I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Unsound - The wavy drivers are very exciting, and depending on how the future unfolds, I hope to work with them. Regarding the CS5s, I doubt whether I can help the low impedance, which is baked in with those drivers. A dual input option would sequester the severe bass load to the woofer amp, to free the upper amp. But as you know, that solution requires additional amp investment. What I can address is the two bucket brigade delays for the two midrange drivers which insert 36 components in series with them. That delay can be directly achieved with physical driver offset by re-working the baffle. A veil will be lifted. Given more time in 1989, that 3-D baffle was my preferred solution. As a historical note, I would have expected a CS5.2 after my departure in the mid 1990s, but that model was not further developed after the driver replacements for the CS5i.
@tomthiel, it appears that you’d settled on a path. That is most encouraging. The models you’d decided to start with are perhaps closest to my heart. Though I must admit that Jim’s last co-axial drivers certainly have their appeal. Do you think your updated CS 5’s with simpler crossovers will ease the amplifier burden?
Oblgny - thank you for your thoughts and perspective. The input from you and this group serves as primary guidance along my foggy path. I know that I want to stabilize the brand into the future, and that will take the form of offering owners and upgrade clients a stable service platform, which Rob is now providing, but will need more legs on its stool for ongoing viability. I know that I want to make selected models better than when new to illustrate the viability of ongoing re-development. I know that I can't accomplish everyting myself, so I hope to inspire some as yet unknown person or team to take up the torch. I began my exploration with the CS2.2s, since I had them since 1990. Then came (5!) more models to compare and contrast. Most recently the 3.5 compared to the 3.6. Obl, I think you're on to something; I feel welcome with the 3.5s. And I am on to some inspiring refinements. This early work will all apply to subsequent models.
It turns out, to my surprise, that as Thiel advanced in time, its sales per model declined. The peak volumes were in my time with the CS2 and CS3.5, followed by the CS2.2 and declining thereafter. It also seems that appreciation and enthusiasm for the brand also may have peaked in the 1990s - I'm still gathering and sifting clues; I'll be visiting Rob in Lexington at the end of November for more insight and direction.
The truly iconic Thiels surely include the CS2 and CS3-3.5. Their age puts them in most danger of failure and they have ready upgrade potential via multiple avenues, many of which I have been exploring in the HotRodLab. The Renaissance products will not be restorations of the original executions, but rather reimaginings of what the designs hoped to become when they grew up.
Pieces of the puzzle are taking their places, thanks in great part to my interaction with this forum, both here and behind the curtain. The more recent designs will probably be addressed in historic order, or as I gather confidence and abilities. I am particularly enamored with the CS5 due to my personal history developing that product, and that it is the last of Jim's sealed bass designs, and that a reconfiguration of the baffle can eliminate over half of the series elements in the crossover and so forth.
JA, I would not be taking this path without your forum. Here is where I found a focus and so many generous souls who have provided insights, guidance and products for my development work. Thank you all so much.
Good to see you here as always. Hope that your are well and bunkered down for the cold draft this weekend (it even makes way to the deep South). I can attest to the notable Bass reproduction from CS 2.4 loudspeakers, rich and textured in presentation.
Glad to read below that your recent re-visit to my favorite Thiel model - the CS3.5 - has been included in your upgrade paths. For me this model is the no compromise model within those I have enjoyed thus far.
I always employed the bass EQ @ the 20hz setting. I am not a very technically oriented fellow to dare replacing internal organs and whatnot. The first pair of 3.5’s I had suffered a punctured midrange when I attempted to see why one was intermittent. Thanks to Rob for repairing it.
The “compromise” I encountered with the CS3.6 was that I had to play the music louder than I normally do. When driven a little more than my preferred level they were excellent, pure “Thiel.” At lower volume level they weren’t as resolving.
With the CS2.4 I find the soundstage to be very narrow. Again, when I play them a little above my normal level this opens up. The bass reproduction is particularly notable. The “other room” test confirms that.
