Thiel Owners

oblgny

PM sent. We will always be here for you. It has been a pleasure having your presence as a valuable member of the Panel. I learned quite a bit of Thiel Audio history plus sonically matched gear per your writings.
In  the short-term, you will be missed.

Happy Listening!

oblgny

As always, good to see you here my NY Brother.
Yes, the new (not better) rules,  for selling appears to be a point of contention. Hope Audiogon fixes this situation for the betterment of our Community.

PM sent.  
Happy Listening!

audiojan

Good to see you again. Thank You for the update. One will be hard-pressed to better the CS 2.4 loudspeaker.

Happy Listening!

With the CS2.4, when I listened to Pink Floyd Welcome to the Machine track on Wish You Were Here album, the initial sound affects of the track comes practically from the right wall right on my right side at my listening position. With my own speakers or from other brands, the affect comes also from the right wall but further up close to the speakers so it is not quite as spooky as with the CS. I also listened to them at a dealer with a more proper room treatment and the soundstage was even more real.

Hey kids,  just want to let you know that the payment options/rules for selling equipment here have changed with a suspiciously invasive set of requirements requiring a seller to declare him or herself a dealer or a merchant in order to complete a transaction. 

Because of this I am ending my membership in this otherwise excellent community. 

This thread and it’s contributors has been equally educating and just plain fun to follow. I wish you all the best this holiday season!

Jan - thanks for your comments. I am looking forward to including the 2.4s in my queue. They seem to be the audiophile darling in lots of ways, and I hope to calibrate how they stack up with the other models in my rotation. In particular my present work seeks to tame the consistently reported brash congestion with less than best recordings. That problem is not only the recording - the speaker can also be made to handle that situation better.

All - I'm looking forward to what 2020 will bring to these old Thiel classics. Merry Christmas

Put my Thiel CS2.4 back in rotation and wow! They are truly amazing speakers. In some regards, besting my Audio Physic Avanti 3.

I'm fortunate enough to have 2 pair of speakers of this caliber that I can swap in and out at will. Yes, a bit of work, but so worth it!

The Thiel's can disappear like no others when you give them the best recorded material. It's almost scary at times!

Had both a pair of svs pb 12 and sb12 on trial. Likely will end up keeping all of them.

Great Thread,
I had to downsize my B&W801S3.   I had heard Thiel years ago so I bought used Theil 2.2. I first noticed how musical they sounded over the B&W. So the B&W got sold.
Now my Vintage system is
Accuphase DP70 CD Player
Audioquest Columbia Unbalanced interconnect
Levinson 380S Preamp
Madrigal CZ Gel Balaanced Interconnect
Levinson 332 Amp
Audioquest Clear Speaker Cable
Thiel 2.2
Mirage Sub
Only the CD player has been recapped so far.

thielrules --
Which subs are you using, again?  Sorry--I'm sure you listed it in the thread, but it's a long thread!

Happy to report a noticeable improvement with the subs and the 3.7. The modes in the room have now been tamed resulting in more relaxed and balanced sound, more enveloping especially listening to orchestral pieces, and the speakers have now completely disappeared. Soundstage is now massive, much easier to listen to lower volume and get the full experience. Have the subs located halfway on each sidewall, 18 inches off the floor. 

Bud, Coors,  Heineken, Corona, Draft?

It's not the beers that made the man.  

Thanks Tom. Yes, I was thinking to use 2 sealed subs with the 3.5. 

@cascadesphil Nice, thanks for the information. I don't necessarily need that now but might be fun to play with at the price!

Just a thought. I suggest running the 3.5s wide open with no EQ. I remember the bass loading as critically damped, so it should approximate 12dB / octave. (But that's old memory) If you can match that rollout with a sub, the sub HF will operate in the directionality range, so 2 subs is better than 1. I for one am most in your progress.

I'm exploring adding woofers to my system. I have a large listening space, 30x30x20 ft where I have my 3.7 positioned. Have the svs sb12 and pb12 on trial. Have a second listening space of 22x16x12 where I have my 3.5. Tell me about your experience, placement, cut off setting and anything else. Thanks

An upgraded mic for an iPad is easy to use (and not expensive).  I do it all the time with REW -  https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-imm-6-calibrated-measurement-microphone-for-tablets-iphone-ipad-and-android--390-810

I also have a USB mic ( https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808) that I'll use with a PC.

@last_lemming My suggestion to use an iPad was not good in your case. The iPad mic is good from about 200-3k cycles but really drops off below 200, coinciding with your problem area. A better mic is called for if you want to measure in the region you think is amiss. It worked fine in my case because I only needed to detect relative, not absolute, differences.

Happy Friday! All

Bud, Coors,  Heineken, Corona, Draft?

Beats having nightmares

Something funny ...
I was having a few beers late last night then I found myself listening to a pair of beautiful CS7.2 in a large mansion no less ... then I woke up, no speakers, no mansion, no beef :-)  Maybe I should stop working on speakers for awhile.  

tomthiel,

Very interesting comments! Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the issues involved with the structures in front of the 2.2 tweeters. I didn't even notice that the center plate was actually a hex shape until you mentioned it.

