Second, visit the Grand Canyon
Seems like a long way to go to prove God exists though.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,555 responses Add your response
I've sucked out tweeters with toilet paper rolls before. I'd try that before resorting to a vacuum. My kids are 5 and 6 so for the last few years I've been trying to avoid them damaging my 3.7s. I actually built light frames around them and put them on plywood platforms on wheels. The idea was that I was going to basically Vandersteen them by wrapping the frames with some fabric mesh. I never got to that but the frames consisting of 4 vertical dowels and a rectangle frame on top did a good job of preventing kid damage. Just in the last couple of months I finally got rid of those frames. I think the basic idea is a good one for anyone wanting to make it through the little kid years without a lot of dings or worse. I'm sure you give up a little bit sonically and it doesn't look great but when you've got tiny kids those things are secondary anyway. |
Andy 2 - Beetlemania and Holco (?) both reported improvements with internal wire. I have wire from StraightWire and Cardas in my comparison kit. However, the wire itself in the 2.4s is pretty high-end. It is 5-9s, high purity, low oxygen, long crystal, high polish 18 gauge solid in teflon jackets, precision twisted at 2.5 / inch. We first developed that wire in 1978 via our access to aerospace instrumentation solutions. The ITT aerospace 6-9s wire is no longer available, but current Thiel wire is as good as is available for its type. Now, all that said, I believe there is possibly room for improvement via multi-gauge litzed bundling. Remember that a manufacturer occupying Thiel's cost-effective niche, can never afford state of the art, every decision is balanced for optimizing cost-effective balanced performance. But I will be substituting more sophisticated wire to compare its performance with stock. I should note that in the development of the original 03 in 1977, wire purity for hookup and coils was paramount to getting listenable results from the phase coherent configuration, as I have elaborated earlier in this thread. I am very tuned in to wire, wire was in my purview during Thiel's first 20 years. |
Bighempin - I have never seen that tweeter up close and personal. I believe that tweeter module comes out of the midrange mount. But that's risky business for a non-adept. I personally would try it in place. Your child's finger went in the center hole, so the failure geometry exists within that central area. |
https://imgur.com/gallery/RidPnxL Well that didn’t take long! I made the mistake of taking my grill covers off for a few hours and my 6 year old couldn’t resist the urge to touch the tweeter on one of my 3.7s while I was out of the room. She dented it pretty good. Check out the pictures. Any tips or advice? Thanks for the help. |
I think that the ongoing debate regarding cables is rendered moot when one considers what a difference an amp, or a preamp, or any piece of equipment contributes to a system's overall synergy. Thiel took me on quite an interesting journey to find the "right" amplification in order to hear them at their best. (Even though they sounded better than anything else I've heard hooked up with some old speaker wire I had lying around after I turned my Klipsch Epic 3's into CD cases.) Come to think of it, when I dismantled those Epics for the repurposing as CD cases I was surprised to discover that the internal, factory wiring was...speaker wire exactly like I used to hook them up. Go figger. After many an amp/preamp combo I finally stumbled upon Pass Labs. Boing! Kapow! All that good stuff. And I mean great stuff. My CS3.5's (at the time) became incredible loudspeakers as opposed to merely great loudspeakers. I had all my associated equipment, the amp and preamp, the cd player, the server, the turntable, maple platforms, this and that, without ever considering upgrading the speaker wire, err...cables. So I did. I have to admit that all of the aforementioned equipment IS easier to judge as to whether or not any makes a tangible difference in bettering a system. We also get to SEE all the aforementioned equipment joining the herd whereas cables disappear into the background.They don't glow, they don't have remote controls, there's no hands on finagling after we've connected 'em. BORING! So, the very last thing I started paying attention to in my system were the cables. Everything I had was still was hooked up with what the manufacturers provided in the boxes, those Best Buy rca cable interconnects, the power cords, what have you. I went around the corner to my local bricks and mortar audio shop in beautiful downtown Lake Grove, NY, and bought a bunch of Transparent Music Wave connects and speaker cables. (The only cable I could not change was on the Marantz TT-15 turntable, which was essentially a Clearaudio model with a Marantz badge slapped on it.) For some silly reason they only supplied a proprietary cable which could not swapped out. Harrrumph! I had been enjoying my system for quite a while with the ordinary cables by this point. Now, with