Thiel Owners

Ken - my answer to your PM bounced. I give them a high likelihood of success.

I currently have two Classe Audio DR-8 amps running in mono mode.  They have 280 watts into 8ohms and 560 watts into 4 ohms.  In addition, they are high current amps.  Currently have a pair of Thiel CS2 speakers, but I am adding a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 speakers I just purchased.  Will my DR-8 amps have enough power to properly power the Thiel 3.6 speakers?  On occasion I do like to play the music load so I want to make sure I have enough power.  

Tom, 
I'm an ancient electrical engineer and pre WWII ham radio type who cut his teeth on Heath kits, with  JBL, Altec Lansing and Tannoy speakers (building my own cabinets.) 
I can still learn something every day, and you really contribute to the knowledge base of this forum. 
George

Hi tomthiel,

Yes, quite a few well regarded speakers over the years/decades have used/still use second order crossovers to the woofer. Given the nominal 180 degree phase delay, the most satisfactory results are generally gotten by inverting the relative phase of the wires to the woofer. This works well for some frequencies away from the fc but not so good for time alignment in the vicinity of fc. Here (with time shifts available) I’ve stood that on its head a bit by not inverting and delaying to seek best phase blending at fc.

I may be telling you a bit more than I know for sure, partly as discussion stimulation. (smile) It has been a few years since I looked more carefully at it. I just reviewed some old modeling spreadsheet work where I was showing myself that if I differently pro-rated or scaled the importance of the time alignment at frequencies stepping away from fc in half octave jumps, some of those schemes would start to suggest I might be better off with something headed toward an additional 35 degrees or so of phase shift. I thought that result was pretty small for how highly speculative I was being… and decided not to pursue it even as a listening experiment.

The overview message is still that, if one is willing to go there, DSP devices give us some greater freedoms to customize that integration than we’ve had in the world of analog crossovers.

Yours, John

@tomthiel, not at all! This is what makes this forum so great, people sharing their experience and knowledge. I'm definitely leaning towards a pair of subwoofers.

Jan - I hope I am not dominating this forum, but I enjoy sharing what I've learned. I have compared single and stereo SS1 and SS2 subwoofers in my studio with PowerPoint 1.2s as room mastering monitors. The stereo pair presents a decidedly more believable image. Note that the PPs cross over at 80Hz, which includes more upper information than many applications.

John Schwenker - I am intrigued by your second-order experience. Soon I will have my Metric Halo ADA rig back up and will devise a second order XO at 80Hz for low and high pass. It has a high probability of better transient performance than the PXO solution of 4th order high and low. I will be able to measure the net output to ascertain that the subwoofer can produce that 12dB roll out. The PPs produce a textbook 12dB roll out. BTW: second order slopes share some prestigeous company.

I'm going to try to find a Thiel subwoofer, but here's the question... is it worth it to spend a bit more money and get two SS-1? Commonly I've found that stereo subs work much better for music, but Thiel is always different, so I figured I ask.

The room is not that large so I don't think I need two subs for that reason, but I also want to make sure that if I do it, I do it right.

Thanks.  Love the great knowledge on this site.

The 2.4 and 2.4SE share identical drivers and circuits. The only difference is the sophistication of the feed capacitors for the coax driver. That PXO is the one you want.

I have a question on the difference from the CS 2.4 and the CS 2.4 SE model.  I have a PX05 that lists the channels as CS3.7 for the front which I have and the surrounds as the CS2.4’s which I have a option to buy for surrounds.
Does anybody know if the SE is that different for use of my  PX05 crossover.  If so I’ll get The S1 Integrator.

vair69robert-
Thank You for the kind remarks. There is a plethora of information in this thread that is built-by-design to help Thiel owners. Reading all of the various Audio forums on a regular basis, like I do, audiophiles are enjoying both integrated and separate pre/power amps in their respective systems.When I heard one of the first outboard DAC model(s), I remarked, why would anyone want this (circa 1990's)?  Fast forward to 2018 and look at all of the DAC manufacturers.  The same argument is made of the Integrated Amp from Anthem, Ayre, Bryston, Classe' Creek, Krell, Mark Levinson and Pass Labs, just to name a few. Technology has traveled a long way. Designers and engineers have advanced right along side  the trends as well.

