Thiel Owners

The auction is over.  As far as I know this is the only auction of its type in the last 20 years.  The TT1 prototypes went for $3,800.  That surprises me.  The raw drivers went for really cheap.  The big Krell went for $2,700.  I thought about bidding on a couple of things but I don't need anything so I didn't.  As far as I know nobody ever found Jim Thiel's decades of notes and that's probably the biggest bummer of the whole situation.

beetlemania
Thank You for the update on your XO project. Good to read that your speakers continue to bloom since inception.

Happy Listening!

fitter468
Good to see you again.  Watch the usual on-line haunts for a pair of CS 7.2 loudspeakers. They usually come up for sale a few times each year.
Happy Listening!

yyzsantabarbara
Good to see you here. We have several Bryston fans and owners on the Panel.  Happy Listening!

@brayeagle Last time I heard Bryston was a demo Gary Dayton was giving with Vandersteen in Southern Cal.. I asked him to compare the 26 vs the 17 cubed and he said the 17 cubed was the way to go. He claimed the new electronics were much better in the 17 cubed over the older 26 (which I owned for a few years)

tom,

28Bs are one heck of a pair of monoblocs!  1000 watts into 8 ohms, and 1800 watts into 4 ohms. Inordinately low distortion .

I've noticed a change (for the better) in the power amplifiers, from 4B to 4BSST to 4BSST2 to 4B cubed.  My 4B cubed has a clarity, smoothness and bass control clearly beyond the SST2. Most noticeable in alto and soprano voices.  IMO, their 17 cubed preamp is a step up from the 26.

eagle

I drank the kool-aid too!! Back in the early
90s it’s delicious!!!! Have 3.6s which I love trying to upgrade to cs5i or 7.2s!!

Eagle - I think the Bryston speakers had been development a long time, but Gary may have been in on final tweaking. He has a good ear and did lots of listening with Jim during development over the years. BTW: Gary set Rob up with a pair of 28Bs. If they are Gen 3, I think that's Bryston's top of the line. Their amps have gotten more and more refined over the years. I'm planning to hear Rob's this summer.

Yeah, I drank the kool-aid too, and it was gooooood.

When New Thiel took the reins, Gary held out for Phase Coherence in the new products. He was over-ridden by the New Team, including Steve DeFuria and Bob Brown who had been long-term Thiel supporters and associates. They said that Gary had "drunk the kool-aid". Gary left New Thiel when Mark Mason decided to pursue Canadian-type, non-coherent designs.

I've written this before but it's a cryin' shame that New Thiel completely abandoned Jim Thiel's design principles. At that point, why even keep the name?

Meanwhile, I'm still happily drunk on the kool-aid of my upgraded 2.4s. Last night, I yet again found myself locking into the music (16/44 Mary Gauthier via Qobuz) despite having my attention elsewhere.

tom,

Did Gary have anything to do with the development of the Bryston speakers?   I wondered when I saw him in that September 2013 video, as he mentioned Jim Tanner's desire to develop a speaker line for Bryston.

 It's nice to know Gary was in on the development of the 2.7s (my primary speakers!)

BTW: My call sign, brayeagle, was meant to be grayeagle (Air Force career) but somehow was entered as brayeagle.  My son often asks me if someone in the head shed thought I was a cross between a donkey and a buzzard,. 

George

There were knowledgeable insiders and observers who collectively judged the new ownership's approach to be built on "appalling arrogance and ignorance".

In times of change, some people go where the wind blows to keep their jobs and carry on how best they might. Thiel employees were unusually principled. Most stated their principles and committments and parted ways. Rob found a way through the maze to carry on well by remaining conscientious without addressing policy. Most of the Real Deal Thiel Team evaporated before the Lexington factory went in the dumpster. None made the move to Nashville. The Thiel Audio we knew was over within the first year - 2013 - which is getting to be a long time ago.

thanks Tom.  "drank the kool-aid".   what a bunch of morons.  I am glad the Gary is doing well at Bryston as i do have good memories of him. 

Gary had been Jim's lab assistant and audiophile interface for at least a decade. He was part of Home Team Thiel for the 2.7 development. When New Thiel took the reins, Gary held out for Phase Coherence in the new products. He was over-ridden by the New Team, including Steve DeFuria and Bob Brown who had been long-term Thiel supporters and associates. They said that Gary had "drunk the kool-aid". Gary left New Thiel when Mark Mason decided to pursue Canadian-type, non-coherent designs.
Bryston and Thiel had collaborated for decades, sharing and trading equipment for the lab and for shows. Good fit for Gary.

he is a really nice guy.   used to talk with him occasionally back when he was with Thiel. 

ronkent,

Thanks! That was whoI was looking for. Shorly after leaving Thiel, he appeared in a September, 2013 video pushing the new Bryston speaker collection. He’s advanced through the Bryston system and is now the Bryston VP for US Sales.

Gary Dayton is the person i think you are talking about

If I remember correctly, a Thiel employee (engineering?) defected to Bryston following Jim's death and when the new organization began to unravel. 