all the new cables in place I settled back. Did I hear a palpable, tangible difference when I first hooked them up? No, I did not. But here's the rub - after a good period of time had passed I was doing some house chores and had to un-hook most of my system. In the interim one afternoon I decided that I needed musical accompaniment to my sanding and painting and scraping, so I hooked up the 3.5's with the old speaker wire. Jaw drop. They sounded, thin - almost lifeless. I double checked all the cables on everything. All good. While I will never spend the sort of money that "high end" esoteric cables ask for, I've spent more than I ever thought I would. I was a non-believer. Ask Jafant. Now my current system is all Transparent cables again. I still have a spool of bare-assed, simple, bigbox store speaker wire that I use occasionally to hook up a pair of Usher bookshelfs for kicks, but I'm sold on "better" cables. So there's my two cents. |
I love this thread! Whenever contrasting opinions are expressed (such as on the issue of cables), there is no name-calling or attempts to shout down disagreements. Maybe if we try to discuss about power cables then see if that statement still holds :-) But joking aside, looking at the internal cables used in the 2.4, with respect to Tom and Thiel's, I was wondering if they may be a bottle neck. They look suspiciously like something from Home Depot :-). There was a post a few months back from someone I forgot (holco or something) that when he upgraded the internal cables, there was a meaningful improvement. |
I love this thread! Whenever contrasting opinions are expressed (such as on the issue of cables), there is no name-calling or attempts to shout down disagreements. For guys like Prof and Brayeagle, who have tried a wide range of cables in their systems and ultimately decided not to invest a lot of time and money in expensive cabling, I respect their opinions on what works or doesn't work in their systems. However, for people who have never tried different cables with their gear, it may be worth a listen. I have never spent more than $400 on any single interconnect or speaker cable so I can't say that I have explored the cable "high end," but I have heard significant differences between the cables I have tried. Some cables were a great match for my system, while some were a bad match. If you have never had a chance to demo several cables through Thiel speakers in your home system, you might consider borrowing a few cables from a friend or audio dealer - or checking out cables from the lending library at the Cable Company. If you find specific cables that make your system sound more natural and musical, you will be able to move a little closer to audio perfection. On the other hand, if using different cables doesn't positively affect the sound of your system - for your own ears - then you can be happy with what you already have and save yourself a lot of time and money. This certainly is a fun and interesting hobby! |
andy2 I have to agree with prof on the speaker cable issue. Like prof, I've had access to several varieties of esoteric cables, but eventually returned to 10-gage Belden. I used to "roll my own," but decided to let Blue Jeans weld on the end connects, and got rid of my small remaining stock. I might not have the Golden Ears necessary to discern the differences among cables, so, YMMV. Cheers! |
Heh, I’ve had quite a bit of experience having had access to very high end cables. I used to have boutique cabling - I even have some Nordost right now, just sold some Wireworld eclipse speaker cables I owned, today along with a pair of speakers. And I’ve brought Belden cables to compare in friends systems, one of whom has about 50-60k in “the best” cabling. So it’s not like I’m not speaking from any experience. But....this is the place I’ve come to, and we all have our own audio journey. Respect to you, all views are welcome! Cheers! |
Yes I’ve been spoiled by the Thiels. Both by my current 2.7s and by my experience with the 3.7s. The 3.7 in particular seems to me an end-game speaker that will compete with the best for many years to come. While I love checking out high end systems of any type, it’s the rare system that totally grabs me with a tone that makes my brain think "yes, there’s something beautiful it’s capturing there!" That’s necessary for me to get along with a speaker for any length of time, but most systems sound a tad tonally "off" to me. (I'm not saying I'm a special listener, only that I have a strong subjective reaction to tone and timbre, and it's hard for me to want to bother with long listening sessions unless my brain says "this sounds right" in some important way....many others find this too of course). And this doesn’t mean that there is one single sound I’m looking for. I can find a seductive tone in a "modern sounding" speaker, or an older British design, or anything in between. Never know where it’s going to show up. That’s why I own a bunch of different speakers. But man, coming home from the Spendors, the Thiels were like an oasis of everything I like - rich, smooth, organic, palpable, punchy, dynamic, naturally detailed sounding. Wow! (And as I often point out, the Spendors were hooked up to all the fixings - expensive Nordost cabling, you name it, and there was nothing I heard in that sound that wasn’t evident and better in my own set up, without those boutique add-ons. In fact I had an audiophile drop over to listen to my system today and he was taken by the sound. He asked about my cabling and I told him it was standard Belden 10awg etc, and he was like "Wow, your system sure isn’t lacking in detail and amazing sound quality. Sounds like your cables are up to the task." Which is why my money goes in to speakers, where the money shows up strongest in the sound). |
