Thiel Owners

tmsrg 
I should apologize for being cheeky and for my faulty memory .

The music goes on .

Rob

arvincastro & rascs4 & tmsrdg,

vair68rober'ts post on 02/18/2020 @ 10:07 is Not quite right, actually, not right at all. I do asume that I was the friend who had Sectral's amp and preamp for 10 years.

I was a Spectral owner for 20 years, not 10 years. I also, never had an issue with my Spectral gear in that entire 20 years. Rob should know better, since I met him and have known him since October of 1971.

He has become a wannabe, that gets his info from the web, reviews of others and apparently faulty memory.

In 2016, I decided to totally revamp my entire system. 2 new TTs, new Pass lab electronics, New speakers, which I just got at Christmas 2019, ( Wilson Yvettes.) My Avalon Opus were 14 years old.

My Spectral gear, held its value very well. I bought most of it used and bargained hard for the prices that I paid for it and though it took me 2+ years to sell the entire system to one (1) guy, I only lost $1800.00 on the entire Spectral / MIT system. 

My Avalon Opus went with the Wilson Yvettes that I just bought.

So, arvincastro, rascs4, tmsrdg; If you really want accurate info from a longtime Spectral owner / user; you can feel free to PM me. If we need to exchange phone numbers and talk, we can do that too.

                                                 

arvincastro

Good to see you again. ARC is well represented in this thread. Several satisfied fans/owners are here.

Happy Listening!

rascs

Thank You for citing your full Spectral system. I am certain that a few queries about the brand are headed your way.

Happy Listening!

@rasc

Thanks for the detailed and timely response. There are many reasons I'd like to try Spectral, but I've gone without a preamp for quite a while now (only way to go at least for me) and don't know if I could keep that up with only a Spectral amp in the line. The line, FYI, is Aurender N10 > Berkeley Alpha DAC > Classe 300 >Thiel 3.7. Any comments on whether I would really need the Spectral preamp are greatly appreciated!

@  tmsrdg
Hello sir, 
Yes, I have a full Spectral ensemble with all the appropriate interconnects and speaker cables. I lived overseas for a number of years and have just recently gotten back into this hobby. The house is starting to look like an audio museum. I have 2 preamps from Spectral, both of them older- a DMC20 II and DMC 30s. I also have 3 amps- the DMA 180 II and the compact amps- DMA 90 and DMA100s. I am sure they DMA180 would drive your CS3.7s- it sounds great on my 2.3s and even the CS5is. I have a Classe CA2300 and I prefer the Spectral.

I keep the the DMC20 II for its phono section. My current cartridge is .18mv output and the 202 phono board for the preamp is quiet enough to thoroughly enjoy.

Spectral strongly recommends using a Spectral amplifier with their preamplifiers but you can safely use their preamplifier with any amp. The amps are very wide-bandwidth (the DMA 180 is -3dB at 1.8 megahertz) and are said to be unstable with preamps not as wide-band and cables that do not provide a soft rolloff at extreme frequencies (MIT). This and that they are designed and voiced with MIT cables is the reason for the mandate. 

Unlike @ vair68robert's friend's experience, Spectral components, new or used, seem to me to be a particularly good value considering their build and parts quality. They tend to hold their value reasonably well and in my experience they are very reliable. I have never had to send back any of my equipment for service. I did replace the bulbs in the logo of my DMA180, but I did this at my own risk. I am not sure what issues your friend had if he had appropriate Spectral branded MIT or better, upgrading cables should not be to fix problems but to improve an already stable system. 

Thanks, regards and happy listening :)

I, too, am interested to hear more about the Spectral-Thiel experience...really, more about Spectral period! Have to admit, Spectral was a brand I knew nothing about until I jumped back into the hobby full force about 4 years ago. Since then, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a brand with such reverence from both owners and non-owners. Definitely a brand I hope to audition some day...

tmsrdg

I had a friend who had Spectral's amp and preamp for 10 years ,
they mandate M.I.T. cabling , every time he had an issue 
they recomended upgrading the cables !
So be preparired to spend , spend and then spend some more .                                                              

@ rascs
Finally, someone with Spectral/Thiel! I'm currently on the "mid-burner" spectrum to upgrade my Classe 300 amp that I use with my 3.7s. Tell us,is that a full Spectral ensemble, or just the amp, or what?  Thanks!

I got the CS1.5s a few months after they were introduced. It has more bass than it has a right to have, it is small and easy relatively to set up. They seem to forgive not having exotic electronics/cables but will resolve any upgrade you make. The replacement CS1.6 did transients better and were more dramatic to listen to (new woofer design and increased sensitivity maybe) but I think the 1.5s are exceptional with both male and female voices. In my rooms and systems the soundstage with the 1.5 always starts just behind the speaker which tends to draw me into the recordings.