Happy Listening!

AudioJan 

"Basically, what would you recommend that is similar to the Thiel, but has more dynamics and a bit less sterile."

First I would read the 76 pages of this post ,
since it is was started by a post about the CS2.4SE ,
you might find what others think is the  perfect amp or you might want to upgrade the crossovers to the SE version .

I would suggest trying either a Tube pre-amp or a Tube buffer ,


Rob

I'm using a pair of Cambridge 840s.  They're a lot smaller than the CA-300.  Their combined power is probably comparable to a single CA-300.  I have my doubts about whether a pair of CA-300s would be significantly better than one.  That's 1,700 watts/channel into 4 ohms, a lot more than you can get out of the wall.  

I used to use a pair of Classe CA-200s but they both developed some intermittent crackling that the shop couldn't fix so they've sat unused for about the last 8 years.  They are very good and powerful amps but they definitely have a bit of a warm sound.  I prefer the sound of the Cambridge amps as I find them a bit more neutral.  The build quality isn't as good as it's a Chinese made, more budget conscious brand.  They've operated flawlessly for about the last eight years so I can't complain.  

@jon_5912 ,What amps are you using in bridged mono? I'm thinking of adding another Classe CA-300 and doing the same thing with my 3.7s.

Just suggesting that particular impedance issue.

@tomthiel, I've used Mark Levinson ML331's and Krell KAV250 with the Thiels before and the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks are definitely better than either of those. Especially in the bass and mid-bass. I don't think it's the amp.... I can borrow a few different amps from friends and test your theory, but I don't think that's it.

@jon_5912, the amps are mono blocks already, so I'm already there... :-)

I had a similar experience with the bass in my 3.7s sounding a bit weak.  I got out my measurement mic and real time analyzer to measure it and it measured fine on sine waves.  Still, it bothered me enough that when the store I bought the amp at was selling off their demo I bought it and ran two amps bridged mono.  The difference was pretty striking.  Even at moderate volumes the difference in definition was very noticeable.  I don't know if doubling the power supplies or capacitance or what made the difference but the improvement was big enough that I didn't second guess having spent the money.  

audiojan - nice system. I do have a reservation about the Bel Canto. The site states minimum impedance 3 ohms. Some class D amps hit a brick wall at their minimum impedance. The CS2.4 drops to 2.73 ohms at 600 Hz. I wonder if you might be running out of amp, rather than out of woofer. Might you borrow a known-to-be-bulletproof amp to see if the bass comes to life? 

The rest of the system is PS Audio DirectStream DAC, driving the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks via Cardas Cross XLR and to the Thiel CS2.4's via Cardas Cross speaker cables. Front end includes Auralic Aries SE to DS via AQ Carbon USB, PS Audio PerfectWave transport via AQ Carbon HDMI (i2s), PS Audio NuWave phono via AQ Carbon HDMI from a Clearaudio Champion.

tomthiel- the speakers are in the larger open space, not in the alcove. My office is in the alcove right off my listening room. The space they're in is about 12' wide and 16' long with acoustic panels on the long wall behind the speakers. The ceiling is tall, but since it's in the attic, it slopes from about 5' up to the peak.

I will add a subwoofer to augment the bass of the Thiel's.

jonandfamily-as above, consult Mr. Rob Gillum. Hope you guys are enjoying Summer.Happy Listening!

