Many thanks to all on this site, especially Unsound. The insights and experiences posted here led me to purchase a pair of 3.5's. I very briefly considered Maggies, but I have enjoyed my 2.2's so much since 1992 that I had no choice but to move up the Thiel chain. WOW! Even with my ss integrated amp which only delivers 80 watts into 4 ohms I am blown away. I didn't think they were going to sound that much better or present such a holographic image. Nirvana! |
I'm honored to be asked for my thoughts, especially from the master artisan and craftsman himself and the very knowledgeable Jafant, but I'm afraid the tech eludes me and I know nothing other than what I hear and feel. It explains why I'm still running them on an underpowered integrated. I knew I had to get my 2.2s when I got chills listening to exerpts of each of 3 pieces of music I knew very well, 1 rock, 1 classical, 1 jazz. Same for the 3.5's. The music made not just an artistic impression, but a much rarer visceral emotional one also through the Thiels. The music spoke to my soul, which is what Jim Thiel was likely hoping to accomplish for himself with his ultimate God speaker. Neither of mine will ever be sold, but one day they will find their way to my kids.
Although I never play that loud, my wife begs to differ but our musical tastes rarely intersect, rarely a max of 85 db at peak, the 2.2s needed to be played fairly loud to realize the bass and soundstage, either because of lower sensitivity or lower resistance levels or weak integrated. In addition, the tone and separation are not as sweet, 3D, or separated.
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It may help to know my gear, but … if I haven't given you a chuckle yet one will surely follow soon, unless I get kicked off Audiogon first.
Just added 3.5s
1992
1. 2.2s
2. Linn Intek integrated
3. Linn Mimik CD player
4. Magnum Dynalab FT 11 tuner
Late 1980's Sony CDP C67 ES
1980 Dokoder R2R, discarded late 1998 or so
Circa 1973
1. Dual 1228 turntable with Pickering V15/1200 cartridge, recently refurbished after lying dormant for 15 years
2. Kenwood 5400 receiver, now idle since the DCM Time Window 1a speakers a friend gave me years ago had a driver go out, the impetus to get the 3.5s although the Kenwood can't run either Thiel
3. Cerwin Vega speakers, ? model #, driver gave out in 1992, hence the upgrade then
Christmas 1967
A transistor radio from my uncle started this interest in audio equipment to listen to music, with the Beatles Hello Goodbye clip on the Ed Sullivan Show a month prior really shifting my musical journey which started with Sgt. Pepper's into high gear.
My musical choices have also developed some over the years, although they still tend to be more instrumental, improvisational, and even more eclectic now.
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Continued,
The 3.5s immediately revealed themselves. Obviously they played louder and deeper, I use the EQ. They are not as position dependent, and I'm somewhat limited in placing them, so it will never be ideal. But positioned where the 2.2s were I was center orchestra at Carnegie Hall with the 3.5s, with the 2.2s I was rear balcony. 3.5 - much wider and deeper soundstage, deep bass rising up from the earth, tympani reverb palpable. Nonsibilant crystal clear highs, the notes of the triangles sparkling and shimmering. Every instrument where it should be and its sound coming at you and expanding like a cone as it should. The flow of the rhythm comes at you like the waves of the ocean. The notes fading into the absolute void of space, utter darkness. Tones as sweet as Jerry Garcias notes, real organic maple syrup, not sterile sugar or sickly sweet saccharine. The Beatles Let it Be was like hearing it for the first time again, and I was a fan ever since Sgt. Pepper and Magical Mystery. The voices on Beethoven's 9th and Mahler's 2nd are ethereal, sublime and poetic.
I still love the 2.2s, but with my integrated they have a little less of all the above, especially imaging and sweetness. They are still wonderful, but less vivid, color rather than technicolor, cotton rather than silk. It almost seems that you have to invest more of yourself to get the emotional connection to the music while the 3.5s offer it up immediately if you are open for it. Perhaps the 2.2 is more technically proficient or analytical and the 3.5 more visceral or impressionistic. As I said when I started, it is the way I experience the music that I can share, the technical aspects I know nothing about other than what I learned from you here, and for that I am very grateful. For me the gear is a means to the end - MUSIC!
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Jafant
Yes, it is a great ride, with the music making an ever greater impact as the gear reveals more. Words can only approximate what the music offers, just as they fall short of describing the smell of freshly cut grass or the feel of a loved one's touch.
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Tom Thiel
I will definitely let you know if I can hear them through an appropriate amp. I've just recently started reaching out to the community, but have been reading the posts for close to a year now. I've never been to any events and none of my friends have the bug, so it may be a while.
I'm thrilled that you are continuing to pursue and offer your special talents, both in gear and instruments, to the rest of us. Keep the faith!
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Thank you. I think doing this stepwise does make the most sense for me. Getting an appropriate high current ss amp first with using the preamp of my Linn would buy me time. I've read that the preamp is better than the amp section on my Linn, so it should be fine for a while. I wouldn't go with Linn again, although it has been trouble free, I'd much rather follow the suggestions found on this forum when the time is right. Your knowledge and experience led me to the 3.5s and I'm thrilled with them, so why mess with success? I really do appreciate all the suggestions and advice offered here. I'm not one to cycle through gear, so I'm fine with waiting for the right amp. |
Arvincastro
I had the exact same impressions of hearing the high res remastered, but non- MQA, Beatles Sgt. Pepper as you did - it offered so much new terrain. The remastered White album even more so, with the Esher sessions and outtakes really allowing me to understand and feel the music and creative process nearly as well as Sgt. Pepper. I'm hoping Giles Martin continues his magic and remasters Magical Mystery Tour, Abbey Road, Let It Be, Revolver and Rubber Soul.
