I once considered to be my benchmarks, my reference points. They remain in my vino-wheelhouse as Thiel remains in my audio-wheelhouse, always there, always referred to, always curious about others because of them. 

Wow. I've gone off point again...

jafant,

I liked a pair of Martens at last years AXPONA. Just $125,000.00

Prof,

Musicians listen at live levels all the time. Me? Just some of the time.

nkonor

Guys,

Looked and found Avalon receipt. Delievered November 2005. 12yrs, Must be time for new Speakers. I have been thinking, Rockports for last year or so. No problems with Avalon drivers; Well broke-in.

Nice points/counterpoints- Guys.

On occasion, like nkonor moving to Avalon, I have read about previous Thiel owners moving to an Eggelston, Magico or Verity Audio speaker.
It does not happen often (leaving Thiel) and making a lateral move.

Marten speakers also come into my mind as well. 

Does anyone know how a Thiel would fare w/ Spectral, Souloution, or Vitus Audio gear?

Happy Listening!

Guys,

Also, took me about 4yrs of Sonus Farber, ProAc, Wilsons to finally settle on the Avalons w/ Spectral DMA 360s ; now with my current setup.
All of you have been taken by Thiel legacy Speakers. I agree ; They are great Speakers for the $ on used market.
 
Nkonor; myself, I needed to move on. 
Beat to All on this Journey 

It was sad when Kathy left Thiel. She was the best.

Wow.  I've never blown a driver in any speaker.  You must enjoy loud listening levels!!!!

Guys,

In general the 3.5s were the Thiels for me with a pair of Forte' model 7 monoblocks and then "Magic" with a pair of Spectral DMA 90s used as 200w monoblocks. When Kathy sent another midrange and a letter saying; No more drivers would be replaced under warranty!  (Panic) I sold them and moved on.

Prof, 

Audio memory from at least 15-16 yrs ago is on a macro level for the 3.5s which I had for 7-8yrs. At least once a yr. I would blow a midrange or tweet. Kathy Gornick would have the replacement to me before I could get the driver boxed and to the Post Office. You remember things like this!

 Oblgny,

I do not remember models but both larger than 3.5s. Neither had midrange of 3.5s but yes, you knew the bass was from a larger speaker.
There were (2) models of the Avalon Opus, ceramic tweet, mid and woof. ---- And ceramic tweet, mid, carbon woof with a small subwoofer firing out the bottom/ The model I have. No need for a separate sub with proper placement in treated room And  Pass monoblocks.

nkonor,

Cool.  Again, I'm sorry if I'm asking you to repeat info that exists somewhere in these 30 pages of posts....but did you try the last models - CS 2.7 and/or CS 3.7?

If so, what did you find more compelling about the older model's sound?

I'm certainly not trying to second guess your decision, I'm simply curious.  (I happen to have been auditioning many possible replacement speakers for my 3.7s and it's been very hard for me to find something competitive).

It's been quite a while since I had the older CS6s which I loved, or heard the 3.5/3.6s.  But one of the things I immediately heard from the 3.7 is a smoother, more coherent midrange, and less fussy about the listener positioning.  There was always something of a slight "combing" effect I heard on other Thiels, and a hollowness that could appear in the upper midrange, which I never get from the 3.7s.  Just my impressions...

I concur- what's a few hertz between friends?

oblgny-

upon my first demo of the CS 2.4, that was an immediate impression-
a correct feel for highs, mids and lows.  To coin Conrad Johnson "it just sounds right". 

Happy Listening!

Right On! nkonor-

Happy Listening!

Good to see you- prof

Happy Listening!

nkonor...

Good point on the 3.5's midrange.  I find that the 3.6's,  for lack of a better term, seem to over-emphasize the thick of the midrange while the 3.5's offered a more "spacious" replication? I also notice a more evident, but typically correct feel for the bass - particularly at the conservative volume level I listen at. Nothing I've tried to put a finger on rings as a coloration of the sound, rather a considerably larger speaker's difference compared to a smaller one's.  The 3.5's may have measured a little deeper with the bass, but I feel it more with the 3.6's. 

As I've said in the past, "what's a few hertz here or there amongst friends?"

Are you using a sub with the Avalons?

Had Thiel 3.5s. Reference in their day. Midrange to die for. Tried to replace with newer Thiels and they all did a lot right, but none had that 3.5 midrange. Just my 

nkonor,

Thanks.  I realize I should have asked:  Which Thiel speakers did you own?

