The ML 27.5 should be capable of driving the 3.7's successfully if not played too loudly in too large a room. More power could be beneficial.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
14,030 responses Add your response
There is a real limitation to dynamics in first order filters. On the one hand, there is no time smear or phase rotation in the crossover range for very realistic immediacy, but on the other hand, the drivers, especially the tweeter, do more work, generate more heat, and experience anomalies coupling to the air beyond their 'natural range'. Thiels are actually small-signal machines which do pretty well in normal rooms at normal volumes. But they are not and were not intended to be screamers.In interesting with respect to two different design philosophies. After a short exchange with the designer of the "Infinite Slope" of Joseph Audio in another thread, which optimized for frequency domain whereas time-phase optimized for time domain, and "Prof" has listened to both Thiel and Joseph Audio, and he said he like them both. I personally think there is a unique sound with first order that cannot be found in the higher order design. Maybe "Prof" can further describe if there is any intrinsic difference between these two type of speakers. |
Figured that was the reason for you asking. In my old house, before I had 3.7s, I had Thiel 7.2s. The room was huge. It was about 16x20 with a 19 foot ceiling that opened into other spaces. Easily the equivalent of over 7,000 cubic feet. The 7.2s were rated at 86db (tested by one magazine I believe at 85.5) and the 3.7s at 90 (tested by one magazine at 90.7). At one point I was driving the 7.2s with a Bryston 4BST and it was more than once where the amp went into momentary (literally a second) clipping (I have an integrated AV system so used it for both movies and music). When I went to the Proceed HPA amp, it had plenty of juice to drive the 7,2s, which, are noted, were a much more difficult load than the 3.7s (subsequent to that I got a 15 amp version of a Bryston 14BSST to drive the 7.2s, which it could not and I ended up with 3.7s, which the 14BSST handled better as far as the impedance but not as well as a Modwright KWA150SE). It's not your place with the potential buyer, but, with the changes in ownership over time with Madrigal Labs/Levinson some of the older amplifiers may not be supported by the factory for repairs. I would think unless the person has a huge room and plays them insanely loud, it would not be a problem with the 3.7s. |
Not seen a Levinson 27.5 in recent times but can tell you I help deliver many moons ago Levinson amps with Thiels. Should have no trouble driving them. If one is in a large room and listens very loudly that is not to say that something that delivers more power can be more appropriate for them (but don't be fooled by the conservative power ratings. Old Levinson 33Hs (helped deliver a pair of those - came with a free hernia - 220 lbs. each shipped with the crate), could drive just about anything (at least what I've seen and they didn't have excessive power ratings vs. many other things - very conservative). With my old Thiel 7.2s (which are a harder load that the 3.7s), I did own Proceed amps (which were basically Levinson budget amps). and they drove them no problem. |
There is a real limitation to dynamics in first order filters. On the one hand, there is no time smear or phase rotation in the crossover range for very realistic immediacy, but on the other hand, the drivers, especially the tweeter, do more work, generate more heat, and experience anomalies coupling to the air beyond their 'natural range'. Thiels are actually small-signal machines which do pretty well in normal rooms at normal volumes. But they are not and were not intended to be screamers. You are on to something. I always notice more edge on higher order filters, which can be perceived as greater snap and slam. We had a drum kit and xylophone in the listening room at the original farm house. I vote that the first order filters sound much more like real drums and percussion. That direct comparison helped form our decision to go first order. |
Note that the 1.5 drivers were entirely developed by Thiel in-houseOK, I see. I just thought they did look similar to some of the Vifa drivers. I have an eccentric theory about why phase-coherent x time coincident speakers are "harder" to driveI also notice that if I disconnect the tweeter, the sound becomes subjective less "dynamic". I also notice that higher order filter speakers do have more perceived "slam" vs. first order filter speakers as if the drums become more "dynamic". It may have to do with how high frequency affects our listening. But then beyond this, I am just guessing ... |
Andy - a couple of points in a very complicated maze. Choice of impedance indirectly includes slopes because slow slopes require less moving mass to avoid self-attenuation on the treble roll-out, and lower inductance for the same reason, and therefore fewer coil winds. Note that the 1.5 drivers were entirely developed by Thiel in-house; they include under-hung coils, copper shunts, focusing pole and plate geometries, etc. Thiel had a complete driver development lab that was fairly robust by the late 1980s. We developed our drivers and turned the designs over to Vifa for production engineering and supply. We were too small to "own" those designs, so we allowed Vifa to put them in their catalog to recoup their tooling expenses. So, they could be considered "off the shelf", but they got on the shelf by our putting them there. I have an eccentric theory about why phase-coherent x time coincident speakers are "harder" to drive. I believe that coherence allows our auditory perception to be accepted as "real" and not "reporduced". We take that "real" input much more seriously, and many aspects become sonically important, whereas they were not even heard in the incoherent speaker. I have previously described how I came to form this theory - it is an important leg of my sonic understanding stool. That phase-related amp misbehavior from the amp driving the Thiel low impedance load is obvious, but if driving a high-order low impedance load, I believe it might not be obvious. |