Welcome! audiojanas you discovered, once the CS 2.4 is dialed-in, magic happens.I look forward in reading more about your audio journey. A home's alcove can really add something special to any system. Placement is key.
Happy Listening!

jon- Rob Gillum at CoherentSource Service makes the PXO modification to match the Thiel speaker of your choice.

audiojan- your experience is classic: distance from the walls makes for better image and evenness, but those very walls were reinforcing the bass. In your situation a subwoofer makes sense . . . unless you can move the speakers out of the alcove into a more normal, rectangular space.

unsound - indeed. They are pigs to drive well. This year I have read and studied widely, and the over-arching problem of Thiel speakers is driving them. The amps referenced on this forum work and many of those are the amps Jim used in development. Krell fpb, Levinson monoblocs, big Bryston, big CJ, Classe DR. The common thread in those designs is their ability to deliver large current streams at high voltage without distress. Others here have recommended other amps, which are no doubt suitable, but I have not heard them. However, when an amp can't deliver the required current, the litany of complaints arises.

I thought about purchasing this PX02 Thiel passive XO that is made for my CS3.6 (just in case) or a CS6, but I'm so happy with my bass that I can never invision me needing a sub. Does anyone know what it would take to change this PX02 to work for a CS2.4? https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649444380-thiel-passive-crossover-px02/

In a moment of weakness I was ready to sell my Thiel CS2.4's. Long story short, I moved into a new room in house (which combines my listening room and my home office in an alcove of the room) and no matter what, I couldn't get the Thiel's to sound alive. They sound really clean and clear, but lacking "life"/"flesh & bones"/"joie de vivre".

I played around with the speaker distance, moving them further out from the front wall then I have ever had them and all of a sudden, the center locked into place and they sounded glorious. The bass is kind of missing in action though..

SOOOO.... I will add a pair of subwoofers. I'm playing around with an Epic Legend right now (which I happened to have sitting around) and although I can get it to blend reasonably well, there's times when I hear it. So what would you recommend that blends well? Unfortunately I think Thiel is out since you can't get the crossover very easily. Recommendations please! :-)

Thank You - tomthiel
Happy Listening!

kdross - congratulations on your CS2s. Thiel made more of those than any other model. It is possible that the loud levels did the damage if fed by an amp with insufficient power to deliver a clean signal. It is unlikely that the woofers or any of the drivers being old is the cause of the trouble. Those drivers have rubber surrounds and generally last indefinitely, unless fed a distorted/damaging signal.

Congratulations also on your Classé amps. Your DRs were designed by Classe's founder David Reich who took current delivery very seriously. David moved on to McCormack and Theta Digital. Very good amps, a great match for CS2s.

The fact that your woofers quit (see below) and you used a low-power (?) receiver at loud volumes points to distortion causing the failure. The old Sony played loud is the probable culprit. (Wires are probably not the cause.)

 But there are other possible causes or needs.

One probable root of your problem: both your amps and your speakers contain electrolytic capacitors, which have a definite lifespan of 15 to 40 years. They last longer when in constant use. Polarized electrolytics, such as in your amp, lose their bias, especially when in storage. A likely cause of damage is that your caps are leaking, allowing low-frequency power into your signal path and over-powering the drivers. Tweeters and midranges are at most risk, so your woofer failure doesn't match this scenario. BUT, you could be tending a time-bomb. Inside the speakers you can look to see if any of the small, black cylindrical caps have any goo on them. If so, they are definitely failing. If not, they can possibly wait.

I recommend the following. If you like the CS2s, keep them and consult Rob Gillum about the possible need for XO cap replacement. But, you can hear any problems before they do damage. If the caps are dry, cap replacement may not be necessary.

Your amps most probably need service: including new electrolytic caps. I understand that Classe is back in business and can probably service your amps. That vintage amp in that long-term storage situation is highly likely to have bad caps. Classe can talk you through determining whether the caps are leaking (signal or goo).

In my opinion, your gear is worth salvaging and will outperform the large majority of audio gear out there. Good luck and welcome.

Hello everyone.  First time audio fan here.  