As above-
it is quite alright with me if you guys are associated, acquainted, or affiliated
with brands and dealers/retailers. This, too, can provide valuable information that some of us may not be in a position to acquire.

Give a shout-out for your local/fave dealer or retailer.

Happy Listening!

Right On! William-

hopefully, everyone here is contributing from a hands-on, real time, perspective.  Nothing wrong in reading the Audio based webzines and print rags.  We all need to get out to a dealer/retailer and listen, listen, listen with our own ears /music.

Thanks! for sharing the hot tip.

Happy Listening!

Psssst...

Upscale still has it for $3899.  Reno has one for $3795...with a 1 year.  

Why am I looking at the Neo like it's gone...?

Happy hunting/listening!

jafant...

No, I almost bit on a used INT150 from Upscale which I balked on for a reason that escapes me now. I heard the Neo through a pair of Wilson Somethingorothers - $16,000 - prior to my purchase months before at Audio Den, the shop within walking distance from my house. 

Sorry, but for $16,000 speakers would have to make me coffee every morning as well, maybe even make my bed. After the Wilsons we hooked up the Maggie 1.7 and .7 speakers which, at the time, had me favor the .7. To my ears the .7 were more articulate, finding the larger 1.7's to lose a little definition in the high end by comparison - believe it or not. Perhaps because the larger bass panel seemed to round out the overall sonics?

I believe the INT150 was around $4,000. The Neo, which was returned to Simaudio as part of their trade-up program, was $4,500 after a 20% discount off the regular price, along with a full factory warranty and participation in the program as well. This is the top model with phono input and DAC. 

In retrospect I believe I would have jumped at the INT150 had it been available through Reno Hifi, with whom I've purchased 3 Pass amps in the past. This isn't a knock against Upscale Audio by any means since I haven't conducted business with them, but Mark at Reno has earned my business through his outstanding knowledge and service. I don't believe that Upscale offers any sort of warranty on the INT150 - I think it's still for sale at this time - so that's what ultimately steered me onto the Neo. 

You already know well of my affinity for Pass Labs with Thiel. The synergy between two products that present timbre, presence, and depth so well is, for lack of an almost over-blown descriptive, utterly amazing. 

For the record, I am not related to nor personally acquainted with anyone from Pass Labs, Thiel, Reno Hifi, Simaudio, Balanced Audio Technology, Magnepan, or Audio Research.  My previously unsolicited opinions on their products were offered as results from real-time, hands-on,  Audiogon-induced experiences.  Damn this site...!

I still reserve a place in my heart for the vintage Marantz, Pioneer, and Sansui receivers, all of which represented the absolute sh*t during my introduction to high fidelity back in the '70's. 

It's proven to be a long strange trip, indeed. 

Happy Listening!

oblgny-

prior to buying the Neo 340i , did you sample any of the Pass Labs integrated(s) ?

Nice pics! nkonor-

Good to see you- prof

Happy Listening!

oblgny,

Bought the Avalons new. Mine our carbon woofers. The ceramics are bass shy. The ceramics are what I have seen for sale occasionally. Spectral owner for 20yrs. Pass does it for me now.

Best to you on this Journey 
nkonor

nkonor...

Did you get the Avalons on the used market or new?   I've seen a few for sale here once in a while - they're beautiful constructs indeed. 

While I'm still content with my Neo 340i integrated,  I will second my appreciation for Pass Labs - I had an X150.5 and it brought out the best in my 3.5's. (Damn! I shoulda waited until I got my 3.6's before I let that go.)

But that partially funded my 3.6's so I can't really kvetch much. 

IMHO, Avalons do everything the Thiels did and better. Image, Soundstage, Bass, Smooth,Coherent. I drove them with Spectral electronics, but Pass is the match for me. IMHO some tubes are a must with either Thiels or Avalons and vinyl; But both benefit from SS power.

nkonor,

Sorry I haven't followed your posts in this thread, but do I understand correctly from your last post:  You've moved from Thiels to the Avalon speakers?  Is that right?

If so, how do they compare?

Thanks.

Thanks! for sharing- nkonor

For now, updated system page

A last word on the 2.7/3.7 models;
these are not inferior speakers by any means.  They continue the Thiel tradition in spades. On other forums that offer advice on JT's designs, the 7.2, is very highly regarded as the best speaker he ever built.