With respect to "ease of drive", I looked at the CS1.5 which I believe do not use "Thiel designed" drivers but more or less "off the shelf". Based on Stereophile measurements, the impedance minimum is about ~3.7 Ohm at around 200Hz. Based on that, I assume the drivers used in the CS1.5 are 4 Ohm design. The overall impedance of the CS1.5 is not that different from most 4Ohm speakers using conventional design approach. For comparison, I ran a quick simulation on my time-phase coherent design, all using 4Ohm drivers: 1. For a 2-way design, minimum impedance is 3.6 Ohm at also 200Hz. 2. For a 3-way design, minimum impedance is 3.3 Ohm at around 160Hz. But using a more conventional NON time phase coherent methods, the impedance is about the same, therefore my guess is time-phase coherent is not the real reason for being "difficult to drive". |
As for some of the comments with regard to tubes driving Thiel speakers, well I have a pair of Cary Six Pacs Monoblocks rated at 50W in triode mode. I tried them to drive the CS2.4, but they just do no have any dynamic and the music lacked any life and vitality. My conclusion is that the Six Pacs do not have enough power to match well with the CS2.4. On a larger issue, I am not sure why Thiel in general are a bit difficult to drive. In my experience, time-phase coherent speaker designs tend to be a bit less efficient than other more conventional designs but it shouldn't be difficult to drive. Is it because the Thiel driver themselves have very low impedance? I myself designed a few time-phase coherent speakers (which I hope to share soon), but the impedance curve or the overall efficiency are not that different if I were the do the same but with using more conventional approach. I supposed it's not because of time-phase coherent but something more intrinsic to Thiel specific driver specs. |
bighempin 2nd Note- while you were pulling vinyl, I did peruse the tweeter in question. At no time during out session did I detect any abnormal frequency response(s) nor degradation in sound quality via DAC, turntable (TT). I venture to report that it is operational from a performance stand. Cosmetically, it could be viewed otherwise. The dent is not overt, in appearance, to my eyes. Happy Listening! |
bighempin Thank You for the day of listening to your system. Weather-wise, cool and damp outside, it was the perfect time to enjoy fellowship, music and talking Audio shop. This was my first audition of PS Audio gear and can honestly report that it is a sonic match for Thiel loudspeakers. Plenty of detail, dynamics and speed via tubes, was appreciated. Happy Listening! |
thielliste, Yeah, the Thiels seem to perform well with tubes IMO. As to SS, from my experience I can only say that 250W of Bryston power drove some Thiel CS6s that I had very easily. The 3.7s should be even easier to drive. If one has a really big room and listens really loud, that could change. But then, moving between 250 W to 300, or even 140w to 300, is a very modest increase in actual available loudness potential. |
bighempin, Sounds fun. But who is "JA?" Also, about the tweeter, from my experience having had dented tweeters before and talking to manufacturers about it, a dented tweeter doesn't necessarily result in audible problems in sound quality. I've had what looked like a seriously dented tweeter, but the speaker sounded the same to me, just as good, before I fixed the dent. (And the manufacturer indicated that would likely be the case too). |
Hey Guys! I hope you are all doing well. I was just wanting to report on a really fun listening session I had yesterday. JA and I have been planning to get together for a listening session for some time now and I was so excited to have him over for a listen yesterday. I had the system up and running well before he showed up and when he got there we started out listening to the DAC. I have a PS Audio BHK 250 Amp, BHK Signature pre, and Direct Stream Jr. and we were listening to Qobuz hi res files and of course Thiel 3.7s. We listened to several tracks off of Jamie Cullum's "Twentysomething" while increasing the volume by increments of 5 every song. Then we switched to Rolling Stones "Midnight Rambler" and then James Taylor's "Gaia" before switching to the turntable. I thought the DSD Jr handled everything we listened to very well. "Twentysomething" is a Jamie Cullum album that JA turned me onto. JA uses this album as a reference album and for good reason. It is a very well produced album with an excellent jazz trio and a very tight performance. I could hear all of the instruments distinctly and clearly. There is a lot of texture on this album as well that the system put on full display. JA suggested we try out "Midnight Rambler" to see how the system handled a live rock n roll song played on electric instruments. We finished up with Gaia and both commented on the panning bass effect at the end of the song. From there we switched to the turntable