prof, Your taste seems a bit discriminating. Some of the on-line reviews of the D7 have been pretty positive. Here’s a sample of one reivew:
https://www.whathifi.com/us/spendor/d7/review https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/spendor-d7-loudspeaker/?page=2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/spendor-d7-loudspeaker-page-2 It seems like the 3.7s have spoiled you like a secretary being spoiled by rich parents :-) |
Andy, My ears agree with yours. If I had to generalize from what I hear in the Thiel first order upper frequencies vs many of the high order speakers, I’d agree with what you wrote: perfectly integrated in the Thiels. I simply can not "hear out" the tweeter at all. Where I often feel like I hear a little power/frequency dip in the transition to a tweeter, giving a slight pinched quality to the high end, on the Thiels the sound remains "thick and smooth" all the way up through the high frequencies. Where the best of the high order speakers do have a little bit more sparkle/shine and perhaps smoothness riding on top. I admit I can like both depending on mood. Same with tube amps vs SS. Though I’ve tried various tube gear, by far most of my experience is with my own Conrad Johnson stuff (originally an MV55 amp, then the Premier 12s, along with my CJ Premier 16LS 2 preamp). Every time I do an SS vs my tube amps test, one of the things that stick out is how the sound becomes more coherent and believable with the tubes. Vocal sibilance for instance which can take on a hardened electronic spikiness with an SS amp just seems to soften and sit back in to the voice in stead of stick out artificially, so then voices sound natural.Even when there are artificially enhances sibilance and transients due to microphone choices/mixing etc, the sound is still more comfortable and natural sounding. It almost feels like going from a not-quite-yet-integrated tweeter/mid driver to adjusting the crossover to a seamless presentation. (BTW, not that the Thiels in particular need tubes to be smooth and integrated. I think they are one of those speakers that is successful with any reasonable amplifier). |
I suppose the argument about 1st order vs. higher filter will go on forever. Too bad there are so few (besides Vandersteen I don't know who else) actually make 1st speaker so people don't get to listen and understand the actual sound so they end up instead hearing from magazines who don't understand themselves. Of course magazines have there own agenda so who knows if they tell the truth. I've had this little exchange with someone who has been designing speakers as if his life depends on it. And we are trying to “objectify” why the difference and we both agree that the biggest difference is how the high frequency or to be specific the treble is reproduced. With 1st order, the treble is part of the music whereas with higher order filter, and we actually agree that higher order generally has a cleaner, clearer music reproduction, the treble seems to be riding on top of the music, instead of being integrated within the music like 1st order. And since the treble is where lies the most differences, what he does is that for example with three way speakers, the xover between the mid and the tweeter, he would use first order. The xover between the mid and the bass which is around 400hz, he would use 2nd, and since the wavelength at 400hz is so long, the phase does not matter much, and of course, 2nd is much easier to implement vs. 1st. This is consistent with speaker design in which at the low frequency such as the bass, amplification quality is not as important and as said above, our hearing is not that sensitive in the low frequency due to the longer wavelength. Most sub woofers if not all using digital amplification since using linear amplification probably does not make much of a difference. Try using digital amp for your tweeter :-)
Interestingly, after listening to 1st speakers for awhile now, I seem to attribute the sound to that of tube amplification. There is something to 1st order sound that is similar to tubes. And I don't think that is a coincidence either. Tubes have a way to deal with treble better than transistors. Transistors although always sound cleaner and clearer, compared to tubes, but they always sound somewhat clinical and analytical compared to tubes. I won't go into detail as to why since it may take quite a bit of spaces with all the technical stuffs that might drive prof crazy.
