Thiel Owners

I concur that Brystons are a good match...in general.
I am running CS5 with Brystons 7b in parralel mode.  I tried running them with 250 watt ICE power class D amps, but there was absolutely no guts or life or depth to music.  My only issue when running 7B's is that bass is a bit exaggerated, especially at the sub harmonic level. I don't think this is a result of room or treatment due to having experience with several other speakers.
Perhaps this relates to what Tom has stated earlier:
A) CS5 would have been a good candidate for bi-wiring
B) CS5i have more articulated lower and lower mids.
Question: would it be a worthwhile endeavor to search out replacement drivers to convert these to CS5i upgrade?

@thielrules, Outstanding! Bravo! I'm not sure I would have made all the same choices, but I am truly impressed. I would love to hear them!

beetlemania

Agreed- the CS 2.4SE does not benefit from toe-in. The upgraded cross-over (XO) and Outrigger decoupling makes a refined, sublime, difference.

Happy Listening!

Good to see you here: corrected.

jimihandtrix

Welcome! Good to see yo here. Standby until one of our vintage experts from the Panel addresses your query.  I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.

Happy Listening!

jimi handtrix - likelihood is very high that your tweeter is "blown". You can test it by taking it out and applying 6 volts DC via a battery. When you touch Tweeter Plus (red) to Battery Plus you should hear a small click and feel the dome against your finger move outward. If nothing happens, the tweeter has failed and we here can help you get a new one.
The woofer should move a lot at high frequencies because it rolls off at only 6dB / octave above around 3K± (guessing).

ok, as promised here is my lengthy write-up of my summer project modifying my Thiel CS3.5https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A1Hs9g2tr27cGUfzSX8IcUy3dC-TpVrk/view?usp=sharing

Hey y’all, I just picked up a pair of CS1.2’s in Berlin, Germany today! The tweeter on one of the speakers doesn’t seem to be working at all - has anyone experienced this issue before? I suppose this may be more of a general speaker question, but I thought I’d try here nonetheless. I’m assuming that either a contact on the wiring has come undone, or maybe one of the components is fried (although I had a look inside and didn’t see anything "out of the ordinary", but then again I’m no expert!). I think the tweeter itself is still fine, as the other tweeter and both woofers are still in decent condition, could be wrong though. Also, when my other speakers are hooked up (with the same cables to the same channels), there aren't any issues. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

P.S.: I just remembered that when I applied a high-pass filter, there was still a fairly large amount of higher frequencies coming through the woofer. Does anyone know the specs on the woofer (i.e. frequency range)? This just made me think it could possibly be a crossover issue.

Thank you . 
If p35 has enough power I would just stick with it . I wouldn’t want to change unless other amps make a huge difference.

McCormack is also good and in your price range. However, the power of your amp is more then adequate for your music IMHO.

Thank you @oblgny 
appreciate the recommendations of belles amplifier . I will look into it.
i want to keep the price below 1000$.
Reading through the threads the most recommended are pass and krell which are more than what I am willing to pay for.
bryston seems to be ok if I can get a 4b for my price . 
Any thoughts on the parasound a21.

Just for the hell of it...

Another good artist to throw at your system is Ani DiFranco. Living In Clip is a good live recording showcasing some pretty dramatic dynamics. Plus I dig her guitar playing like a shovel. 

newtoncr...

I heartily suggest that you seek a Belles amplifier for your 2.4’s.  If you search on the shark you’ll find a couple 150A amplifiers for sale as well as a few of his preamps.  If the amps are in good shape, and if they’re anywhere near as good as my 250i Integrated, you’ll discover something remarkably focused on the types of music you enjoy.  Those amps hover around $650 - a “Thiel-like” bargain.  


Now, why am I so smitten with Belles?


While I don’t have the ability to conduct an A/B live comparison, 20/20 hindsight and impressions that have remained with me since experiencing them whisper Pass Labs - sans the price of entry. My Belles 250i Integrated  provides me with all the clean, articulate sonics that my Pass X150.5 amplifier did - at that time for me it was a match made in heaven. 