Am I right or incorrect?

indeed.  i am  grateful that TT and RG are still part of the Thiel family. 

Ronkent thanks for posting that a very interesting read! Thankfully we still have Tom and rob!

ronkent

Thanks for the URL to the Copper article. Very interesting reading, and filled in quite a few  gaps.   Unfortunately, the follow-on to Jim Thiel's company was doomed from the start.   I guess failure was inevitable when bean counters and the cost-effective minions attempted to run an artistic enterprise.  The article also gave me an additional insight into Tom's place in the company. 

here is a link to the article in the newest issue of Copper magazine which is a free magazine produced by PS Audio.  Great stuff.  This article is a summary about the demise of Thiel over the past few years.  Many here already know this but it is quick review.  https://www.psaudio.com/article/thiel-the-final-chapter/

Happy Friday! All

@bighempin - was glad to see that you finally have your 3.7’s. As you may know I gave up on the pair of 3.7s that "might" come back to ATL and presently have Magnapan 20.7s that I’m extremely pleased with. I’m presently continuing to use the my 2.4’s, two pairs of power point 1.2’s and a pair of powerplanes in a video system with a 4K JVC projector. Enjoy your new speakers!

Esprit - have the 5s and 7.2s been tried in the same position in the same room with the same driving source?

Esprit4s
i am powering CS5’s with Bryston 7b monoblocks. Positively no lack of bass.
my room is not boomy.
start investigating, Tom goes right to driver testing. I would then go to placement, Tom might go to crossovers.
if you are near NJ and want a baseline to compare, come on over.

Esprit4s,
i am powering CS

Thank you Tom.  I will start there.

espirits4s - I cannot address more than the CSi, since I have no personal experience with the CS7.2 or your particular amp. But that amp doubles twice to 1400 wpc into 2 ohms, implying that it should do fine into the 1.2 ohm load at 10 hz. The 7.2 has the opposite characteristic, a rising impedance going low, so a long cable run would act differently between the 2 models. But, it seems far-fetched to me that an amp or cable interaction would be responsible for a significant bass difference. 

I have considerable experience (in the day) with the CS5 - and I wouldn't call it bass-shy with a good amp - which you have. So, I would look for a speaker problem. First-off you can test viability and polarity of all the drivers with a single 6-volt lantern battery rigged for intermittent contact to the input terminals. Plus to red should make all drivers push out - a second or two won't hurt the drivers.  A dead or reversed-polarity driver would make trouble. The lowest and upper 8" woofers are the subs which would reduce bass power without affecting tonal balance noticeably. Please report your driver test as a base-line.
Tom

good job MA.   keep us in the loop

Hey guys! I know a few of you have been wanting an update and I apologize for the delayed response. I appreciate your continued interest in this newbies journey. I apologize in advance for the long post.
The trip out to Denver was awesome. It was very rushed as I left my wife at home with 3 children the youngest of which is an 8 week old. I flew into Denver on a Sunday night with the plan being to pick up the speakers Monday morning and drive them all the way back to Alabama by Tuesday evening(I made it).

The dealer who sold me the speakers was very nice and very knowledgeable about Thiel, both their products and their story. He said he knew Jim and was very good friends with Kathy. He had some pretty cool Thiel stuff to show me including a cross section of a 2.4. I got a picture of it you can see here. http://imgur.com/hVzEC4J I don’t know how to post it in the forum. I have it as my profile picture now. I got a picture of the serial number off the cross cut 2.4 if someone is collecting 2.4 serial numbers. He also had a pair of 2.4s and 2.7s(not cross sectioned). I have those serial numbers as well.

The dealer was also a Cardas dealer and he was willing to let me take cables home to demo. What he says he typically does is he gives the customers cables to demo at home that are at a price point the customer is comfortable with, then he also adds cables that are a step above that in price so the customer can hear the difference and decide which one to get. Then the customer returns the cables he doesn’t want or returns them all. I passed on getting any cables to demo until after I have the system burned in.

The speakers made the journey across the country safely and in good condition. I am so pleased with the way they sound. Everyone told me to brace for how terrible they would sound out of the box but I thought they sounded great compared to what I’m coming from. My entire system is brand new so everything needs burning in. I have all PS Audio gear, the BHK 250 amp, BHK Signature preamp, and DSD Jr DAC. I also have a MoFi Ultradeck turntable but I am still shopping for a phono so I haven’t played with it yet. So far I have been streaming to the DSD Jr DAC using my iphone with an app called Mconnect and Qobuz. Mconnect is the interface, kind of like Roon, but it is a one time fee of $5 as opposed to Roon’s subscription service. I like Qobuz so far but Mconnect keeps crashing so it might not be a viable option.

