Thiel Owners

tomthiel

Good to see you here today. Thank You for the continued insight and speaking points on all things power amps.  Looking forward in reading more about your amp auditions.  Happy Listening!

audiojan

Thank you for the follow up with the SS2.  Happy Listening!

Tom. I’ll be getting the new Parasound JC5 tomorrow, so will pass on how my 3.7 work with that amp. It’s got the power. Probably will take a month to warm it up properly.

I would love to see such a list of 'best Thiel amps'. But I am not current on the market offerings beyond the usual suspects listed in this forum. I know that "best sound ever" at the 3.7 introduction was the new biggest and best Bryston.

Yes, I meant Classe in general. When I was paying attention, they had one circuit topology executed at different power levels and passive component qualities. They were (and probably still are) a high current design. Dave Nauber, president of Classe, is a long-time Thiel associate and could speak knowledgeably about how their amps drive Thiel.

As to what to look for, the 2-ohm current requirement behavior is the major Thiel problem. After you limit the field to those amps that can, the rest becomes personal taste and opinion. As a personal story, I fell in love with Tim de Paravicini's Esoteric Audio Research amps in the mid 80s on the CS3.5. We set it up at CES to considerable delight of the pre-show manufacturers walk-around. However, some badass bass showed that it couldn't control the back emf of the equalized woofer. We abandoned it and most other tube designs. The point is that I would look at EAR's tube or solid state amps because they have such gorgeous delicacy, and ask the hard questions about driving near 2-ohm loads - show EAR the load curve.  I would also look at PS BHK-300 for similar reasons. In fact, I'll be auditioning a pair of those later in the fall. My must have factor is a current source designed for that load. The rest is preference.

Tom - Thanks for the response. Just to clarify: by "other amps in the family,"  are you referring to the Classe family?
Finally, can we get a list going of amps that satisfy the continuous 2 ohm criterion? Certainly the big Krells, the Classe Omega ... but, what else?  And, what does one look for besides a 2 ohm provision in the published specs? Are there other ways of discovering that an amp without the 2 ohm spec will work?
Todd

Todd - I am a strong proponent of the 2 ohm deal, since Thiels drop near 2 ohms over broad frequency ranges. I make a big deal out of the requirement because many current sources exhibit considerable anomalies as they run out of oomph. That distress shows up in many sonic results. And those results are blamed on the speaker as sounding x, y, z.

Amp circuits are quite individual, so the 2 ohm double may not always apply. And, as you say, something as big as that Classé is not likely to run out of power in any normal situation. Other amps in the family produce 3x the 8 ohm rating into 2 ohms. That topology is both stable and plenty strong.

My intent has been to advise against amps that are not stable driving 2 ohms. For instance the PS Audio BHK-250 stereo amp is rated as "stable into 2 ohm load", but in fact can only drive that load for short durations. It is not suitable to drive your 3.7s and PS will tell you that if you ask the right questions. Which is my point. Get an amp that will drive a 2 ohm load continuously.

unsounds post  from 09-18-2018 re the doubling down into 2 ohm requirement has me wondering -- can we once and for all clear this up: is it absolutely necessary to have that capacity in order to drive Thiels (I'm thinking of my 3.7s) to perfection? I mean, very few amps advertise this ability. What about the Classe CA-M600 (600 8 ohms/1200 4 ohms)? Not rated into 2 ohms, but certainly enough current, no?
Todd

audiojan - Thanks for the update. I have become aware of the audibility of the midrange hash introduced by a port / passive radiator having effects on the whole presentation. I recently participated in a product development blind A/B test where everyone heard that hash in dramatic fashion. (Tannoy - ported)

There is a hypothetical possibility to take your improvements even further.   See Atkinson's CS2.4 review. Note the -10-20db junk from 100 to 1kHz.  Similarly the reflex tuning introduces high-pass phase shift on the woofer roll out. My wish list includes immobilizing the radiator for sealed box second order bass rolloff (like the 3.5) and augmenting with second order SS x Integrator bass. The potential improvements intrigue me greatly.

Of course such modifications would apply to other models as well.

In that light, I hope to find a Thiel Integrator: Any physical condition, $1K max. 

Glad you're a happy camper with the SS2. I'm the same with mine and the 2.7s.

Enjoy!!

Got my SS2 setup yesterday and I'm floored how much my CS2.4's improved. I expected "more of the same", but playing with the Integrator and changing from augmented to crossover at 50Hz, the speakers took on a completely new dimension. Even smoother, the sound stage got completely 3 dimensional (you can easily pinpoint instruments not only to the left/right, but height as well and front/back).

I could not be happier with the combination of the CS2.4's with the SS2/Integrator.

stevecham

Good to see you.  Happy Listening!

gasman117
Good to see you here. We all were stung my the obama years to state the very least. Thank You for sharing your Audio journey. It is certainly time to get back in the game with a sweet pair of CS 2.4 loudspeakers.
You will not regret it.  Keep us posted as you re-build a system.

Happy Listening!

Dave: Get those 2.4s! You won't regret it.

My audio journey. Warning, it's long!