David Belles now makes Power Modules products - they have a website. David is in his eighties and stopped making high powered amplifiers because he couldn’t move them around like he used to.  He actually answers the phone, too. 


Over the years i have bought many pre-owned speakers, amps & preamps without the benefit of a live audition.  With Thiel being the sole exclusion, most of the other hardware’s manufacturers are still in business, producing new products. Most offered some degree of assistance on their “legacy”, discontinued models. Most of the time those of us who discovered Thiel did so on the pre-owner market - which is a fairly risky way to purchase something that can be subjected to abuse. I never heard a Thiel model before I wired ‘em into my setup. I’ve never been disappointed, either. 


Belles philosophy complements Thiel’s. Articulate, uncolored, accurate. Worth your while checking it out if you’re able.  

I am looking for advice for a power amp for my cs 2.4. I recently purchased a pair of cs 2.4. I am running them through arcam amplification . The fmj c 31 preamp and p35 power amp. The power amp is rated at 100 w per channel at 8 and 150 w per channel at 4 ohms. Cables are kimber 12tc. 
I can spend 1000$ on a power amp , used. I would appreciate any suggestions or is p35 good enough to drive the 2.4.
i listen to vocal music and jazz.

thank you in advance .

the CS 2.4 . . . benefits from a small degree of toe-in, IMO

I think mine sound best with no toe-in. I have ‘em 7’-10” apart, so maybe closer than your configuration?

Btw, what amp are you using?

I owned 2.3s in the past and help deliver a bunch of 2.4s (and 2.3s) when a friend worked at a local audio store many moons ago.  Vocals on the 2.4s are a bit more relaxed and open.  The 2.4s also felt to me a bit more dynamic in the bass region.

Oblgny - thanks for the comparisons.  The 2.3s and 2.4s look so similar on paper i have always wondered what the sonic difference is.   And thanks all for the music you enjoy using to evaluate SQ.  

Two of my favorite albums for testing gear are Chucho Valdes - Solo Piano for rapid transients and Keith Jarrett Trio - The Cure ... especially the title track where I pay particular attention to the sound of Jack DeJohnette's cymbal strikes and high hat work.

rwmeditz
An excellent list of musical passages for testing gear!
Happy Listening!

Interesting that I never used Clapton or any of the other guitar gods to audition Thiels, even though most of the rock I listen to is from them. For my 2.2s in the shop it was Keith Jarret's solo piano improvisations 'Kőln Concert' for emotion, Grateful Dead's 'Blues for Allah' opening 2 songs for timbre and layering and Karajan's Mahler Symphony #5 for clarity, soundstage, positioning and dynamics. For the 3.5s recently the list was longer, but thankfully the seller also enjoyed my selections. The last was replaced by Bernstein's Mahler #9, and added were Solti's Wagner 'Die Walkűre' disc 3 for bass rumble and vocal clarity, highs and lows and finally John Coltrane 'A Love Supreme' for palpability and shape for lack of a better description. Needless to say the 3.5s nailed them all, aural nirvana and an emotional connection with each. Obviously I left with the 3.5s!

not a drop of rain.  we are marked safe as they say.   thank you.

ronkent
How did you fare from the hurricane? Hope you and other NC Thiel owners are safe.

Happy Listening!

thanks for the recommendation on EC unplugged.

Happy Friday! All

thielrules
I will second Eric Clapton Unplugged for referencing and testing any system. Add Nirvana and Rod Stewart Unplugged for good measure.
Now, if we could get Don Henley Unplugged? Remarkable show that deserves to be released!

Happy Listening!

oblgny
Again, Thank You,  for your assessment and evaluation of the CS 2.4 model. Your ears are on-point!  As time marches forward, I believe that you will find the CS 2.4, beautiful and refined in its presentation. Continue to enjoy the music my Audiophile friend.
Happy Listening!

thosb...
Wow,  it's been quite the while since I've owned the 2.3's I'll do my best to lend you some idea...

