tomthiel
It is imperative to post both negative and positive experiences when dealing with these repair operations/techs. We would not want other Audiophiles to have the same misfortune(s).
I am looking forward in reading more about the Adcom/Benchmark/Classe'
shoot-outs.
Happy Listening!
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I noticed 2 different sets of Thiel speakers available on USAudioMart ,
a pair of CS3.6s and 7.2s .
Also I would like to clarify my last post ,
I was trying to point out that a Reviewer was using a pair of
CS3.7 speakers as his reference , he had also owned a pair of 7.2s .
I looked up other reviews from this site and found SCS4Ts and
CS3.7s were reviewed .
The reviewer of the 3.7s previously owned CS3.6s ,
this seems to be a Thiel freindly and knowledgable site .
As for my McCormack DNA-250 amp made by Conrad Johnson ,
I can not reccomend it in it's stock form but
after upgrading componets trying to imitate the CJ MF-2550se
I am amazed at the transformation and will say
if you can afford the MF-2550SE go for it and it's not that heavy .
I can see why DNA owners rave about thier amps AFTER
sending them in for upgrades and why CJ owners like their amps because of the custom Capacitors they use ( and won't sell me ) ,
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vair68robert
Nice catch! No doubt that the CJ MF-2550/2550SE will become a modern classic. This is probably the last solid-state power amp we will see from CJ as well. Thank You for posting impressions on this model plus McCormack DNA.
Happy Listening!
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It seems that I found here in Italy a specialist in repairing even such sophisticated drivers like the customized Vifa for Thiel. Actually he is a highly rated amplifiers and loudspeakers craftsman builder and his lab is provided of all needed professional euipment to do it right. As I already told here, I already bought a full set of drivers for my CS3.6's from Rob Gillum but the defective ones are still in my hands and I would be very happy to have the possibility to get them properly working again as new spares. Next week I'll give him two mids and two woofers to try the reparation., he told me to have some idea on what can be the cause of the defective sound (mine were not fully die but shown only a sort of break up transient at certain frequency). I will report here the result of this attempted ressurrection in case someone is on the need.
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Heck, there’s a pair of CS 6 up for grabs right here on Audiogon for $1200, but either they are in pretty funky condition or the seller’s camera can’t do them justice.
In the not too distant past I probably woulda jumped ugly on ‘em based on the seller’s price alone but, I’ve wisened up. A little.
Like many sellers here, I have used US Audiomart to buy and sell my equipment. A lot of people here advertise their equipment there at the same time as well - why not? It’s free.
My experiences there mirror those I have had here, all good. (I’ve had only ONE negative experience on Audiogon since joining, and that was from a buyer who claimed non-receipt of my shipment. Fortunately, but still unfortunate for moi, it wasn’t a “significant” amount of money so I simply refunded his payment in full. Never heard from him again.)
What this site could benefit from, a nice touch on the other site, would be to allow us to narrow our searches by state if we wish. I used to be able to input my zip code here and that would produce relatively good results, but no longer. This matters especially when searching for Thiels or other large, or heavy speakers. Shipping can prove costly.
Also, the folks on the other site aren’t as diligent in providing feedback. I have four transactions that haven’t been rated there. Methinks that’s important.
On point to this thread; “breaking in” my newly acquired CS2.4’s with the Belles 250i Integrated has been an absolute joy. While I can’t speak for any other Belles product, this one has met and exceeded my expectations. From its rather large external power supply, (which attaches to the amp via an umbilical) to the simple design of the faceplate, this continues to impress. Solid state power, tubed preamplifier section - well done all around.
I have to assume that it runs class A/B because it does warm up after a little while. It’s not going to raise your room temperature, but compared to virtually every amp/integrated I’ve owned it runs warmer.
Since a previous post, I have removed the maple blocks from under the speakers, opting instead to place them on small isolation blocks which the spikes settle firmly into. At this minimally lower height off the floor I find the separation to have improved - not the sweet spot. That I’m getting accustomed to. It still strikes me as being narrower than any of the previous models I’ve owned.