In high school 1974, large Advents, turntable, Yamaha CR-2020, Ortofon cartridge and i was hooked. Listened every chance and late at night with cans.
Wanted more power, got an SAE Mark IV power amp with a SAE Mark 1 pre. Gorgeous looking. Good, not great sound but plenty of power except i would pop the temp cutoff on the amp playing the speakers out the window. But i stopped my journey there, never being overjoyed by the sound. Life got busier.
Then off to grad school, career, kids, and so forth.
Fifteen years ago i reentered the audio market with bucks in pocket. i accumulated Thiel 2.2s in line with Proceed CDP, Levinson 38 preamp, Levinson 332. Loved everything about the sound. Huge soundstage, detail, imaging, full deep bass.I was in love. I would fall asleep with the music washing over me like a warm summer breeze.
Trade up to Revel Studios. What an extended tight bass!! Just more everything!! More precise detailed highs, more low end, but a tight sound not seeming as smooth as the Thiels. Narrower soundstage too. I didn't complain, I just was complacent about the sound. No internet to reach out to for advice. I had no clue of the differences the interaction of components made.

Next the  kids are in sports, i'm trying to exercise, chase kids, make money, keep wife happy, i get tinnitus too. Had financial crunch in 2008 and sold my equipment. Moovin' on.

2018. Kids are out of the house now. Tinnitus not too bad now so here we go!!

I saw some 2.4s on Audiogon, and locally too!! Even better! Hmmm, maybe it's time.

More in a moment.

Dave






 

If the amp could double down into 2 Ohms they would probably be braggging about. Unless it can be absolutely confirmed, I’d assume it can’t. There just aren’t that many amps that can sustain double down to 2 Ohm performance.

Missed out on the BAT VK-500, but now seeing Cary 500mb for similar price.  Specs/reviews that I have found are extremely favorable BUT don't indicate the ability to drive a 2 ohm load, which makes me assume they will not stand up well for the CS 2.3s.  Am I right, or should I consider these amps?

Small rooms can only handle so much volume before becoming overloaded, but 88 dB doesn’t really come that close to presenting the dynamic range of so much music. With appropriate amplification the 3.5’s are capable of presenting a much better presentation of this musical characteristic.
Thiel’s sensitivity ratings as presented, and as independently measured are accurate, but perhaps misleading/confusing. If one takes the actual impedance into consideration, the sensitivity decreases about 3 dB with each halving of impedance below 8 Ohms.

I have used a 31 ch. Equalizer, dbx1231, and been able to make some room corrections, of course within reason. These EQ have a balanced out, is that what you are wondering about using 2 EQ? By the way, in my experience, the mid range or higher did not suffer from using an under powered amp, at moderate loudness. 88 dB at 2 watts is plenty for a small room listening to instrumental music.

As Oblgny has already suggested the 3.5’s work best with the 12 dB boost compensating for the natural (and superior) sealed box roll off. Allowing the speakers bass extension that only much bigger and more expensive speakers are capable of. Though perhaps without the ultimate loudness those bigger, more expensive speakers can provide. Yes, the 3.5’s don’t dig below 4 Ohms, and the impedance actually rises at the lower frequency range, which should offset to some degree that rather large 12dB drain on the amplification. Still 12 dB is considerable draw. With their shallow cross-overs, under  powering this range can suck power further up into the critical mid range and even beyond. Enough power is required not only for ultimate loudness but for overall linearity and coherence. 

I wonder if anyone has tried the eq options on the full core Roon platform? This might be a modern inexpensive (free?) option/upgrade to the OEM eq? It would at the very least now offer balanced connection options. Furthermore, the full core Roon platform also offers room correction, which might alllow the bass boost to be customized to one’s room rather than to a theortical anechoic model. Such room correction could even offer consideration of different room placement. As in the customary positionig the room correction could negatively effect the all important direct sound to correct the reflected sound. But....if the speakers were placed directly against the back wall, the correction would be more uniform, and proved natural bass boost requiring less amplification demands.

Of course for the pure analog crowd this might be an anathema. I am still wondering how viable it would be to convert 2 single ended stereo OEM eq’s to mono balanced units particularly for those with digital phobias.

tomthiel
Thank You for sharing a bit of history with us today. Agreed, there is nothing finer than a sweet pair of loudspeakers set- up properly for audition.
Happy Listening!

Oops, the place was correct, so year must have been 1982 and the model must have been the CS3. Who knows where the memories go?  The 3.5 was a major advancement; the amp arrangement would apply, and the results so much better.

Long ago and far away, I once heard a pair of 3.5s that took my breath away. The owner had set them up in a very nice room, constructed of plaster on structural brick with 2: 6' pocket doors and openable windows on one side. So, the room was effectively non-resonant and adjustable.
The speakers flanked the fireplace, creating a varied reflective surface. 12' ceiling height. Magnificent.

That pair had dual inputs; I don't remember whether that was standard or a modification. The amps were Phase Linear 400s, top notch in 1980. Each amp drove one speaker, with one channel driving the bass and the other the mid-highs. Same amps, same cables on all 4 circuits. Equalizer affecting only the woofers.