As I understand is that the Thiel 1.5 was/is quite a good speaker.

Hello fellow Thiel owners!

Just wanted to give you all an update on my system: today, I was finally able to secure a second ARC D240 MKII ss amp to go with my current one.  As an added plus, I bought it locally from a fellow Thiel owner (he has mint CS 5i's in one of his systems...gorgeous speakers that sounded even better) and was able to spend time with him listening to some jazz and talking about our great hobby.

Running these amps in bridged mode will give each of my CS 3.5's 480 watts @ 8 ohms.  Mated to my tube ARC LS7 line-stage and tube ARC PH3 phono preamp, I'm feeling that I have a system that I can finally be satisfied with from both power and sonic standpoints.

Unfortunately, will have to wait for the weekend before I can listen to my system in "monoblock" configuration as business travel calls, but will definitely let you guys know how it goes once it's all setup and running.

Finally, to contribute to the cable discussion, I'm using Audioquest Golden Gate RCA for all my source interconnects, MIT Terminator 2 RCA interconnects from my LS7 to the Thiel 3.5 Bass Equalizer and to the amps.  Speaker wires are MIT AVT-3.

Thanks and hope you are all doing well!

Arvin C

Thanks for your welcome jafant, 

I currently have 3 Thiel systems, my main 2 channel system, a home theater system and a small home recording system. I have had a lot of things pass through the systems here. From Thiel- 1.5, 2.3, SCS3, 3.6. I have had Adcom, McCormack, Ayre, Krell, Classe, Sonic Frontiers, ARC and Spectral. As a source I use primarily a ClearAudio turntable with Lyra cartridge. I haven't heard anything more transparent, dynamic, resolving and ultimately musical than Spectral. It just sounds harmonically correct. Every recording sounds different and the imaging and soundstaging are spectacular. Having Spectral mandates a use of MIT cables (my amps came with warning stickers sealing the bag.) I take some comfort in knowing which cables were used in the design of the electronics. I have a number of ASC tubetraps in my listening room and I listen on the short dimension of the room to maximize the distance from the speakers to sidewalls. 

In my opinion, Thiels have a/n (unfair) reputation of being lively (kindly) in the upper octaves or bright. When I have heard systems that sound bright, the speakers are usually too close to untreated side walls, too close together or toed-in too far. I find that ideally they need at least 5 feet from the outside of the cabinet to the nearest wall, slightly wider placement than an equilateral triangle with minimal toe-in. This, in my system, allows for the tonality of instruments to be same whether they are panned left or right or in the center of the soundstage. It also seems to help with eliminate the soundstage curving in or out in the center as the sound passes from left to right (etc.) Some distance from the listening position to the speakers is needed for the drivers to sound cohesive- with the 2.3s over 9' seems to work well. I am sure all of you have as much or more experience setting up your speakers, this is just a personal observation.

During my recent downtime with my 2.3 coaxes off to Rob, I pulled a pair of 1.5s into the main system. I had forgotten how good those can be. 

After leaving my desk at Thiel, I wanted to show them some appreciation to the folks on Nandino Blvd for my time there. I ordered my 2.3s with the specification that they were to be in birdseye maple and stained a "fun" color. They sent some samples and I chose a bright red finish. I will never sell them.

Thanks again for your welcome to the forum :)

@jafant 

I ran Neutral Reference when I had the CS1.6. Now using Golden Reference. All purchased used - those things are $$$

My AX-5 is “J” production series. To my knowledge, any later production has no sonic improvements. 

brayeagle

Good to see you here as always. Thank You for citing Blue Jeans/Belden cabling in your system.

Happy Listening!

sdl4

Laughing...

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

Which level/models of Cardas are you using in your system?
What year (of manufacture) was your AX-5 Twenty built ?

Happy Listening!

Prof's comment above got me thinking about another "wings" related quote from "It's a Wonderful Life." Clarence's note to George in the final scene in the movie went something like this:

Dear George:
Remember no man is a failure who has friends and expensive speaker cables.
Thanks for the wings.
Love, Clarence

 

stspur

Welcome! It is great to have another professional musician here.
Thank You for citing Tara Labs as a sonic match to your 3.6 loudspeakers.  ARC electronics are very nice compliments as well.
I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

rascs1

Welcome!  Good to see you here. Thank You for sharing your customer service experience with Mr. Rob Gillum.
I look forward in reading more about you and your system around those CS 2.3 loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

Cables, real or placebo? IDK, but I do know that I’ve repeatedly experienced better sound, especially with speaker cables and ICs, not so much with power cords or USB cable. Oh, and with the hookup wire in my CS2.4 mod. I’m a fan of Cardas products but haven’t heard the latest “Clear” line. 
Sounds better to my ears and it bothers me not whether you agree of disagree. 