All of this falls under the IMHO submission. For me, the 3.5’s perform superbly at all listening levels. Yes, there are times when I am inspired by a piece of music and up the volume, but most of my listening is done at very conservative levels. It was the 3.5 model that literally stopped me in my tracks because of their articulate reproduction at a low volume level.
The compromises I mention are small. I could live, and have lived with various perceived shortcomings before - on every piece of equipment I’ve owned. To find one’s optimum setup requires time, money, and opportunity. I am happy with my CS2.4’s currently, but I’d sell them in a heartbeat to get a pair of 3.5’s again.
Just purchased a pair of cs 7s today from Andy at Saturday audio exchange bringing them home tomorrow!! Traded in my beloved 3.6s that I had for 27 yrs can't wait to get some listening time
I’ll be honest: I think that the R8 DAC is the star of the show, sounding very nearly as good as the Aqua Formula xHD DAC which given its low price is an amazing achievement. But don’t assume that the Master 1 preamp and Master 3 power amp are mere bystanders. This pre-power pair also offers extremely good value for money, delivering a combination of transparency, neutrality, and even-handedness that is normally impossible in this price class. I think you can easily spend double the amount and not get better sound. But the most amazing aspect of all is perhaps the further increase in performance when all the components are wired using the proprietary ACSS connections, giving the system such a leap in performance that it becomes impossible to fault, even in the company of esoteric hardware. Oh, and should you still be worried about the build quality of these products then the 10-year (!) warranty should instill confidence.
jafant, It's interesting to think about what an ideal location for a retailer might be. 40 years ago I bet a pretty high percentage of people walking into Audio Consultants were people who lived in the neighborhood. I bet now almost none of them are. Certainly not the ones buying the expensive stuff. I bet they're mostly taking special trips to the store and it makes almost no difference where the store is as long as it's in the greater Chicagoland area. I was just poking around and F1 audio is moving to just south of where the Libertyville Audio Consultants was located on the same street. They'll be in a shopping center kitty corner to a former United Audio/Tweeter. There must be some demand around here. The only thing in the area that interests me is the SS3 in Libertyville on audiogon. I don't need it, can't justify it, won't buy it, but I want it.
The equalizer "went South"on mine. I've often wondered if a redesign of the XO would have made a difference. (And a midrange driver that wouldn't quit.)
George - I am aware of the veil imparted by the EQ, and also the magnificence of the 40Hz and especially the 20Hz bass boost. I am investigating alternatives to the EQ, since it has always been considered a mixed blessing, and is inherently limited in its audiophile values, is un-repairable in its present parts list. I've spoken with Joe who used to make the Golden Flutes for the early Thiel 3s. Hmmm.
Hi Guys - a report from the trenches. This week I have received my CS1.5s and 3.5s with EQ plus an Adcom 5300 amp. Thank you forum for providing these units for the hotrod garage! My setup is getting fairly flush, allowing comparison between various products with various sources and amplification changes via throwing a few switches. Also, I'm accumulating measurement data with FuzzMeasure to correlate what I'm hearing with detailed data. And add the decades of reviewer and user experience and your long-term observations and opinions, plus my recollections of how and why various developments occurred . . . the picture is getting much clearer. Today's fun was hooking up the 3.5s I picked up yesterday from Harry Lavo. What a trip; I haven't heard those in decades. I get it. You 3.5 guys saved me from dismissing them as obsolete due to replacement driver hassles. Rob and l are actively finding optimum drivers to take the 3.5 into the future. That 20 cycle sealed bass is stunning with realism and immediacy. The 3.5 was the last product designed before CNC machining and all-MDF construction. I'll do the measurements, but my stethoscope says the walls are much quieter than the newer products. Their 1-1/8" particleboard is nearly double the stiffness of 1" MDF and the spans are smaller than later bass reflex cabinets plus the internal bracing is end-grain spruce, which is quite effective. CNC manufacturing dictated gravitation toward one material (1"mdf) including shelf braces. This week the EQ and its schematic are going to my tech for upgrade analysis. Anyhow, I'm loving the 3.5s and plan to tackle them after the 1.5s which are simpler as a sandbox.