There is more than merely sufficient bass response from the 2.4’s as well. The two versions of Ginger Baker’s “Cyril Davies” and “Cyril Davis” - same composition with different titles, are a good place to start comparing. On one version - the more “acoustic” version, the upright bass is sinewy, taut, yet taffy-like flexible - and the effect is both felt and heard clearly through these speakers.
No doubt the quality of the Belles contributes a lot to such timbre, tension, and resonance. And no doubt that these speakers are up to the task of faithfully reproducing it.
Neato. |
silvanik
Thank You for sharing this information from your side of the World. I am looking forward in reading more about the speaker repair report.
Happy Listening! |
Jimihandtrix - I checked my CS1.6 tweeters and contacted Rob. The answer is that the CS1.6 tweeter is a custom-made driver from the ground up - there are no markings on it. The SEAS may physically fit, but that's where the similarity ends. Note that Thiel tweeters have very unusual requirements since they cross over low and with a shallow slope. A normal tweeter would not blend properly and would not last very long. Rob has good supply of moving system / rebuild kits, but I don't know his stock for whole drivers. Let us know what you find out.
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Jimi - my apologies for confusion. I mis-remembered your model. I was speaking about the CS1.6 tweeter and you have CS1.2s for which I have no information. Please query Rob and let us know the outcome.
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Rob says the CS1.2 tweeter is a SEAS 25TAC/GW H420 which is different from your SEAS 25TAF/G H400. Rob has rebuild kits, but no new drivers.
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tomthiel
Thank You for consistently staying in contact with Rob at CSS.
Hope you are well and gearing up for the Fall season.
Happy Listening! |
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I just published in my virtual system the result of my online search and the great support from Rob Gillum, I finally realized my idea to make a special tribute to Thiel: a composed wall picture I made that captures some moments of Thiel life, now it's hanged in one wall of my listening room. The genius and every single contributors deserve it. A simple thing, nice to me.
Hope you also appreciate it.
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Heads up! A pair of 3.7s just hit Audio mart if anyone is interested! Oh man, I always wanted a pair of 3.7s in ebony!!! Someone will be awfully lucky to get those. The 3.7s are still probably the best over all speaker I've ever owned. |
Oh man, I always wanted a pair of 3.7s in ebony!! Agreed! They are my favorite color next to the Morado. |
I had the Morado because I couldn't find it in ebony (which is a perfect match for my room, as are the 2.7s I have in ebony). I was actually going to get the Morado re-finished in another ebony-like color, but ended up selling the 3.7s.
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bighempin
Nice catch! Good to see your return here.
Happy Listening! |
silvanik
A nice system and beautiful pics of your room. I like the Thiel Audio homage.
Happy Listening! |
I auditioned some other floor standing speakers today - Spendor D7s.
Meh.
All it did was remind me the Thiels are sooooo good! The Thiels have such a huge, chunky, rhythmic sound with incredibly imaging yet (especially with my CJ amps) an organic beauty.
Even though I'm probably adding another pair of speakers to my brood, I still can't see letting go of the Thiels.
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I suppose the argument
about 1st order vs. higher filter will go on forever. Too
bad there are so few (besides Vandersteen I don't know who else)
actually make 1st speaker so people don't get to listen
and understand the actual sound so they end up instead hearing from
magazines who don't understand themselves. Of course magazines have there own agenda so who knows if they tell the truth.
I've had this little
exchange with someone who has been designing speakers as if his life
depends on it. And we are trying to “objectify” why the
difference and we both agree that the biggest difference is how the
high frequency or to be specific the treble is reproduced. With 1st
order, the treble is part of the music whereas with higher order
filter, and we actually agree that higher order generally has a cleaner,
clearer music reproduction, the treble seems to be riding on top of
the music, instead of being integrated within the music like 1st
order.
And since the treble is
where lies the most differences, what he does is that for example
with three way speakers, the xover between the mid and the tweeter,
he would use first order. The xover between the mid and the bass
which is around 400hz, he would use 2nd, and since the
wavelength at 400hz is so long, the phase does not matter much, and
of course, 2nd is much easier to implement vs. 1st.