I'm fascinated by your work on the sharp edges on the back of the structure, and I hope your mods will have sonic benefits.

I think I will hold off on attempting to epoxy the detached legs/prongs until you figure out what sort of contouring or edge-coating may be helpful on the structure. I also want to consult Rob before I do anything.

Thanks again for the great info! 

Sdl4 - this is the first time I've heard of one leg being disconnected. They all three should hold the center plug in place. If those tweeters were mine, I would repair them with aluminum filled epoxy. You might consult Rob before doing anything and see what he thinks.
That fore-structure performs multiple functions. It protects the fragile dome. It also spreads the on-axis energy for broader dispersion at the high end. It also acts something like a phase plug in that it retards the leading energy at the apex of the dome to average it with the circumferential energy closer to the surround. The hex shape of the center plate is engineered as superior to a round one.
Considerable effort went into developing that structure, so I find it interesting when various pundits recommend removing it. I suggest trusting Jim's work, those kinds of details represent the meticulous care he took in the design process.

What I am looking at is the sharp edges on the back side of the structure, both the 3 arms and the plug. We didn't address that level of detail in the 80s, but I wish we had, and I now am attending to unfinished business. I do not yet have confirming measurements (working on it), but I (believe that I) can hear improvement via contouring the edges of all members and coating with soft agents. Work in process.

tomthiel,

Your mention of your work on modifications on the faceplate surface for the CS 2.2 tweeter reminded me that the tweeters on my 1992 2.2 speakers have an anomaly that I've always wondered about. Many years ago, I noticed that the black metal frame protecting the face of the tweeter has a small gap where the top prong (of the 3 prongs) looks like it should attach to the round center piece of the structure. The tweeters are identical on both of my speakers, with only the top prong not connected to the center disc. The tweeters themselves have no dents or creases and they seem to work well.

What is the purpose of the black metal frame in front of the tweeters (protection, waveguide, something else?) and are all 3 prongs supposed to attach firmly to the center disc? I obviously haven't been too concerned about this issue since I've ignored it for years, but your explorations into reflections off the surface of the speaker got me thinking about other issues that might affect tweeter performance/vibration in some way.

Thanks for any insights you can provide.

Andy, what you call more natural maybe related to the lack of frequency dependent phase shift. Your mind will need measurements to make sense of this. Simulations are no substitute. Don't under estimate the skill of making accurate measurements, I'm still improving in that area.

gs5556

Good to see you again. Follow Tom's advice and consult Mr. Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service (CSS).  Keep us posted on your situation regarding the 3.6 loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

Andy2, glad to see that more people are getting familiar with options to have linear phase. The steepness of the slope had an impact on the pre ringing, as has the frequency of the filter.

Although I've always believed in first order filters, I was somewhat skeptical of the "time-phase coherence" part and was not sure if it does make a difference.  After converting two of my speakers xovers and making them "time-phase coherence", I am starting to become a firm believer in the advantage of "coherence".  I am not sure what my mind is saying, but my ears definitely are hearing a difference.

There is something in the sound that just more "natural".  I guess that's the best adjective I could use.  I would hesitate to use the word "better" though because people will have their own "belief", but I am comfortable with the word "natural".  

In my previous speaker design, although they also sound "natural", with "time-phase coherence", there is an extra "ease" as if the music "flows" better.  Since I work on my own speakers, I was able to compare two identical speakers (same cabinets, same drivers ...), one with and one is without "coherence", and I prefer the "coherence" version.    

Gs I owned a pair of 3.6s that I purchased new  in dec 92 I loved them!! last month I bought a pair of cs 7s (not the 7.2s) all I can tell you is if you can get a pair you won't be disappointed!!! They are like the 3.6s but  even better more detail more bass I hear things I never heard Before!!! They do exploit my equipment  upfront!! Just a thought FWI  

GS - you might call Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service about this matter. Tinsel leads do eventually fatigue, and Rob has replacement moving systems on hand. The little I know about ferrofluid is that there are many types and quantity is critical. I don't see advantage to preemptive repair. I'm still using mine from 1989 CS2.2 prototypes with thousands of hours on their odometer.

Let us know what  you might find out from Rob about FF replacement and other issues. 

I am presently working on that tweeter via faceplate surface and diffuser  modifications. That tweeter was Thiel's first ground-up design which was for the 1988 CS5 (with trickle-down to 2.2 and 3.6).

I have a pair of 3.6's that are now 25 years old (nothing I heard in all this time makes me want to retire them) and I am concerned about old age issues. Have any of you had problems with the drivers?  I am wondering if it is a good idea to take apart the tweeters and clean out and replace the ferrofluid. Or better yet, does anyone sell the rebuild guts?

Thanks

@last_lemming Do you have a way to measure SPLs, confirm your subjective impression? When I rebuilt my CS2.4 crossovers, I was able to compare the before and after frequency response using the SafeNoise app on my iPad and a tone glide.

BTW, not that I think this is your issue but have your tried a set-up with the speakers on the shorter wall? Either way, I suggest taking a look at the Cardas website for some placement ideas to try after you figure out your problem.