Happy Listening!

Much Thanks! for the kind words- oblgny

I would suggest a demo if possible on a pair of CS 2.7 or 3.7 only for the fact that those last driver designs prior to JT's passing are a little different from his older (including my CS 2.4SE) drivers/designs.

Personally, I have not heard his design(s) outside of the "CS" series.
Still, from you guys that own and cherish those vintage models, I venture to report that the time/phase coherency is in full effect.  Very impressive!

Having heard and spent time w/ the CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and 3.7, I can easily report that all of those models are outstanding in their own right.
I chose the CS 2.4 SE as I found it to be a little sweeter on all fronts, plus, my listening space (not large enough) to provide the 3.7 its proper due.
Another factor would require a monster solid state power amp over-and-above for the 3.7 model to really "sing".

Yes, by all means, get out there and listen to those 2.7/3.7 models as they appear in the used market. Between Audiogon, eBay and Craigslist, the odds are favorable that you will find one.

I will continue to do my part , like robinbarbour, to report them as they pop up for sale.

Happy Listening!

Good catch! robinbarbour

I concur, in that, the seller will take $4K easy on those speakers.
Hope they find a good, new, home.

Happy Listening!

robinbarbour...

I just checked those 3.7's on eBay per your suggestion and would have to admit that the cosmetic imperfections wouldn't truly irk me any if I were in the market.  I would bid lower because of them however.  

There's a pair of 3.5's on here listed as "mint" with the photos showing a dimpled tweeter - hardly worthy of the mint claim and,  at $750,  a tad higher than what similar condition 3.5's go for. Because of their relatively small size - for Thiel - 3.5's seem to suffer more cabinet imperfections than 3.6 and above, which is understandable.  A pair of Klipsch CF-3's that I bought 24 years ago sported a couple of living room paint spatters and a number of cabinet scratches from various furniture rearrangements and whatnot. 

I am curious as hell as to how those 3.7's sound but, alas, without a chance to hear them in person...sheesh. Then again, I have yet had an opportunity to audition a Thiel prior to purchasing,  and have yet to be disappointed. Lucky me!

Perhaps the most surprising thing about this thread is the fact that almost all of the participants have purchased Thiel used - and still sing high praises.  I consider myself very fortunate to have discovered this thread, equally fortunate to have gotten sober advice from the likes of jafant, unsound, nkonor, and many others. 

As jafant related in a previous post, I too, remember vividly when I hooked my 2.2's ( ! ) up and was amazed before I made it back to my chair. Then came the 2.3's, two pairs of 3.5's, and now the 3.6's. Unless a pair of 3.7's come up locally and the financial stars align for me, my 3.6's are, until then, my favorite. It just doesn't get better than this. 

Cheers to Jim!

Guys - Just saw a pair of 3.7 on eBay. Some dings and scratches, but there are still some to be had in the used market.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-CS3-7-Loudspeakers-Cherry-Finish-Cosmetic-Flaws-Local-Pickup-Only-/252...

Jafant 

Tranpsarent sp or pc?please provide model as well .

Thanks

jafant,

I would be interested to see your system update.

Thanks
nkonor

Transparent, of course.

jafant, 

Which cables are you using to listen at high volume through your Music Direct catalog?

I don’t suppose anyone here has heard the heretical new Thiel speakers?
Maybe at one of the audio shows? If so, any impressions?

I admit that the technical goals of Jim Thiel’s time/phase coherence are compelling to me. And one of the chief characteristics I hear in my Thiels vs other speakers is that last bit of tidyness and focus, where all the acoustic energy related to an individual instrument or voice seems all lined up in the right spot to create a palpable focus and density to images. Other speakers tend to sound somewhat more "vague," imaging-wise.

I want to attribute that to the time/phase coherence of the speakers. But I have to allow that it may not be, as there are debates about the audibility of such things, and maybe even some of my listening positions mean the time/phase is less coherent. But whatever causes it, the Thiels certainly seem to have the characteristics I’m talking about.

I also find the concept of timbral accuracy a fascinating and vexing one.
The Thiels sound exceedingly "right" tonally for instruments and voices.
Though I have also heard some speakers with an almost opposite approach - e.g. Joseph, Hales, Waveform, MBL and others - produce a tremendous sense of timbral realism as well. So which aspect of speaker design is most important in reproducing accurate timbre is still an unanswered question to my mind.