I have been reading stories about the rent/tenant situation around the greater Chicago area lately. That city is following the trends found in California and NYC currently. It appears that small businesses simply cannot or will not pay those highly inflated prices. Sad for Consumers and Patrons within the (3) markets.
I can't believe Audio Consultants is going away completely. They had 4 stores in the area only 2 or 3 years ago. I live about 10 minutes from where the Libertyville store was and that's where I've bought much of my stuff over the years. I'm in my early forties and it's amazing how much audio has changed just since I've been following it since the nineties. I'm glad I got good quality stuff before the audio world got this bad.
The state of high end audio as far as local stores is really sad. Not only have the number of dealers declined, but to me it seems that the ones that are not all that great and are still in business stick out more. Many have also gone to cheaper rents in industrial parks with a policy of appointments vs. regular business hours. Some of those are in quarters which don't have the capacity for as many listening rooms (and many also do more custom audio and home theater installations vs. deal in strictly equipment) as what many are accustomed to. There seems to be more vendors that sell consumer direct and regional audio shows have increased to allow consumers to hear things they would otherwise not have an opportunity to do. Some of those venues make it a bit more difficult to get a good audition (unless one stays at the venue and arranges an after hours session). It's just the way it is.
IMO, the driving factor is the cost involved to reach the top of a two-channel system.
My five grandchildren have excellent two-channel systems, and all have chosen to avoid streaming of classical music. Their main objections to upgrading from "excellent' to "superlative" are (to them) the exorbitant costs. All five spin Redbook CDs on Bryston players and electronics and have speakers ranging from B&Ws to Bryston Mini Ts. (I'm trying to persuade them to go for some 2.3s or 2.4s; however , they're contented with what they have. All had "splurged" on their systems, and disposable income is now being socked away for their children's college funds.
jazzman - thank you for the news; sad but grounded in the facts of our times. Simon, and by extension the whole Audio Consultants organization, was a dream come true. I believe that if the marketplace were filled with retailers of his caliber, our marketplace would be far healthier and maybe even vibrant.
It may interest this group that when New Thiel assembled its first team including National Sales Manager Steve DeFuria, among his first moves was to re-enlist some core, respected retailers to re-focus Thiel in the marketplace. Audio Consultants was his first approach and acceptance, and they would have been a king-pin if New Thiel had stayed on its stated course of being true to Jim's vision. I don't have any figures, but I suspect that Audio Consultants may have been Thiel's top-selling dealer of all time.
Simon Zreczny, the owner of Audio Consultants, had a 52 year run, having opened in 1967. Of note to this group is that they started with Thiel in 1981 and were for all intents and purposes the hub of the Thiel community in the Chicago area. They were a class act and will be missed.
I am not sure why but high-end audio is a pretty tough business. I think partly because the younger generation does not care much of "sound quality". Actually it’s hard for me to strike a conversation regarding high-end audio with anyone since I find most people are not really into it either.
For most people as long as there are some music playing from a pair of speakers, they’d be fine. I guess I belong to a dying breed. I tend to be rather particular about my system.
Sad news. Just received email from Audio Consultants (long time Chicago area dealer located in Evanston) that they will be closing their doors on December 21st.
It's in the air that Tomthiel is about to design some amazing upgrade even for the CS 3.6, I really can't wait to realize how much better they can sound. I consider the CS 3.6 a sort of very well sounding loudspeakers and very hard or impossible to beat at its original retail price so I wonder what is going to happen with this upcoming Tomthiel touch up?Keep studying Tom, the Thiel renaissance is in your hands. All we together will make Thiel never die.
Unsound - the CS2 and CS2.2 are conceptually the same product. Same driver sets, same crossover points. I believe whatever drivers we develop for the 2.2 going forward can be retrofitted to the CS2, along with the upgrades being developed for the other models. I'm looking for a pair.