I have only listened to the 2 remastered Beatles albums through my 2.2s and in the 3.5s without the equalizer. I have the EQ in one of the 2 tape inputs of my integrated amp but I'm leery of connecting my DAP into the other tape input with the EQ in place. Can I safely do that? Before the 3.5s that's how I connected the DAP, but even using the line out the volume was so low I really had to crank the integrated up. If I can't use the second tape input I'll just disconnect the EQ when I want to listen to music on the DAP.
Regarding the midranges, how careful do I have to be with the volume, especially with the EQ? I certainly don't want to blow them, and although I rarely listen with peaks over 80 db, never over 85 yet, the bass on some operas, Mahler Symphonies, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (my eternal gratitude to former NYP pianist Paul Jacobs for this, my college intro to western music professor) and Japanese taiko drums can be thunderous. It doesn't help that the integrated only has 80 wpc into 4 ohms. I hope to be able to address that in the not too, too distant future. The guidance as to what to consider offered here has been, and continues to be, very helpful. Thank you all.
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Unsound
Thank you. Now that I have a better feel for what the 3.5s can do (I am absolutely thrilled) even when underpowered, I'll back off to the 40 hz and play them with an even lighter touch, especially on the bass heavy stuff. I will admit that without the EQ at first I wasn't quite as gentle, but still not at all heavy handed - Jack Bruce, tympani, and the rumble of Mahler and Wagner were still phenomenal. I'd rather not deal with disconnecting everything to take the integrated to a dealer, I'll just disconnect the EQ when I want to play bass heavy music at lower levels or connect the DAP. Still have LPs I haven't played in eons. Everything just sounds so wonderful and musical on the 3.5s, except of course for poor recordings. The 3.5s have spoiled listening to them for me, Disraeli Gears import LP, you know who you are. |
Tmsrdg
Paul Jacobs was an amazing teacher at Brooklyn College as well. After the first few classes I made sure to sit in the first row on the left so i could watch his hands glide across the keyboard and also really focus on the music. Knowing really nothing about music and only listening to rock I wanted to expand my horizons after hearing ELP'sversion of Fanfare for the Common Man and the classical influences of the Beatles. He concentrated on 6 composers of different genres. Bach's Cello Concertos, a late Haydn symphony, Debussey's La Mer, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Schoenberg and Bela Bartok. His anecdotes also offered great insights into the process of creating music and the lives of these composers, especially Stravinsky He really was a genius to be able to instill a lifelong love of classical music and teach someone with no prior musical education so much. His untimely death was a great loss.
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Jafant
To quote Radar O'Reilly of MASH, "Ahh, Bach". I can add "Ahh, Clapton", but little else here other than questions. However, I am still reading and following this wonderful and informative thread nearly daily. I can't not, too much to learn here.
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Interesting that I never used Clapton or any of the other guitar gods to audition Thiels, even though most of the rock I listen to is from them. For my 2.2s in the shop it was Keith Jarret's solo piano improvisations 'Kőln Concert' for emotion, Grateful Dead's 'Blues for Allah' opening 2 songs for timbre and layering and Karajan's Mahler Symphony #5 for clarity, soundstage, positioning and dynamics. For the 3.5s recently the list was longer, but thankfully the seller also enjoyed my selections. The last was replaced by Bernstein's Mahler #9, and added were Solti's Wagner 'Die Walkűre' disc 3 for bass rumble and vocal clarity, highs and lows and finally John Coltrane 'A Love Supreme' for palpability and shape for lack of a better description. Needless to say the 3.5s nailed them all, aural nirvana and an emotional connection with each. Obviously I left with the 3.5s!
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With the wealth of knowledge, experience and appreciation of the experience of music on this site, especially Unsound, of course Tom Thiel and many others, I am well on my way to an upgraded system with the relatively recent addition of 3.5s to my 2.2s. For serious listening beginning last month I can now alternate them on my new vintage B & K m200s with 400w/4 ohms, but still need to use my old integrated (80w/4 ohms) as a pre for now.
They are in different similarly sized rooms with different orientations, each opening to another room and likely a 2 or 4 AWG discrepancy in speaker cables and several feet of length per pair, so any comparisons between the 2 must only be taken as preliminary observations. The additional power really made the 2.2s shine in every way possible, not news to (almost) everyone on this site. My long held view that they were a very slight bit bass shy unless played loud was completely wrong, absolutely present for the mid bass with the 400w, somewhat more than the 3.5s even, but not quite as well defined. What was missing was the sub bass that one feels with the 3.5s. Outside of the higher frequencies, the 3.5s have a bit more of almost everything, especially soundstage and depth, and are easier to drive.
Love them both, they are more alike than not, and could never part with either because each gives a slightly different experience of the music, but I do listen to the 3.5s more. With their present configurations one could almost make the overgeneralization that the 3.5s lean a slight bit more to the analytical side while the 2.2s to the more impressionistic, but that would likely be modified and refined if all other things were equal.
As many others have said, each step up unfolds new insights and enjoyment. Funny how the more I learn the less I know, but I am enjoying the process tremendously. |