Last year I jumped into the audio world by purchasing a pair of Thiel CS2 speakers (the original CS 2).  Found them on Craigslist for $500.  I used speakers with my Sony receiver (100W) that I purchased at Best Buy for $300 until I could purchase some real equipment. 
Despite the poor equipment, the speakers sounded very good.  

Last month I purchased a Classe DR-5 pre amp and two (2) DR-8 amps.  Despite being older equipment, everything came in the original boxes, was stored in a closet for about 20 years, and looks brand new.  In mono mode, the DR-8 amps have 240 watts into 8 ohms, and 540 watts into 4 ohms.

The Classe equipment really made my speakers sing for about a day.  That is when I noticed the woofers in my Thiels making a bad vibration sound (at first I thought I blew a tweeter).  At higher levels I notice the sound was distorted and did not sound right.  I have confirmed that both woofers need to be replaced, and replacement is about $450.  

Question is did I damage the Thiels with the Classe equipment when I played it at loud volumes (my wife likes to play dance/club music loud)?  Just wondering if the speakers being so old gave up the chase, or if we sent too much power to the speakers and damaged them.  I also read online that I could have damaged the Thiels with the old Sony receiver by playing the music loud and not having enough power, which in turn damaged the speaker.  Either way I will have to replace both woofers, but I do not want to damage the speakers in the future.  I just hope the speakers will sound the same with new woofers.  Also, my speaker wire is not the best so I hope that did not cause an issue either (feel free to recommend good speaker wires).  

In addition, while I love the sound of the CS2 speakers I have, they are old and I am wondering if I should upgrade to something newer.  Was thinking of the 2.4 or the 3.6, but I did not know if my equipment would be enough power for the 3.6 speakers.  If someone could comment on this I would appreciate it.  

Thank you in advance for any suggestions and input.  
   

Silvanik 
I've been meaning to write and welcome 
a fellow McCormack amp owner and a passive pre-amp user .
You had me daydreaming about the DNA-2 , great specs ,
there was a Deluxe edition for sale on E-bay starting at $2,000 ,
buy then I saw the weight of the unit !
Ironically the Thiel thread was discussing the weight of equipment 
and the aging of the owners , daydream over .

I had just purchased a new phono pre-amp that has taken my system to a new height in listening pleasure .
( luckily because if I hadn't just spent $1,800 I might have still been daydreaming about the DNA-2 amp ) 
I went from an entry level SimAudio Moon 110LP s.s. with a regulated power supply ( big improvement over the stock wall wort ) to
and Tavish Design Asiago tube unit .
New height , width , depth , definition and BASS !
My 2.7s let me hear every improvement every detail with bass that
is so clear and low WOW , no tube roll off here or at the high end either . 

It took me over 2 years to make the decision on which one to move up to 
with  the Manley Chinook , the Decware ZP3 ,
also the Parasound JC jr  and the Sutherland Insight as the contenders .,
but the Tavish Designs with it's separate power supply and all tube MM amplification won out .

Are there any other McCormack amp Thiel speaker guys out there ?
Do any of you use a passive pre-amp ? 
I have seen many of the Thiel owners praise the power of tubes ,
do any of you have a tube phono pre-amp ?

Happy Listening All
Today is Classical Sunday 
Rob

Hi y'all,

Been enjoying semi-regular lurking on these pages.

Maybe this is plain enough and not in the scope of the discussion about other creative ways one might get or get close to good SSx time alignments. I have a pair of 3.7s mated with a pair of SS1s positioned behind each a couple of feet. I use a Behringer DCX2496 (Ric Schultz modded) as a crossover controller (ahead of power amp and SS1s) plugging into the SS1s normal inputs.

I have chosen a second order filter slope at 80 Hz. Second order as a compromise between the Thiel loved first order and thinking to get the energy to fall off a little quicker to avoid much power going to the passive radiators—maybe muddying the possibly purer SS1 lows.