When I moved up from the 2.2's to the 2.3's I perceived a richer midrange overall.  The highs were also more,  for lack of a better description,  defined.  The 2.3's also seemed to project into my listening room - my living room - further.  It was an upgrade in everything that was good with the 2.2's.

The last Thiels I owned before obtaining these 2.4's were the the 3.6's.  At that time I was enjoying a Modwright KWI200 Integrated amp,  200 watts 8 ohms,  400 watts 4 ohms - way more power than I'd ever need.  (Even though Thiels and Maggies are supposed to be "power hungry" I never had an amp or integrated that had more on tap than the Modwright did.) 


Thus far,  I am finding that these 2.4's are sonically closer to the 3.5's than they are to the 3.6's.  At modest volume level these speakers simply sing,  there's really no better description I could offer.  The 3.6's DID enjoy getting more juice tossed their way in order to open up the soundstage that these 2.4's provide in spades at  my modest levels.  I am finding that the sweet spot is tighter on these than the 2.2's, 2.3's, 3.5's & 3.6's.  Right now I'm still playing around with positioning them to obtain the best results.

What I've gotten with every Thiel model I've owned is a reminder how colored, and artificial sounding so many newly manufactured brands sound by comparison. A very valid point about Thiel is that they reveal everything they receive,  solid amplification with ample current is more important than mere watts per channel.  To my  humble ears I was most pleased with Pass Labs amps,  Balanced Audio Technology,  Modwright.  Of these three it was Pass Labs,  period.  The B.A.T. struck me as more reserved,  more conservative,  the highs didn't present as well as they did with the Pass Labs.  The Modwright was in every respect a solid performer, but again, to my ears,  it didn't match the Pass Labs in detail. 


Just before I obtained my Belles 250i integrated I was using an Audio Research DSi200 integrated - a switching amp,  or class "d."  This did not match at all well with the 2.4's.  To my ears it sounded like the amp was straining to be heard and,  true to Thiel in general,  that's what I heard.  When I obtained the Belles and wired it up the difference was immediate and palpable.  My newly acquired Thiels became Thiels again.


The ads I've been seeing for 2.3's seem to be hovering between $800 and $1100,  which is a pretty low point of entry for such a good speaker system.  They're truly remarkably refined loudspeakers.  The only other brand of loudpeaker I have such high regard for is Magnepan - and Jim Thiel once expressed his appreciation for planars himself.


One of the BIGGEST differences between the 2.4's and all the other models I've owned is where the cables get connected.  ON THE BACK!  Woohoo!  No more laying the speakers on their side to make the connections,  no more lifting 70+ pound cabinets to secure them and snaking the cable through the small tunnel.  This is ALMOST the reason to consider the 2.4's.  It also makes for swapping cables easier if you're into that. 

Solo, I have been using Eric Clapton, Unplugged lately. With amps, blind comparison is essential, letting my wife do the switching between amps, making sure the spl is equal.
I started on the write up and it will be a lengthy document to cover everything. Be patient and your help as a proof reader would be helpful.

@thielrules, I'm very interested as well!

thielrules

for a fair amount of material w/o measuring anything I am forced to agree with you.  I should be thorough in my posts as the devil is in the details!

for the most part I listen to large scale works where there are large dynamic as well as textural changes.  this is where the difference lies for me between the 3B and 7B amps

for example right now I have on the Berlioz Sym Fantastique - Solti - CSO huge dynamic contrasts and the large ensemble is used sparingly quite often

not only is there more impact and weight during the loud parts but the resolution in the softer parts is clearer while still having excellent weight

what do you use as a reference recording(s)? the Berlioz isn't a reference as much as it is what I want to listen to at the moment  

rules - I for one would be very interested in your journal.

Solobone, I tested the same combination of 3b-st against the par. 7b-st, thinking that more current would be making an audible difference. At the spl that I play my music 80dB, there was no difference and the actual difference in Max spl was maybe 3dB. The 3b-st are very capable at moderate volume and the needed power is modest, 30 watt according to my measurements is plenty.