Some cable measurements such as capacitance can be quite helpful for determining suitability in a given system.

jafant said it best !

" The ear/brain, is the only measurement tool for cable/cord assessment and evaluation. "

Every time an audiophile says this, an expensive cable salesman gets his pair of wings. ;-)

Hello all,

Just wanted to chime in my 2 cents worth on a recent service issue. I recently had an issue with the coax drivers in my lightly modified CS 2.3s. There was a very low level buzz coming from one of the drivers when listening to the top 1/3 of the piano on well recorded discs. 

I removed both drivers and sent them to Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service (859-554-9790.) Rob rebuilt both drivers and returned them promptly. He also emailed me with his detailed findings. The replacement drivers looked completely new, were well packed and included high quality solder. 

I was fortunate to have worked with Rob at Thiel during the development of the CS6, prototypes of the CS7.2 tweeter and CS2.3 coax driver. Many of us on this forum will remember the world class customer service of Thiel in their Lexington years and I feel fortunate to have Rob around as excellent resource and gentleman.

Thanks, 
Michael 

CABLES !?!?

I used BJCs interconnects and speaker cable with my Carver/Image
system 12 years ago , moved up to Cardas Quad Link and now
am using Cardas Neutral Reference .
I am XXXtremely envious of audiojan being able to use
Cardas Clear Beyond spaker cables but like sdl4 the cost prohibits me from thinking about them , but not dreaming about them .
I couldn't twist my own arm to jump on purchasing Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables offered at 50% off of list .

So I asked Thiel owners about experience with Tara Labs
and what speaker cables owners of CS2.7s and CS3.7s are using .
I then started trying to research cables trying to find some kind 
of quantitative measurements to help make a decision .
I've kinda decided to make my own using Cardas 9.5awg
and their silver rodium spades making seperate runs for + and - .

jafant said it best !

" The ear/brain, is the only measurement tool for cable/cord assessment and evaluation. " 

Thank You Thiel Owners




 

Hi Thiel 'Goners.  Just thought I would chime back in after a reading the new thoughts about cables.  I have been running my 3.6s, via ARC LS 26 pre  and ARC DS 450Ms monoblocks, with a limited number of speaker cable options starting with BJC Beldons.  I was just starting out a couple of years ago with this component match and discovered a new pair of Tara Labs TL 2/14 for a reasonable price on Amazon: $300 for 6ft pair (no longer available).  Once installed I noticed quite a bit more warmth, bass girth, and less treble fatigue than the BJCs.  I am a concert violinist by profession so treble resolution and general overall warmth are important to my ears.  Later on last year, after consulting with the Cable Company, I was encouraged to try some Tara Prime RSC 2s however they were beyond my price point at the time: about $700.  My recent compromise purchase this year was a pair of gently used Tara 8 ft Vector 1 RSCs: luckily found on A'gon for $375.  These are much larger, separated cables and I can't  believe what a difference even from the TL 2/14s!  Imaging, definition, soundstage, dynamic range, and timing have all been enhanced all without sacrificing warmth.  I  have also had Tara Vector 1 and Prime interconnects throughout my rig for some time now and absolutely love the sound!

Happy Friday! All

cascadesphil
Thank You for citing your pre/power combination. On other Audio forums, ModWright is a favorite amongst Thiel speaker owners.Dan builds beautifully sounding gear.

Happy Listening!

sdl4
Second - going with separates, choose a tubed pre-amp and solid state power amp.  Aesthetix, ARC, B.A.T., Conrad Johnson and ModWright are the front-runners for consideration.  Have fun!
Happy Listening!

yabe1951
I will second the ARC Ref3 pre-amp. I, too, had the pleasure of meeting Don Hoatson (R.I.P.) of The Listening Room back in 2012. A very fine Gentleman of Audio.

I found the sound quality of his rooms outstanding from a minimalist approach. Entry level Straightwire cabling and hardly any room treatment(s).  At that time his space was in a medical plaza.
Happy Listening!

audiojan
Good to see you here.  Several reviewers of the Audio press still list the Cardas Golden Reference as an interconnect preference.
Most will concur about the Clear/ Beyond being much better speaker cables.

Happy Listening!

yabe1951
Good to see you gain. Yes, the Kimber Kable Monocle XL is suggested by Taylor of Goldprint Audio in NC. He was a Thiel Audio dealer and remains a Kimber dealer to date.
Happy Listening!