They are both moving a similar amount, about 1/16”

You can use the battery to gauge woofer movement. Are both channels moving similarly with the 6 volt signal?

Put your preamp in mono if you can.  Even if you can't, both woofers should be moving about the same amount.

Ok I tested polarity and everything is ok. 
Is it normal, even at say high 80’s dbs for the woofer to be barely moving?

Andy2, glad to see that more people are getting familiar with options to have linear phase. The steepness of the slope had an impact on the pre ringing, as has the frequency of the filter. As the goal is to keep the pre ringing inaudible, lower order XO are better, especially for the bass to mid XO. For the mid to tweet xo, the frequency range of the drivers and distortion may determine the preference for the XO order. As the timing can be measured and adjusted for each driver separately, the time coherence can be obtained at the listeners position easily. 

jazzman7

Thank You for the update.  Good to see you here.

Happy Listening!

@jazzman7, these just showed up in the last day or two.  These same goofballs are offering a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts for 4498.  I bought a pair of Mozart grands for <500 when Best Buy dropped the line a while back.  I realized how ridiculous the VA's were when I bought some Thiel 2 2s.  They're very mediocre.

they close forever on 12/21

It seems like I've made lots of mistakes using that word "forever".  

Concerning Audio Consultants:
I was just there on Friday. There is not much left, and what is left can now be had for 35% off. I don’t recall seeing a pair of 2.4s when last there, and I don’t think they have been bothering to keep the used list up to date, but if interested in something,  it certainly wouldn’t hurt to give them a call.  I also saw a number of demo items that are definitely not on the list.

jon_5912

Nice catch!  Hope those CS 2.4s find a good home.

Happy Listening!

pair of 2.4s at audio consultants until they close forever on 12/21.  They're listed at 1700 but I think the extra 25% off on the front page puts them at $1,275.  An obscene deal for what you're getting.  Makes me wish I needed more speakers.



http://audioconsultants.com/UsedEquipment.aspx

By the way, has anyone had a chance to listen to the "B&O" MS150?
https://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=868

It is a time-coherent design, or at least that is the claim made by B&O. I think B&O uses the term "Uni Phase" design, or basically it means to have zero phase shift and able to perform a proper step response, just like Thiel speakers. But instead of using first order filter as the Thiel’s, it uses LR2, or second order filters.

After been doing a bit research into "DSP option", it just happens that I may have found a mis-understanding, or may have been a false claim, with respect to time-coherent design.  I certain did make that myself in this thread.  

Apparently, I myself did say a few times in this thread that "time-coherent" design is only possible with first order filter.  But after doing some research into "DSP", it seems that a time-coherent design is possible for filter different type of filter, with different order such as 2nd, 3rd, or 4th and so on, NOT JUST with first order.

Now it's also a matter of definition as well.  If you want the strictest definition as possible, that is the only speaker that is qualified for "time-coherent" is first order filter then I guess there is nothing I can do about it, then if that is the definition, then only and only first order filter speaker can be called "time-coherent".

But my definition of "time-coherent" is a bit broader.  That is any speaker that have 0 phase shift and can perform a proper step response is qualified for "time-coherent" or "time-coincident".  If this is the case, then there are other classes of filter designs that are qualified as "time-coherent".

One example is "Bang and Olufsen" design, which uses LR2 (second order), that can perform a proper step response and has zero phase shift.  Here is a picture of it:  https://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=868

Not only that, but if you employ "DSP", then you can actually have higher order filter, which normally won't be able to achieve a proper step response, but you can introduce a "correction" factor in "DSP", that will make the overall speaker response to have 0 phase shift, proper step response and all.  

So now you can see that you have a situation where you have different types of speaker with different types of filtering topologies, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on, but all will have zero phase shift, proper step response, and and hence can be qualified as "time-coherent", which definitely will make things a bit complicated.  

So the question to ask is: is there any advantage of using "first order filter" at all?  Because we have seen that any filter order will be qualified for "time-coherent" and able to perform a proper step response.  Also another question to ask is: Are all "time-coherent" created equal?  Is one better than another?

JA - recovery was immediate, since re-entry does not say no. I wish I had more time with Rob, but our schedules only overlapped by a couple of hours. We're on firm ground with mutual goals. The trip also included other contacts and prospects. Getting away is good for perspective. Happy Holidays.

tomthiel
Hope you are well and recovering from your recent trip visiting Rob in KY.Tough time of year for traveling safely.  Good to see you as always.
Happy Listening!

last_lemming
Nice! system. Interesting combination of Cardas/PAD cabling. Agree with Tom's assessment and suggested testing polarity. Does the B.A.T. pre-amp reverse polarity? The CS 2.4 loudspeaker is balanced Bass to Treble, Treble to Bass without any mid-bass fall out.  Hope the culprit is diagnosed soon. Good to see you again.

Happy Listening!

Nice room dimensions.
Don't switch anything until you know if there is a polarity problem.Disconnect the cables at the power amp. Connect 6V battery - minus to black wire and touch + plus to red wire. The coax and woofer should both move out. Repeat on other speaker.

Your symptoms could be created by 1 woofer being polarity reversed.