On a different note, the 3.5 can be really enhanced with tri-amping. Spend this summer hundreds of hours measuring, listening and comparing, and can now comfortably say that the 3.5 are competing with the 3.7. Measurements indicate even better phase coherence with linear xo filters and the absence of any phase shift is remarkable in the clarity and definition of the sound and soundstage. Being able to dial in exactly the amount of Base that the speakers can handle without distortion is priceless. I hope to write up my journey and make it accessible to others.

oblgny

Members of the Panel, like yourself, really makes this thread fire on all 8 cylinders. I value input from you guys who have owned several different pairs of Thiel Audio loudspeakers. Especially, those late 80's - late 90's designs. This ownership, provides guidance, for me. Hopefully, further guidance is provided for the rest of  our contributors, members and readers. Add further input from our DIY guys and Industry Professionals and we have all of the ingredients for Achievement. Literally, there is something here for everyone. 

Good to read that you are enjoying the CS 2.4 model. It is indeed a special loudspeaker that should not be overlooked. It benefits from a small degree of toe-in, IMO. Enjoy the Music.

Happy Listening!

Hth
Thanks. I am not up and running yet due to reworking the room... also known as my office.Will start with the 8bst and then we can refine.

ovinewar

I went from a Bryston 3B ST to a pair of 7B ST's.  The difference was night and day and the 3B is no slouch.  I'm running the 7B in parallel mode driving a pair of 2.7's.

hth

I loved my Thiel CS1.2s.  Then I loved my Thiel CS1.6s.  Then I got married and, because I love my wife, I traded the CS1.6s in at Audio Consultants and bought five Thiel PowerPoint 1.2s for the home theater.  I love them.

I recently bought a new two channel system from Audio Consultants to supplement the home theater. It doesn't use Thiel speakers, but it is damn good too.

Whooops! You must have accidentally switched your auto-destruct button ON as I don’t see anybody back there, just a big puff of smoke 💨

geoffkait,

I'm still sitting on your tail in a Super Hornet, all switches "ON."

Gray Eagle

oblgny - thanks for the comparison, if you wouldn't mind, what kind of differences do you hear between the 2.3s and 2.4s?  Like you and prof have mentioned, I love the way these speakers sound from an adjacent room.  My kitchen/dining room is adjacent to the listening room, through a 3 foot door opening near the front right speaker, and I greatly enjoy listening from the next room, lots of "wow" moments there, and like some live music venues, you get pulled into the main room bc it sounds so real from next door.

Prof
I don’t want to turn this thread in to a cable debate.

>>>>That’s pretty funny! 😬 

beetlemania

Though I brought up my own disgust with the cable industry to make a point about Thiel, I don't want to turn this thread in to a cable debate, as I'm sure you don't either.  So I'll just say, that although I know your position on cables, I took your last response to say you are ok with people being scammed or "bilked" of their money.   That's the part I took issue with, not that you personally find that cables make a difference.

I'm not here to argue against your personal experience with cables in this thread.  (But even granting that cables can sound different, that doesn't of course mean that some companies aren't making b.s. claims for their products, I'm sure you'll agree).

Having begun with the CS2.2's,  then CS2.3's,  then CS3.5's,  then CS3.6's, and now with my recently acquired pair of CS2.4's I think I can offer a little healthy opinion upon what one may encounter when "moving up" the Thiel product line.  Again, I stress that all the forthcoming observations are exclusively "IMHO" based;  I don't know a mosfet from a misfit,  but I know what I like.

For the life of me I cannot recall the associated equipment I had when I acquired  the pair of CS2.2's,  but I do remember how astonished I was when I first hooked them up.  I would guess that the power source and playback equipment I had at the time was pretty modest - I joined Audiogon in 2013,  somehow stumbling upon it as I was searching for yet another piece of vintage,  circa 1970's stereo receivers.  You know,  the old Marantz, Pioneer,  Sansui two-step.