This leads me to something a bit analogous to what have said above with a slight twist. I currently have two preamps – one is a Pass Labs X10 which is transistor-based, and the other is a Conrad Johnson 17LS which is tube. Both are very good in their respective domain. The X10 is actually very smooth and warm and fluid in a transistor sort of way. The 17LS is a touch bright and extended vs. the X10, so you would think I would hear more “treble” on the 17LS, but that is not the case, because with the 17LS I just hear music because the treble is so well integrated with the entire musical range. On the X10, although sounding a touch warmer vs the 17LS, I would hear the treble somewhat sticking out like it is “riding on top of the music” as I have mentioned above. BUT here is the KICKER. When I design my speakers, I always use the X10 to fine tune my speakers because the X10 is more neutral and it is able to tell me the strength and weakness of my speakers better than the 17LS, and it allows me to better optimize my speakers xover. And of course with better optimzied speakers, I can enjoy them better with my CJ 17LS :-). So I guess it's a complementary, symbiotic thing.
A lot of time, with music and our hearing, things can get a bit complicated and people can get overly emotional, but there is something analogous to “sound” that can be more easily be “objectified” and generally agreed upon. And that is the physics of “light”. As with sound, it is frequency dependent. For example, lower frequency light tends to be reddish, whereas higher frequency light tends to be more bluish. And as analogous to sound, a image that has a lot of low frequency, it tends to be a bit less “sharp”, and likewise, an image that has a lot of high frequency content, the image will appears sharper and clearer.
Most people at one time or another have bought a brand new television set. The first thing you do when first receiving the TV is probably adjusting things like contrast, sharpness and so on. I am using “sharpness” as an example. So when you want more sharpness, what the TV would do is using a high pass filter or amplifying the high frequency range (similar to the high pass filter for the tweeter) so you get more high frequency and more bluish tonal balance on the picture hence a sharper image, just as the sound will get more clear if you have more treble. And of course as with sound, if the image gets too sharp, it can be “unnatural” similar to treble fatigue.
I am not an image processing engineer so I don't know the detail of image filter design, but someone told me that they actually face with something similar in speaker design, such that if they use higher order filter, the image can get “unnatural” albeit having more clarity. I suppose if you were to design a spy camera to search for weapon of mass destruction, you probably want to use higher order filter :-)
Anyway, back to speakers design with 1st or vs. higher order filter. Interestingly enough, if I were to run an audio recording studio, I would use higher order speakers to monitor the recording sound since I think higher order can tell me more about my recording sound, but when I go home, I'll use my 1st order speaker to enjoy the music. We human are yin and yang. Duality works. |
I auditioned some other floor standing speakers today - Spendor D7s. Meh. All it did was remind me the Thiels are sooooo good! The Thiels have such a huge, chunky, rhythmic sound with incredibly imaging yet (especially with my CJ amps) an organic beauty. Even though I'm probably adding another pair of speakers to my brood, I still can't see letting go of the Thiels. |
I just published in my virtual system the result of my online search and the great support from Rob Gillum, I finally realized my idea to make a special tribute to Thiel: a composed wall picture I made that captures some moments of Thiel life, now it's hanged in one wall of my listening room. The genius and every single contributors deserve it. A simple thing, nice to me. Hope you also appreciate it. |
Heads up! A pair of 3.7s just hit Audio mart if anyone is interested! Looks like they are in New York. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649553539-thiel-cs37-speakers/ |
Jimihandtrix - I checked my CS1.6 tweeters and contacted Rob. The answer is that the CS1.6 tweeter is a custom-made driver from the ground up - there are no markings on it. The SEAS may physically fit, but that's where the similarity ends. Note that Thiel tweeters have very unusual requirements since they cross over low and with a shallow slope. A normal tweeter would not blend properly and would not last very long. Rob has good supply of moving system / rebuild kits, but I don't know his stock for whole drivers. Let us know what you find out. |