What a trip.  

Hope you guys in the Carolinas are safe and seeking shelter from Hurricane Florence.

oblgny
You are the 3.5 resident expert. Thank You for chiming in my Brother.Not only did you own the (3) pairs, you had a plethora of gear constructed for each pair that offered a unique aural experience.  I can hardly await to read about your next Thiel loudspeaker acquisition.

Happy Listening!

The 3.5 is a remarkably good speaker. I’ve had 3 pairs paired to amps that were capable of 300 watts into a 4,ohm load.  I never came remotely close to that.  

The bas eq is indeed a must for making them sound as Thiel intended.  Though I’ve never blown a speaker in my life the 3.5 mids do not suffer abuse well. If you can make sure they’re working prior to purchase - the repair/investment is about $300 apiece if they aren’t. 

And worth every penny.  I had a pair repaired by Rob a few years ago. 

I used a Bryston 4B with mine. No distortion at louder levels.

With a  room that size, the 1.5's will be too small. You're not going to fill the room sufficiently. The 3.5's requires an amp with LOTS of current and the ability to drive a 4 ohm load with ease. As long as you have that, it'll be very rewarding. And of course make sure you get the bass equalizer, an absolute necessity with the 3.5's

The one series is made for small spaces, moving a fraction of the air.
Woofer areas are approximately 1: 10", 2: 50", 3: 75".

Thank You -guys for chiming in here.  Happy Listening!

If you like deep bass, can be happy with moderate loudness, and don't want to worry about having a high power amp, the 3.5 Will Serve you well. Replacing the thiel equalizer  with a 31 1/3 Oct. With a dbx 1231 or a Rane mx60 is a good option.

If you choose the 3.5s, be sure to get the equalizer

michaeljbrown
Good to see you.  There are several 3.5 experts here, hopefully they will chime-in to answer your query.  One or two still may own the 1.5 as well.
Happy Listening!

Thank You - audiojan
Happy Listening!

I’m looking at a pair of  Thiel 1.5‘s vs. a pair of 3.5’s for the same money.. I can pick up the 3.5’s in Houston, which ain’t close, as this is Texas. the smaller guys have to be shipped. 
Room is Trapezoid shaped with speakers at 8’ wall facing a 20’ back wall, 15’ wide, about 12 ‘ to the listening position, room is 20’ long. Have not heard either one, but have owned a number of Thiels.
Which one should I get? Haven’t heard either one. I know the 1.5’s are smaller. I’ve had all the 2’s and the 5 & 6.

I’m setting up my 2.4’s with a SS2 and an Integrator. Ill post my impressions once it’s up and running

sandy - I went through this exercise as I acquired a single sub and added another. In order to get true stereo bass information, you need 2 crossovers, since each is receiving signal from its prospective channel and outputting to its respective subwoofer. There are other ways to get summed mono bass with 1 XO which I have not investigated. Stereo bass through the SS2s is quite believable / satisfying.

Tech question about the SS2.2.........
 I have the sub with the P05X crossover for my CS3.7’s.  Thinking of buying another SS2/3 sub . Do I need another calibrated crossover for the second sub or is the daisy chain XLR the correct connection.  I know R/L won’t be perfect, but does that chain work.

tomthiel-
Thank You for the update. Keep working your  magic my Audiophile friend.
Happy Listening!

beetlemania
Much Thanks! for chiming in and providing us w/ an update.
Happy Listening!

@thosb only on reputation, i would rank them BAT>Classe>>>Sunfire. Good luck

@tomthiel looking forward to pressing my Multicap bypasses into service :)

All - I just picked up a pair of 3.6s from a lurker on this forum. Come winter I plan to be in full XO mode. PP> 2 2> 2.4> 3.6. Plenty of parts on hand. Slow start, other projects.

Good to see you- tomthiel

Hope you are well and enjoying the soon to be Fall season.

Happy Listening!

oblgny

Good to see you my Brother. I was hoping that you would shed a little B.A.T, light on this subject.  Happy Listening!

The answer is B. A. T. 

I had a 300 Watt model (4ohm load) - very close to the sonics of a Pass Labs only just a smidgen less “bright.”   When I played my 3.6’s louder than usual - which made them show extraordinarily well - the B. A. T.  was up to the task.  More money but worth it. 

I also eagerly await first-hand commentary.

Happy Friday -All.

thosb

Good to see you. I have not had an audition with the B.A.T. nor Classe'
CA301.  Maybe those experts will chime in for you soon.


Happy Listening!

Wow, this is a long silence, did I say something wrong?

Time for decisions to be made - currently on the secondary market these three ss amps are for sale: BAT VK-500 w/ BAT PAC; Classe CA 301; and Sunfire 300.  All seem capable of driving my CS 2.3s.  Cost of the Sunfire is about half as much as the others.  Reviews of the BAT make it sound like it could be the last amp I will ever need (LOL, right!) and unless I am mistaken these don't come up for sale very often.  I love the sound of tubes, which do you think is my best choice?