All of a sudden everything sounded better.  I was hearing things in my collection that I'd never head before.  The music sounded natural,  clean.  I didn't keep those for too long because a pair of CS2.3's appeared.  A move up the line?  If these "cheap" speakers sounded so good I imagined what stepping up a model would provide.  So I did.  And I was right.  The two models struck me as being very similar, with the advantage however small or large going to the CS2.3's.  The CS2.3's just..."rounded" things off for me,  developed a keener sense of space and depth.  It was here that I started looking into better equipment.  I was still using - *gasp!* - big box store basic cabling throughout my system.  I never truly gave the notion much thought.

Not much longer after this pair,  a pair of CS3.5's appeared on another site.  By this time I had delved into Jim Thiel's legacy as deeply as I could,  reading anything I could,  whenever I could.  I was impressed by his philosphy,  his common sense,  and the technical prowess hepossessed that all came to fore with what I was hearing.  It was very much like the first time I tasted a bonafide Chablis.  I had a bottle,  I had a rather weighty and opinionated tome to refer to as I sampled the wine for the first time.  "Wow.  I actually GET this.", I thought.  (And thus began my career in the wine biz.)

I met the gent who was selling the CS3.5's in a shopping center parking lot somewhere in lower Massachusetts.  I forked over the $850 smackeroos,  loaded the heavy speakers into my vehicle and sped home.  Literally.  I think I averaged 85 mph all the way - including my driveway.

These were noticeably heavier than the CS2.3's were.  70 pounds a piece,  but relatively shorter than the previous pairs, and substantially shorter than the pair of CS3.6's that I would obtain later on.

Now here is where my appreciation for Thiel quite literally exploded.  I wired 'em up,  tossed a disc into the player, and started back to my seating position.  (Which was then as it is now,  approximately 10-12 feet away depending on what time of year it is and what holiday/home decor is going on.)  I was literally stopped in my tracks.  A true "a-ha!" moment if ever I had one.  The CS3.5's simply opened up everything into another sonic dimension.  For one thing there was a lot more bass,  but it was natural sounding bass,  as if it it wasn't being reproduced by a loudspeaker.  It had bounce...pressure.  It "fit" is the best way I can describe it,  it didn't crowd or muffle other things.  The mids and highs were indescribably defined.  Wow.  I put on Joni Mitchells's Don Juan's Reckless Daughter and cued up "Paprika Plains," bumping the track forward by 30 second intervals until I reached the point that Weather Report brings the tune to its end.  Damn!  Even at the modest volume level I was listening at,  that truly amazing finish could be felt.

For the record here I submit that I employed the bass EQ all of the time.  Not knowing a mosfet from a misfit,  I figured that Jim Thiel designed the system with that in mind and who was I to decide against using it?  I cannot offer an opinion to how they sounded without it.

And then I got silly.  Since joining the site in 2013 I have catalogued over 100 sales and purchases combined,  and this excludes the same I have catalogued via other sites and the two bricks and mortar shops I occassion here in New York metro.  My soon to be married nephew was bequeathed that particular pair of 3.5's.  and he still has them.

The convoluted point I am trying to reach here is that the described progression up the line was organic.  Each model paid tribute to the previous model while offering superior sonics.  The 2.2 struck me as very similar to the 2.3,  but the 3.5 just upped the ante by miles.

Various pairs of relatively local CS3.6's appeared on the sites from time to time,  and I let them slip away.  Some had seen some rough service - which struck me as odd for a speaker as revered as Thiel - people usually take very good care of them,  right?  Then a pair appeared on the Saturday Audio site,  or US Audio Mart - I forget which.  $1300.  Hmmm.A fellow member here messaged me to relate that he had only just been in their store recently and saw the speakers on display.  I pounced.  $300 shipping + $1300.  The other pairs I had let slip away were right in that average.  They still appear to be in that range currently.  Also,  it was the beginning of the new year and I was flush with holiday bonuses and tax refunds.  Whee!

Man,  did the seller over-pack the shipment.  I think I was swimming in cardboard dust and styrofoam peanuts for days. (I absolutely LOATHE the styrofoam peanuts.) 