Rules - I like the term "time coincidence" as less confusing.Also note that the term of art 'minimum phase' includes the least possible, given all constraints. Note also that the phase lead vs lag in crossover regions does completely cancel each other to net zero. Bass tuning does not have that counteracting slope, so bass phase leads and lags with its resonant behavior. DSP can do stuff, no doubt, but with its own consequences.
Unsound - IF there were a boutique company refurbishing classic Thiel speakers, I think the CS2 would be a prime candidate. Let's spin a little: There were 5500 pairs made, built like little tanks, available for short money. One might probably insert CS2.2 drivers (as successors are developed) with necessary XO mods, or 3.5 tweeters and/or midranges. Solveable. With today's tools, such as SpectraFoo and Klippel, a more robust anti-diffraction solution could be developed to replace the 1/2" MDF grille with perhaps a 1" equivalent like the CS1.5 AND the 04a rubber elastomer strips could be increased for very effective coupling. The CS2 has 6-9s coils and wire and styrene ultra bypasses around 1uF styrene bypasses for plenty of salvageable XO value. With my developing 'controlled wave-launch' baffle / grille technology, I am confident we could get class-leading performance.
The necessary ingredients are not in the design or technology departments, they are in the youthful vigor department - need of the right team to pull off the ongoing project. I'm working on that.
If you or anybody has a pair of CS2s, I hereby offer DIY coaching to hot-rod them.
@tomthiel. Too bad about the CS 2's. From time to time I see reasonably nice examples being offered for sale for about a couple of hundred bucks. Shari once told me that they were Thiel's most reliable product. The sensitivity being a fairly reasonable 87 dB is enhanced with a very smooth (and fairly kind load for Thiel's) 6 Ohm nominal / 5 Ohm minimum impedance. All in all easy to drive. This and bass that drops cleanly to below 40 Hz. Other than the trick baffle/grill (which perhaps fortunately is a bit difficult to remove) it seems like a rather simple straightforward design of rather exceptional execution, that could be easily maintained for a long time. And no need for stands!, ha. All told at present prices these might be the best used speaker values currently available. These could make for great entry into the hobby, gift setup, charitable contribution, etc.. I'm sure many of these were sold. It almost becomes a social consideration as to whether or not to let these go to waste.
Lest I mislead anyone about the ease of powering them, let me say that while from a technical perspective they are very accommodating, sonically they can be more discriminating.
Ok, let's try to keep the concepts clear. Time coherence is different from phase coherence and obtained differently. Thiel speakers are time coherent from an 8' distance as the drivers are set back in the baffle and the sound needs to travel some distance to fully integrate. In my measurements, I obtained time coherence within a few mm. at 8 ft among the drivers excluding room reflections by using freq dependent windowing. Phase coherence in Thiel speakers is at best minimum phase, which means there is a phase shift that is measurable. The first order xo filters and the drivers have a minimum phase effect. This minimum phase effect can be reduced with dsp and other cancellation methods and linear phase can be approached above 100 hz. As Tom has warned, the preringing can become an audible problem so pick your imperfection. Andy, if your point is that all speakers have some phase shift dependent on the frequency, there is argument. Thiel specifies it to be within 14 degrees which is considerably better then most alternatives. With dsp, the phase shift can be further improved if desired at the expense of potential preringing, although this effect can be mitigated to some degree with additional filters.
Beetle - Stereophile's next publisher after Larry Archibald did not tolerate the editor producing content that put their major advertisers in dim light. Andy - Design intent is 8' minimum distance. Farther away yields larger listening window. Jon - power response is the energy dispersed through the whole room, which affects overall tonal balance, especially with phase coherent systems where reflected energy begins at the speaker as coherent waveforms. Robert - I like the tenor of your observations. Keep it up.
As you all know, I am taking on the 3.5 after the 1.5. Both models are from the golden era and both sold more units to more loyal customers than any other products (the CS2 also fits that description, but its actualized design limitations and lack of parts takes it out.) My 1.5s are on their way. I'm looking for a pair of 3.5s to borrow or buy.