and immediately started with Gaia, again, for contrast. I have a MoFi Ultradeck with master tracker cartridge and PS Audio Stellar Phono. I had previously been having issue with my turntable and it wasn't sounding as good as the DAC to me. Now that I have everything dialed in more, that is no longer the case. As expected, Gaia on vinyl sounded much better, warmer and more natural. Other artists we listened to on vinyl included Claypool Lennon Delirium "Little Fishes", Warren Zevon several tracks from "Excitable Boy", Nils Lofgrin "Keith Don't Go"(Quality Record Pressings UHQR version), Elton John "Someone Saved My Life Tonight", Chris Thile and Brad Mehldau "Scarlett Town", David Byrne several tracks from "Grown Backwards", Charles Bradley "Changes", Waylon Jennings "Omaha", Tom Waits "Take Care of All of My Children", Pink Floyd "Dark Side of The Moon"(First side), Paul Simon "I Know What I Know" and maybe some JJ Cale. We listened from 10am until almost 3pm and I could've kept pulling records. It was an awesome day and I really had a blast. As always, I learned a LOT from JA. I really appreciate you taking time on one of your days off to come hang out. Thanks JA. One thing I did forget to ask JA about after we finished listening was my dented tweeter. I am guessing I know what he is going to say but I don't want to put words in his mouth. JA- Thoughts on my dented tweeter? Should I worry about getting it repaired anytime soon? I honestly forgot to have him even look at it. Thanks for anyone who made it this far. I just wanted to share the experience with all of you. Enjoy your weekends and your systems. |
Hi guys, i finally decided to sell my CS 3.7s after 5 years of ownership because i want to purchase a much higher end set of speakers the Borresen 03s.Because of this decision i will have to lower my budget for amp-preamp and DAC therefore i'm going the integrated amp route with something like the CH Precision I1, Dartzeel CHT-8550 mkll or Vitus SIA-030.I will also not need huge amount of power like is needed for the 3.7s. |
JA - Happy listening indeed . . . and for the right client in the right environment it isn't very subtle is it? What got us involved in making speakers was stories like yours, except in our beginning times the speaker part of your experience was pretty dim. We loved hearing of young folks, usually shopping for their first 'serious' music system, not knowing much of anything and being dumbstruck that music in the home could be so good. I remember customers who started with a pair of 02s ($200?) and went way up the line over a lifetime of enjoyment. We kept an 'ego file' and some late nights when things were really hard, we would sit in the front office and pull out some love letters describing how they had found Thiel, and what joy we had brought to their lives - and that's really what kept the midnight oil burning. |
tomthiel Thank You for the kind words and recognition. I suspect like every Soul here, the enjoyment of hearing music on a better than mid-fi system is where my interest and passion resides. I lived with said mid-fi set up from 1988 to 2002. This was not a negative disposition for it left the door open to consideration of higher fidelity. I was very fortunate to lived in close proximity to New Orleans pre- Katrina. One Spring Saturday, I set my compass to visit a gentleman named Jay Valentino whom operated an Audio shop outside of New Orleans. The experience was life changing to report the least, as we spent the afternoon, auditioning many brands read about in the Audio press (I started my subscriptions to both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound magazines in Fall 1993). Jay was a gracious host and quite knowledgable in the Audio retail realm having cut his teeth working under Circuit City and Campo before venturing out on his own accord.The retail space was acoustically sound, a rare find, in so many brick-and-mortar operations. His talent for creating system synergy was on target.Refreshing. I walked away that day with a clear Path- buying into entry level high end electronics. I learned to apply readings/teachings into real-time demo sessions from 2002-2005 when Hurricane Kartrina shut his doors.Jay never really recovered his operation in the aftermath of it all.Later on in the Spring of 2011, I would be struck again by Audio lightning discovering a Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeaker - the Experience was anything except subtle. Happy Listening! |
Unsound - The wavy drivers are very exciting, and depending on how the future unfolds, I hope to work with them. Regarding the CS5s, I doubt whether I can help the low impedance, which is baked in with those drivers. A dual input option would sequester the severe bass load to the woofer amp, to free the upper amp. But as you know, that solution requires additional amp investment. What I can address is the two bucket brigade delays for the two midrange drivers which insert 36 components in series with them. That delay can be directly achieved with physical driver offset by re-working the baffle. A veil will be lifted. Given more time in 1989, that 3-D baffle was my preferred solution. As a historical note, I would have expected a CS5.2 after my departure in the mid 1990s, but that model was not further developed after the driver replacements for the CS5i. |
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@tomthiel, it appears that you’d settled on a path. That is most encouraging. The models you’d decided to start with are perhaps closest to my heart. Though I must admit that Jim’s last co-axial drivers certainly have their appeal. Do you think your updated CS 5’s with simpler crossovers will ease the amplifier burden? |