What I was expecting was that same sort of bump,  that same sort of rush I experienced with the CS3.5's.  The 3.6's are physically larger than the CS3.5's so the drivers are positioned at different heights.  Where the CS3.5's defined everything at my preferred listening level, the CS3.6's would not do so until I turned up the volume.  This is not to imply that the CS3.6 is inferior to the CS3.5,  but it is a remarkable departure from it where as the progression I described from the CS2.2 to the CS3.5 was...well,  progressive?  A little more this,  a little more that as I moved ahead.  When I played the CS3.6's at volume levels higher than usual there was absolutely no doubt it was a Thiel.

I had to sell off all of my equipment last year because 2018 was very unkind to your's truly.  In a word,  it just sucked.  I shipped off the Modwright KWI200 integrated,  the Sony HAPZ1es,  the Marantz TT-15 Turntable...but I wouldn't ship the CS3.6's.  They arrived to me in excellent condition and I wanted to make sure that their new owner would receive them in the same condition.

All of my stuff was sold off this site.  The new owner of the CS3.6's picked them up.  I actually apologized for not having an amplifier on hand so he could listen.  But the buyer knew what he was getting....

Anyway...2019 has improved enough to the point where I started regrouping the necessities of my humble life.  I stumbled upon a Belles 250i integrated amp.  Wow.  This is SUCH a Thiel champion I can't restrain myself.

The biggest difference I am finding about my newly acquired CS2.4's is that they have a much narrower sweet spot than any of the other Thiel models I've owned.  Almost Magnepan-like.  I have been playing around with positioning,  as well as with a few of the remaining cables I hadn't sold off, and all is going well.  Was it Jim Thiel who mentioned the "other room" test?I was returning from my outside deck to the kitchen one afternoon and noticed how beautiful the sound was. There,  some twenty feet away from the right speaker,  partially blocked by two walls,  I thought,  "wow." 


And that's Thiel in a nutshell.

under false pretenses

Prof, right there is where we see it differently. You seem to view high end cables as "snake oil". My position is more nuanced: yes, there are obscenely priced cables whose performance is not commensurate with price but that doesn't make it snake oil (similar examples with speakers, amps, and sources; heck, wine and watches for the matter). Again, my experience is that cables and wire *do* make audible improvements. And I have no issue whatsoever if your experience is otherwise.

FWIW, those 2.2s at TMR were mine. I sold them to the shop a few weeks ago. An excellent outfit. The 2.2s were terrific speakers but I hadn't used them since acquiring the 3.7s a few years ago. I can vouch for the 9/10 condition. We treated them VERY nicely! Of course, I'm hoping they go to a good home. But that of course is out of my hands.
Todd

For the Dutch viewers.

THIEL CS 1.6

https://link.marktplaats.nl/m1452209827

beetlemania, I’m afraid I don’t have the same cynical constitution to take the view "if someone can get away with ripping people off by taking lots of money under false pretenses...more power to them!"

I actually care when people are ripped off.

And I’m glad others have cared whether I’m being ripped off or not, as I’ve learned from them and saved money through more knowledgeable purchases. And generally speaking, I think the proliferation of b*llshit matters; it makes it all the harder to do and get what we really want, if we are constantly having to dodge rip off artists.

To each his own...

Try not to despair too much.

I, for one, couldn't care less if Obscene Audio charges $50K per foot for a USB cable. No skin of my nose! Even if I could afford it I wouldn't bother (law of diminishing returns). And if the Obscene guys bilk the 1%ers so that they can feed their families, more power to 'em!
Meanwhile, my experience is that cables and wire *do* make an audible difference. I heard really nice improvements with better speaker cables and hook-up wire. Less so but still worthwhile with interconnects but only tiny differences with power cables. To each their own.

I bought my CS2.4SEs from TMR. The cabinets were in rougher condition than they showed in the pics and description but otherwise they were good to deal with. Those 2.2 look good in the pics but hard to believe a speaker that age is really a 9/10. For starters, there appears to be a scratch on the binding post plate.