This is consistent with speaker design in which at the low frequency
such as the bass, amplification quality is not as important and as
said above, our hearing is not that sensitive in the low frequency
due to the longer wavelength. Most sub woofers if not all using
digital amplification since using linear amplification probably does
not make much of a difference. Try using digital amp for your
tweeter :-)
Interestingly, after
listening to 1st speakers for awhile now, I seem to
attribute the sound to that of tube amplification. There is
something to 1st order sound that is similar to tubes.
And I don't think that is a coincidence either. Tubes have a way to
deal with treble better than transistors. Transistors although
always sound cleaner and clearer, compared to tubes, but they always
sound somewhat clinical and analytical compared to tubes. I won't go
into detail as to why since it may take quite a bit of spaces with
all the technical stuffs that might drive prof crazy.
This leads me to something
a bit analogous to what have said above with a slight twist. I
currently have two preamps – one is a Pass Labs X10 which is
transistor-based, and the other is a Conrad Johnson 17LS which is
tube. Both are very good in their respective domain. The X10 is
actually very smooth and warm and fluid in a transistor sort of way.
The 17LS is a touch bright and extended vs. the X10, so you would
think I would hear more “treble” on the 17LS, but that is not the
case, because with the 17LS I just hear music because the treble is
so well integrated with the entire musical range. On the X10,
although sounding a touch warmer vs the 17LS, I would hear the treble
somewhat sticking out like it is “riding on top of the music” as
I have mentioned above. BUT here is the KICKER. When I design my
speakers, I always use the X10 to fine tune my speakers because the
X10 is more neutral and it is able to tell me the strength and
weakness of my speakers better than the 17LS, and it allows me to
better optimize my speakers xover. And of course with better optimzied speakers, I can enjoy them better with my CJ 17LS
:-). So I guess it's a complementary, symbiotic thing.
A lot of time, with music
and our hearing, things can get a bit complicated and people can get
overly emotional, but there is something analogous to “sound”
that can be more easily be “objectified” and generally agreed
upon. And that is the physics of “light”. As with sound, it is
frequency dependent. For example, lower frequency light tends to be
reddish, whereas higher frequency light tends to be more bluish. And
as analogous to sound, a image that has a lot of low frequency, it
tends to be a bit less “sharp”, and likewise, an image that has a
lot of high frequency content, the image will appears sharper and
clearer.
Most people at one time or
another have bought a brand new television set. The first thing you
do when first receiving the TV is probably adjusting things like
contrast, sharpness and so on. I am using “sharpness” as an
example. So when you want more sharpness, what the TV would do is
using a high pass filter or amplifying the high frequency range (similar to the high pass filter for the
tweeter) so you get more high frequency and more bluish tonal balance
on the picture hence a sharper image, just as the sound will get more
clear if you have more treble. And of course as with sound, if the
image gets too sharp, it can be “unnatural” similar to treble
fatigue.
I am not an image
processing engineer so I don't know the detail of image filter
design, but someone told me that they actually face with something
similar in speaker design, such that if they use higher order filter,
the image can get “unnatural” albeit having more clarity. I
suppose if you were to design a spy camera to search for weapon of
mass destruction, you probably want to use higher order filter :-)
Anyway, back to speakers
design with 1st or vs. higher order filter. Interestingly
enough, if I were to run an audio recording studio, I would use
higher order speakers to monitor the recording sound since I think
higher order can tell me more about my recording sound, but when I go
home, I'll use my 1st order speaker to enjoy the music.
We human are yin and yang. Duality works.
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Andy,
My ears agree with yours.
If I had to generalize from what I hear in the Thiel first order upper frequencies vs many of the high order speakers, I’d agree with what you wrote: perfectly integrated in the Thiels. I simply can not "hear out" the tweeter at all. Where I often feel like I hear a little power/frequency dip in the transition to a tweeter, giving a slight pinched quality to the high end, on the Thiels the sound remains "thick and smooth" all the way up through the high frequencies. Where the best of the high order speakers do have a little bit more sparkle/shine and perhaps smoothness riding on top. I admit I can like both depending on mood.