Oblgny - thank you for your thoughts and perspective. The input from you and this group serves as primary guidance along my foggy path. I know that I want to stabilize the brand into the future, and that will take the form of offering owners and upgrade clients a stable service platform, which Rob is now providing, but will need more legs on its stool for ongoing viability. I know that I want to make selected models better than when new to illustrate the viability of ongoing re-development. I know that I can't accomplish everyting myself, so I hope to inspire some as yet unknown person or team to take up the torch. I began my exploration with the CS2.2s, since I had them since 1990. Then came (5!) more models to compare and contrast. Most recently the 3.5 compared to the 3.6. Obl, I think you're on to something; I feel welcome with the 3.5s. And I am on to some inspiring refinements. This early work will all apply to subsequent models. It turns out, to my surprise, that as Thiel advanced in time, its sales per model declined. The peak volumes were in my time with the CS2 and CS3.5, followed by the CS2.2 and declining thereafter. It also seems that appreciation and enthusiasm for the brand also may have peaked in the 1990s - I'm still gathering and sifting clues; I'll be visiting Rob in Lexington at the end of November for more insight and direction. The truly iconic Thiels surely include the CS2 and CS3-3.5. Their age puts them in most danger of failure and they have ready upgrade potential via multiple avenues, many of which I have been exploring in the HotRodLab. The Renaissance products will not be restorations of the original executions, but rather reimaginings of what the designs hoped to become when they grew up. Pieces of the puzzle are taking their places, thanks in great part to my interaction with this forum, both here and behind the curtain. The more recent designs will probably be addressed in historic order, or as I gather confidence and abilities. I am particularly enamored with the CS5 due to my personal history developing that product, and that it is the last of Jim's sealed bass designs, and that a reconfiguration of the baffle can eliminate over half of the series elements in the crossover and so forth. JA, I would not be taking this path without your forum. Here is where I found a focus and so many generous souls who have provided insights, guidance and products for my development work. Thank you all so much. |
@tomthiel Glad to read below that your recent re-visit to my favorite Thiel model - the CS3.5 - has been included in your upgrade paths. For me this model is the no compromise model within those I have enjoyed thus far. I always employed the bass EQ @ the 20hz setting. I am not a very technically oriented fellow to dare replacing internal organs and whatnot. The first pair of 3.5’s I had suffered a punctured midrange when I attempted to see why one was intermittent. Thanks to Rob for repairing it. The “compromise” I encountered with the CS3.6 was that I had to play the music louder than I normally do. When driven a little more than my preferred level they were excellent, pure “Thiel.” At lower volume level they weren’t as resolving. With the CS2.4 I find the soundstage to be very narrow. Again, when I play them a little above my normal level this opens up. The bass reproduction is particularly notable. The “other room” test confirms that. All of this falls under the IMHO submission. For me, the 3.5’s perform superbly at all listening levels. Yes, there are times when I am inspired by a piece of music and up the volume, but most of my listening is done at very conservative levels. It was the 3.5 model that literally stopped me in my tracks because of their articulate reproduction at a low volume level. The compromises I mention are small. I could live, and have lived with various perceived shortcomings before - on every piece of equipment I’ve owned. To find one’s optimum setup requires time, money, and opportunity. I am happy with my CS2.4’s currently, but I’d sell them in a heartbeat to get a pair of 3.5’s again. I’ll be following your progress. Thiels rule! |
For those looking for good equipment to power their Thiels speakers without robbing the bank ;-) Thorough review by Christiaan Punter regarding the following components of Audio-GD (exactly the same set I use) Audio-GD Master-1 preamplifier Audio-GD Master-3 power amplifier Audio-GD R8 ladder DAC https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/audio-gd-part1/ Conclusion I’ll be honest: I think that the R8 DAC is the star of the show, sounding very nearly as good as the Aqua Formula xHD DAC which given its low price is an amazing achievement. But don’t assume that the Master 1 preamp and Master 3 power amp are mere bystanders. This pre-power pair also offers extremely good value for money, delivering a combination of transparency, neutrality, and even-handedness that is normally impossible in this price class. I think you can easily spend double the amount and not get better sound. But the most amazing aspect of all is perhaps the further increase in performance when all the components are wired using the proprietary ACSS connections, giving the system such a leap in performance that it becomes impossible to fault, even in the company of esoteric hardware. Oh, and should you still be worried about the build quality of these products then the 10-year (!) warranty should instill confidence. |