So most importantly, how do they sound? I always get so intimidated trying to explain what I am hearing to a bunch of very experienced audiophiles and critical listeners such as yourselves so please pardon my inexperience and lack of reference. As far as the speakers, I think they sound amazing and I thought they did out of the box as well but just got better and better with each hour I put on them. I told RonKent it was like watching a flower slowly bloom. After the first 100 hours they really started to open up. The sound stage is amazing but not quite on par with what RonKent has achieved. It does seem like as more time passes the sound stage has gotten more depth and separation to it. I had more than one person tell me in a critical way that Thiel are very forward sounding and I am not getting that at all. The sound is coming from the back wall and depending on the recording the speakers do seem to almost disappear. Voices sound very natural and pleasing to me. I do feel like there is something off that I can’t put my finger on, I think it may be that the bass is a little muddy or just not right yet but I don’t know. Shortly after I got the speakers home I had surgery, because of this I have not been able to move the speakers or play with speaker placement at all but I plan to start playing around with them this week and see what differences I can hear. I have 350 hours on the system as of now.

Also of importance, my wife approves which was really the big test for me. She told me she was happy to have music in the house again, which was her way of saying it was worth the trouble. She really likes them and we have fun switching seats and taking turns in the sweet spot. My family was busting my chops about the speakers recently and the fact that I would drive that far for them and my wife’s response was "I would totally be rolling my eyes too if they didn’t sound as good as they do". So I guess I win? ;)

Lastly, I know this is a Thiel thread but I wanted to put a quick plug out for MoFi as I feel they went above and beyond in providing me with customer service in a situation where most companies would simply have shrugged and done nothing. Long story short I found that my brand new MoFi Ultradeck was damaged in shipping, but I did not fully unbox and find the damage for a good 3-4 months after I received it. In spite of the long amount of time that passed, MoFi replaced the turntable question/hassle free. For them to do that after so much time had passed speaks volumes to me about how they treat their customers. I am impressed and relieved they were willing and able to replace my turntable. Now I just need a phono!

Thanks for reading, sorry for the long post. I tried to keep it as short as possible.

Hi Everyone,  Very much enjoying that this thread is so active. I've mentioned before that I own a pair of CS5's and CS7.2's.  The CS5's are close to mint, and the CS7.2's unfortunately have seen better days cosmetically. 
  When I originally started researching Thiel speakers, the CS5's were on my dream list.  Once I finally found a pair locally, it was a packaged deal with a pair of CS7.2's that needed work.  After sending the damaged CS7.2 woofers to Rob Gillum for complete rebuilds, the speakers sound great despite being cosmetically challenged.  At some point, I need to decide between the two speaker pairs on which to keep.  I've started A/B'ing them, and one thing that stands out is that the CS5's seem to be bass shy compared to the CS7.2's.  I am using the same amp on both (Levinson 436 monoblocks), they should have plenty of power. 
  So, my question is should this be expected, or should I be looking into the CS5's for issues?

R. I. P. Dr. John. 

My system consists of pretty old stuff. I quit upgrading when I couldn’t hear much difference anymore. Initially, I could learn to hear better so I could eventually hear improvements that I did not perceive before. But eventually, I reached the limit of what I am able to learn, so I stopped upgrading.

The music room system has a turntable, a sacd player, a tuner, and a cassette player. The TT has a Koetsu Rosewood Signature mated with a Graham Phantom (original) custom mounted on a VPI TNT HRX (the older HRX which normally came with a JMW arm). The disc player is a Sony SCD 1. The tuner is a Mac MR 78. The tape player is a Nakamichi Dragon. The preamp is a Pass X1. Interconnects are all AudioQuest AudioTruth Amazon, and speaker wires are AudioQuest AudioTruth Dragon. (I bought these when silver was still affordable.)

Everything is standard stock, unmodded, except the TT rig. I mentioned it in a post https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vpi-tnt-hrx-table-what-tonearms/post?highlight=vpi%2Btnt%2Bhr...

I described the Pass amps driving a difficult load in another post https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anybody-using-wilsons-or-soundlabs-with-pass-labs/post?highli....

I can imagine.

Bought my 3.6s new in the mid '90s.  They still sound great.

They were my main speakers till 2001, then they were rotated to another room.  In 2015, I moved and stored them in their boxes.  I hope the low usage contributes to longer life.  I recently moved again, and they are now set up in a music room separate from my AV room.

They are fed by a pair of Pass X600s which seem to handle the 3.6s' impedance and phase challenges well.  This rig is particularly revealing for live jazz recordings -- puts me right in there.

Happy Friday! All

Second Note;I would not rule out the CS 1.6 nor CS 1.7 loudspeaker should a pair become available.  Happy Listening!

cabinlife
Right On! I read that article as well. The CS 1.5 does show up often here as well as eBay and U.S. AudioMart.  Happy Listening!

Jafant, thanks for your help. I found a article in soundstage August 1999 about Thiel 1.5 running on a  Jolida sj202a. A older version of my amp. Said it did a fine job. I will just keep my eye out for some 1.5 some will pop up. If anyone has that amp and have different speakers please let me know. Thanks 

cabinlife
My pleasure assisting you. JM Labs/Focal are fine speakers indeed.
If you enjoy the house sound, seek out a pair of 928 or 936 models.Those are classic loudspeakers.

Can you audition the Jolida and CS 1.5 prior to purchase?Happy Listening!

Cabinlife, the 1.5 has good mid and high but the lower range would benefit from a pair of subwoofers. Well suited for smaller spaces.