Same with tube amps vs SS. Though I’ve tried various tube gear, by far most of my experience is with my own Conrad Johnson stuff (originally an MV55 amp, then the Premier 12s, along with my CJ Premier 16LS 2 preamp).
Every time I do an SS vs my tube amps test, one of the things that stick out is how the sound becomes more coherent and believable with the tubes. Vocal sibilance for instance which can take on a hardened electronic spikiness with an SS amp just seems to soften and sit back in to the voice in stead of stick out artificially, so then voices sound natural.Even when there are artificially enhances sibilance and transients due to microphone choices/mixing etc, the sound is still more comfortable and natural sounding. It almost feels like going from a not-quite-yet-integrated tweeter/mid driver to adjusting the crossover to a seamless presentation. (BTW, not that the Thiels in particular need tubes to be smooth and integrated. I think they are one of those speakers that is successful with any reasonable amplifier).
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Hi prof,
I wish I get to audition a pair of Thiel 3.7 someday ... preferably at my home :-) I actually like big speakers. |
andy2
Excellent points all around. I concur with prof. My ears agree with yours. Good to read that you are having fun building speakers and fine-tuning with Conrad Johnson / Pass Labs. Both of those pre-amps are excellent in their own designs.
Happy Listening! |
prof
Good to see you again. You will have to look high and low to better a Thiel loudspeaker. It never hurts to demo other brands on the flip-side.
Happy Listening! |
It never hurts to demo other brands on the flip-side.
I think there was a thread where prof auditioned tons of speakers but he couldn't find a reason to switch. |
prof and I had a couple of discussions on the 3.7 vs 2.7 Thiels.
I was able to audition both speakers over a couple of weeks at the dealer's, using my collection of classical and organ CDs. I settled for the 2.7s, plus a SS2.2 sub, Close contest, but the sub made the difference.
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brayeagle
Your ears did not deceive - it is very close comparing the CS 2.7 to CS 3.7 models. Room size is the contributing factor I found.
Happy Listening! |
Andy, yes my "Contemplating Devore speakers" thread. I just added another speaker audition to it: Spendor D7s.
The Spendors just didn't sound as natural as my 2.7s. The 2.7s seemed to beat them in just about every parameter.
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Yes I’ve been spoiled by the Thiels. Both by my current 2.7s and by my experience with the 3.7s. The 3.7 in particular seems to me an end-game speaker that will compete with the best for many years to come.
While I love checking out high end systems of any type, it’s the rare system that totally grabs me with a tone that makes my brain think "yes, there’s something beautiful it’s capturing there!" That’s necessary for me to get along with a speaker for any length of time, but most systems sound a tad tonally "off" to me. (I'm not saying I'm a special listener, only that I have a strong subjective reaction to tone and timbre, and it's hard for me to want to bother with long listening sessions unless my brain says "this sounds right" in some important way....many others find this too of course).
And this doesn’t mean that there is one single sound I’m looking for. I can find a seductive tone in a "modern sounding" speaker, or an older British design, or anything in between. Never know where it’s going to show up. That’s why I own a bunch of different speakers.
But man, coming home from the Spendors, the Thiels were like an oasis of everything I like - rich, smooth, organic, palpable, punchy, dynamic, naturally detailed sounding. Wow!
(And as I often point out, the Spendors were hooked up to all the fixings - expensive Nordost cabling, you name it, and there was nothing I heard in that sound that wasn’t evident and better in my own set up, without those boutique add-ons. In fact I had an audiophile drop over to listen to my system today and he was taken by the sound. He asked about my cabling and I told him it was standard Belden 10awg etc, and he was like "Wow, your system sure isn’t lacking in detail and amazing sound quality. Sounds like your cables are up to the task." Which is why my money goes in to speakers, where the money shows up strongest in the sound).
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He asked about my cabling and I told him it was standard Belden 10awg etc, and he was like "Wow, your system sure isn’t lacking in detail and amazing sound quality. Sounds like your cables are up to the task."
prof, You don't know what's you're missing :-) |
Heh, I’ve had quite a bit of experience having had access to very high end cables. I used to have boutique cabling - I even have some Nordost right now, just sold some Wireworld eclipse speaker cables I owned, today along with a pair of speakers. And I’ve brought Belden cables to compare in friends systems, one of whom has about 50-60k in “the best” cabling. So it’s not like I’m not speaking from any experience.