With the wealth of knowledge, experience and appreciation of the experience of music on this site, especially Unsound, of course Tom Thiel and many others, I am well on my way to an upgraded system with the relatively recent addition of 3.5s to my 2.2s. For serious listening beginning last month I can now alternate them on my new vintage B & K m200s with 400w/4 ohms, but still need to use my old integrated (80w/4 ohms) as a pre for now.
They are in different similarly sized rooms with different orientations, each opening to another room and likely a 2 or 4 AWG discrepancy in speaker cables and several feet of length per pair, so any comparisons between the 2 must only be taken as preliminary observations. The additional power really made the 2.2s shine in every way possible, not news to (almost) everyone on this site. My long held view that they were a very slight bit bass shy unless played loud was completely wrong, absolutely present for the mid bass with the 400w, somewhat more than the 3.5s even, but not quite as well defined. What was missing was the sub bass that one feels with the 3.5s. Outside of the higher frequencies, the 3.5s have a bit more of almost everything, especially soundstage and depth, and are easier to drive.
Love them both, they are more alike than not, and could never part with either because each gives a slightly different experience of the music, but I do listen to the 3.5s more. With their present configurations one could almost make the overgeneralization that the 3.5s lean a slight bit more to the analytical side while the 2.2s to the more impressionistic, but that would likely be modified and refined if all other things were equal.
As many others have said, each step up unfolds new insights and enjoyment. Funny how the more I learn the less I know, but I am enjoying the process tremendously.
I have to eventually ask Tom if all Thiel products are optimized for far field? That is if I measure the frequency response at far field then repeat at near field, should it deviate a lot? At far field, room interactions may hide things that near field will reveal.
I have seen some step responses measured by Stereophile for some of the Vandersteen speakers and John Atkinson has to move the microphone up and down to get it right otherwise the treble response will peak too much (probably due to deviation in phases). But I think it's like cheating. The listener probably will probably not know which way to move to get the best step response. Also it seems like Vandersteens may sacrifice the freq. response too much in order to achieve time phase coherent. For example, the tweeter crosses over the mid at 1KHz which think is pretty low for a tweeter and I wouldn't personally do that just to get time phase coherent. At least I don't think Thiel speakers do that.
I think when you measure at far field such as 8ft, the drivers will in general integrate better because the phase a better aligned at far field vs at near field. For example, if you place a microphone at 1meter at the midrange height, the acoustic distance from the mid to the tweeter will be, let say 4in. Now if you move the microphone at 8ft distant, the relative acoustic difference will be less than 4in. It's like looking at things from far distant and your movement will probably not change the field of vision very much vs. if you're really close.
"in-room power response" - I don't know what that means and if I ever find the time to look into it it'll probably be decades from now. I will say that maybe the biggest reason I became a Thiel guy is that the 20 year old 2 2's I got for a second system sounded so great in a far from great room. A lot of reflections will certainly lower resolution but they don't need to make the music unlistenable because it's way to bright, way to bass-heavy and dull, etc. The overall character of the sound can remain intact if the speaker allows it to.
Soundstage (NRC lab) measures speakers at 2 m - 79”. Their CS2.4 frequency response looks *much* better than that measured by Stereophile. In fact, the 2.4 has the flattest measured response of any in their database (actually, there is a Magico model that was similarly flat). There was at least one test by JA of a Thiel (or was it a Vandy?) wherein he acknowledged the problems around measuring the speaker at only 50”. But he ignored that issue thereafter.
Tom, you wrote: snip > A lot of the confusion revolves around magazines/reviewers not being able to measure in those real-world situations.
snip > I don't buy the charts. Note they are taken at 50" and on the tweeter axis, both of which meet Stereophile's MO, but are illegitimate for the system under test. At 100" and 35" ear height, those measurements actually yield clean triangles without those false anomalies.
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