I looked at the (main speakers) delay that would be by calculations appropriate for a sum of the SS1 behind positions and the delay at Xf for the second order slope. I dialed in that number and tweaked it (only a small amount needed) until the SPL response at 80 was peaked indicating good time alignment there. (and of course set the relative levels by looking at plots of low frequency sweeps)

Seems like there may be a couple of nuances to this line of thinking that I’m neglecting to recall but w/o digging back into my couple years old notes, that is the essence...

I have been pleased with the results. Bass is well integrated sounding, particularly on transients and particularly when compared with either a DCX zero delay file or the fourth order behavior of the Thiel PX05s I started with.

Cheers, John

Hey Guys, I am lurking around the forum, despite having sold all my gear, including a pair of CS6's and 2.4's, in a frenzy of "downsizing". I now maintain two houses, one in Taos, and a "garden home" in Midland, neither of which has any sounds at all.
 disper, I never found anything that would drive my CS5's; 
I am now starting over, and I might as well begin with an amp. I'll take a look at the Coda, for sure.
I will say that the best sound I ever got was my 2.4's with the fpb 300 Krell. 

Ish - Duh. I believe the SSs are all analog, so delays and so forth can't be easily implemented. For example, dsper's upper and lower mid drivers needed 3/8" and 1/2" time delay which took, if I remember correctly, more than 40 bucket brigade capacitor banks. Huge, expensive and specific to those parameters.  

Thieliste,

Try to audition a Coda CS.

Biased to class A for the first 8 watts and peak current of 100 amperes per channel. 300 WPC into 8 ohms and doubles down. 

It has no trouble driving my Thiel CS 5's that go below 2 ohms.

I am listening to "Joe Pass: Virtuoso" right now and the bass is vibrating in my body.

Ooh la la!

Dsper

ish - I am interested in your SW1. Please contact me via PM.
Regarding the boundary management software, I would only be guessing. I do know as you outline, that Jim would not have addressed the problem via EQ. I believe there are patents on what he did which you might search online and perhaps report back to us.

I share your phase control question.  I am using physical placement for an approximation of phase alignment. Someone said here that LTE can be use simultaneously with PXO to address phase. My speculation is that since the sub crossover is 4th order (high and low), and therefore adding 360° phase shift at xo, and given the very long wavelengths at those low frequencies . . . perhaps he thought plug and play was worth more than time alignment from a phase control. I don't know. Does anybody out there have any educated opinions?

Tom, I have serial No. -4 of the SW1, now in mothballs. I'll probably put it up for sale at some point. This is the prototype that Jim used to demo the SW1 at audio shows until the SS2 model was released. I bought it from a former employee (or contractor?) who did graphic arts work for Thiel. I used the SW1 with a PX05 that Rob configured for my 3.7s. It sounded great and blended seamlessly without any fiddling.

Tom, do you know how the circuitry controlled by the rear and sidewall adjustments works to counteract Speaker Boundary Interaction Response (SBIR) effects? SBIR involves cancelation between reflected waves (with negative amplitude) and direct outgoing waves at certain predictable frequencies. SBIR problems cannot be addressed with equalization, so I've always wondered how this unique Thiel technology works. The only thing I can think of would be to sum the original signal with a suitably delayed signal filtered to within a narrow band of the problem frequency.

Another question: Why didn't Jim include phase controls on the SmartSubs? Although it runs counter to the plug and play SmartSub philosophy, a phase control can be used to achieve phase alignment between subs and mains at the cross-over frequency.

I wonder if any of you have ever seen a demo with Boulder pre-power paired with Thilels ?I know Boulder gear is way too expensive for our modest Thiels but who knows.

Good to see you -thieliste
Happy Listening!

Good to see you - dhoff01
I wanted to get your impression/thought(s) on the Accuphase A-65 that is for sale here on the 'Gon.  Hope you are well and enjoying a music filled Summer.
Happy Listening!