But....this is the place I’ve come to, and we all have our own audio journey. Respect to you, all views are welcome!
Cheers!
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andy2
I have to agree with prof on the speaker cable issue. Like prof, I've had access to several varieties of esoteric cables, but eventually returned to 10-gage Belden.
I used to "roll my own," but decided to let Blue Jeans weld on the end connects, and got rid of my small remaining stock.
I might not have the Golden Ears necessary to discern the differences among cables, so, YMMV.
Cheers!
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I love this thread! Whenever contrasting opinions are expressed (such as on the issue of cables), there is no name-calling or attempts to shout down disagreements.
For guys like Prof and Brayeagle, who have tried a wide range of cables in their systems and ultimately decided not to invest a lot of time and money in expensive cabling, I respect their opinions on what works or doesn't work in their systems. However, for people who have never tried different cables with their gear, it may be worth a listen.
I have never spent more than $400 on any single interconnect or speaker cable so I can't say that I have explored the cable "high end," but I have heard significant differences between the cables I have tried. Some cables were a great match for my system, while some were a bad match.
If you have never had a chance to demo several cables through Thiel speakers in your home system, you might consider borrowing a few cables from a friend or audio dealer - or checking out cables from the lending library at the Cable Company. If you find specific cables that make your system sound more natural and musical, you will be able to move a little closer to audio perfection. On the other hand, if using different cables doesn't positively affect the sound of your system - for your own ears - then you can be happy with what you already have and save yourself a lot of time and money.
This certainly is a fun and interesting hobby!
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I love this thread! Whenever contrasting opinions are expressed (such as on the issue of cables), there is no name-calling or attempts to shout down disagreements. Maybe if we try to discuss about power cables then see if that statement still holds :-) But joking aside, looking at the internal cables used in the 2.4, with respect to Tom and Thiel's, I was wondering if they may be a bottle neck. They look suspiciously like something from Home Depot :-). There was a post a few months back from someone I forgot (holco or something) that when he upgraded the internal cables, there was a meaningful improvement. |
I think that the ongoing debate regarding cables is rendered moot when one considers what a difference an amp, or a preamp, or any piece of equipment contributes to a system's overall synergy. Thiel took me on quite an interesting journey to find the "right" amplification in order to hear them at their best. (Even though they sounded better than anything else I've heard hooked up with some old speaker wire I had lying around after I turned my Klipsch Epic 3's into CD cases.) Come to think of it, when I dismantled those Epics for the repurposing as CD cases I was surprised to discover that the internal, factory wiring was...speaker wire exactly like I used to hook them up. Go figger.
After many an amp/preamp combo I finally stumbled upon Pass Labs. Boing! Kapow! All that good stuff. And I mean great stuff. My CS3.5's (at the time) became incredible loudspeakers as opposed to merely great loudspeakers. I had all my associated equipment, the amp and preamp, the cd player, the server, the turntable, maple platforms, this and that, without ever considering upgrading the speaker wire, err...cables. So I did.
I have to admit that all of the aforementioned equipment IS easier to judge as to whether or not any makes a tangible difference in bettering a system. We also get to SEE all the aforementioned equipment joining the herd whereas cables disappear into the background.They don't glow, they don't have remote controls, there's no hands on finagling after we've connected 'em. BORING!
So, the very last thing I started paying attention to in my system were the cables. Everything I had was still was hooked up with what the manufacturers provided in the boxes, those Best Buy rca cable interconnects, the power cords, what have you. I went around the corner to my local bricks and mortar audio shop in beautiful downtown Lake Grove, NY, and bought a bunch of Transparent Music Wave connects and speaker cables. (The only cable I could not change was on the Marantz TT-15 turntable, which was essentially a Clearaudio model with a Marantz badge slapped on it.) For some silly reason they only supplied a proprietary cable which could not swapped out. Harrrumph!
I had been enjoying my system for quite a while with the ordinary cables by this point. Now, with all the new cables in place I settled back. Did I hear a palpable, tangible difference when I first hooked them up? No, I did not. But here's the rub - after a good period of time had passed I was doing some house chores and had to un-hook most of my system. In the interim one afternoon I decided that I needed musical accompaniment to my sanding and painting and scraping, so I hooked up the 3.5's with the old speaker wire.
Jaw drop. They sounded, thin - almost lifeless. I double checked all the cables on everything. All good.
While I will never spend the sort of money that "high end" esoteric cables ask for, I've spent more than I ever thought I would. I was a non-believer. Ask Jafant. Now my current system is all Transparent cables again. I still have a spool of bare-assed, simple, bigbox store speaker wire that I use occasionally to hook up a pair of Usher bookshelfs for kicks, but I'm sold on "better" cables.
So there's my two cents.
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https://imgur.com/gallery/RidPnxL Well that didn’t take long! I made the mistake of taking my grill covers off for a few hours and my 6 year old couldn’t resist the urge to touch the tweeter on one of my 3.7s while I was out of the room. She dented it pretty good. Check out the pictures. Any tips or advice? Thanks for the help. |
Bighempin - try masking tape or rig a vacuum cleaner to a small diameter tube to suck it out. I suggest a vacuum bypass in your tube, such as a hole you can cover with your finger to adjust vacuum pressure. Too much vacuum pressure could rupture the foil.
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TomThiel- Thank you for the response. Do I need to remove the little black cage that is over the tweeter to use the vacuum or masking tape method? If so, how do I do that? Thanks |
Bighempin - I have never seen that tweeter up close and personal. I believe that tweeter module comes out of the midrange mount. But that's risky business for a non-adept. I personally would try it in place. Your child's finger went in the center hole, so the failure geometry exists within that central area.
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Andy 2 - Beetlemania and Holco (?) both reported improvements with internal wire. I have wire from StraightWire and Cardas in my comparison kit. However, the wire itself in the 2.4s is pretty high-end. It is 5-9s, high purity, low oxygen, long crystal, high polish 18 gauge solid in teflon jackets, precision twisted at 2.5 / inch. We first developed that wire in 1978 via our access to aerospace instrumentation solutions. The ITT aerospace 6-9s wire is no longer available, but current Thiel wire is as good as is available for its type.
Now, all that said, I believe there is possibly room for improvement via multi-gauge litzed bundling. Remember that a manufacturer occupying Thiel's cost-effective niche, can never afford state of the art, every decision is balanced for optimizing cost-effective balanced performance. But I will be substituting more sophisticated wire to compare its performance with stock.
I should note that in the development of the original 03 in 1977, wire purity for hookup and coils was paramount to getting listenable results from the phase coherent configuration, as I have elaborated earlier in this thread. I am very tuned in to wire, wire was in my purview during Thiel's first 20 years.
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However, the wire itself in the 2.4s is pretty high-end. It is 5-9s, high purity, low oxygen, long crystal, high polish 18 gauge solid in teflon jackets, precision twisted at 2.5 / inch.
Hi Tom, I was only joking about the Home Depot stuffs :-) |
Jaw drop. They sounded, thin - almost lifeless. I double checked all the cables on everything. All good.
Perhaps the old cables need to be "re-broken in" :-) |
biglhemp, I've had success with a model CS2 tweeter with a similar problem using an empty toilet paper roll placed over the tweeter and gently sucking. Not sure if the 3.7 tweeter would likewise respond to this, but I was afraid to use anything more powerful.
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Masking tape has my vote.
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Question ..... would you be able to fit a straw through the cage that covers the tweeter? |
Yes! perhaps a fat milkshake straw for mouth suction.
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andy2
prof 's loudspeaker audition thread is an excellent read. He covered many popular brands in detail. This information is especially helpful for those who do not have local Audio representation.
Happy Listening! |
rojacob
Good to see you here again. Happy Listening! |
oblgny
Thank You for the kind words. I enjoy reading about your Audio journey from past to present date. Hope you are well and gearing up for the Fall season there in NY.
Happy Listening! |