I use a Modwright LS36.5 DM tube preamp and an EVS 1200 Amp (discussed here -  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/life-with-ric-schultz-2200-highly-tweaked-evs-1200-class-d-icepower-d) with my 3.7s

yabe1951,

I've heard several other people recommend using a tube preamp with a SS power amp to drive Thiel speakers. The last time I seriously listened to any tube gear was many years ago, and I came away liking the liquid midrange but disliking the flabby low end I heard in my demo. I also did not like the idea of having to change tubes and deal with sonic changes as the tubes aged. However, maybe it's time to give a modern tube preamp a chance to impress me.

audiojan,

I'd love to hear those Clear Beyond speaker cables in my system, but they are just too expensive for me to seriously consider. I have a pretty long speaker cable run (7-meter pair) in my 2-channel system, and the list price for a pair of the Clear Beyonds would be $21,470. I paid around $400 for the Straight Wire Encore cables I've used for several decades, so I can't wrap my head around the idea of paying thousands of dollars more to replace the Encores. I could afford the Cardas Parsec speaker wires (at $1575 per 7m pair), but I'd be reluctant to spend more than that, especially without any assurance that they would sound better than my current Straight Wire cables.

I did some in-home testing of moderately priced interconnects last year and ended up liking the Cardas Parsec (in a 1-meter length) better than the Shunyata Venom or similarly priced interconnects from Synergistic Research. I'd be inclined to try a similar speaker cable shoot-out in my system if I could try several samples of wire that were long enough to demo without having to move my amps and source equipment out of their cabinets and across the room.

I'm glad you found some cables that have taken your speakers to a new level.

The best cables I've ever used are my Cardas Clear Beyond speaker cables. Yes, expensive, but the difference from Golden Reference was staggering. Took the speakers to a new level.

May I chime in with pairing that has worked well for me? My Thiel 3.6 set is driven by a modified McCormack DNA 1 with Kimber Monocle XL cable. Last year, I replaced my ARC LS 9 with the an ARC Reference 3. I purchased all of my gear used a piece at time over many years which is the only way I could come close to affording any of it. Don Hoatson (since passed, RIP) of the Listening Room in Baltimore always suggest that Thiels are well served by running a SS amp (Classe, Pass Labs, McCormack are reasonable choices purchased used) and a tube preamp to add a touch of warmth and sweetness. Don may have heard this from Kathy Gornik. I was never sure that this was not just sales hype, but now, finally, I know better. The rubric of using Thiel+SS amp+tube pre=joy is real from my experience. The upgrade for me of the LS9 to Ref 3 was pure magic with Thiels. Heard much on recording that I have never heard before with a wonderful spatial
context and refinement. 

No - actually I have Zenwave audio for most of the power cords on the essential stuff like amp, preamp, DAC, Music Server in the main system.  I have a Teo Audio balanced cable between the music server and the preamp and an NBS balanced cable between the preamp and amp.  I have some WyWires power cords in secondary systems and most of the RCA cables are homemade from Neotech silver/gold wire.

sdl4

Thank You for the clarification on Belden/Canare.
I am certain that the Cable manufacturing is no different than Electronics manufacturing involving cutting the proverbial corner(s).
I also believe that any Audio manufacturer should act in a forthcoming manner regarding origins of raw materials (china).

I do ask this pertinent information whenever visiting dealers/retailers.

Happy Listening!

jafant,

Blue Jeans sells two brands of speaker wire: several versions of Belden cable and the Canare 4S11, which is what I use to feed my PowerPoint 1.2 speakers in my HT system. The 4S11 is a "star quad" design with four 14-gauge conductors that can be used for bi-wiring or with the four wires combined into two wires, which is then equivalent to a pair of 11-gauge wires. The 4S11 is good for long runs and can be purchased in bulk, which is what I did. I've heard stories that some cable companies would buy 4S11 in bulk and then dress it up with thick mesh coverings and fancy looking connectors so that it could be sold at dramatically higher prices. I don't know if that story is true, but it sounds like something an unethical cable maker might do.

prof

I concur with Thiel Audio being a well-designed loudspeaker, not requiring an exotic cable,  for performance. The ear/brain,  is the only measurement tool for cable/cord assessment and evaluation. 
Have fun auditioning those new cables with your friend. I would be interested in reading about the brand/model(s) tested.

Happy Listening!

sdl4

Good to see you here. Belden/Blue Jeans cables are quite popular.
I have not auditioned either brand. I am not familiar with Canare.

Happy Listening!

cascadesphil

Thank You for the follow up. Are you using a full loom of WyWires?

Happy Listening!

" Thank You for citing WyWires. Which model(s) have you owned / tried?"

I currently have the Platinum (speaker cables).  I had an older (WyWires) pair (when the company was first started) from an older series for a bit and some home made things along the way as well.

I always enjoy reading what Prof has to say, even though I don't agree with everything he has to say about audio cables. Like Prof, though, my views are not at either extreme in the cable wars because I can't afford to buy super-expensive cables and I don't think that we've figured out the right things to measure in order to be able to rely on measurements alone to know how audio equipments sounds. So I'm not either a price-no-object audiophile or a pure "objectivist." 

I currently have Canare speaker wire (which I terminated myself) connected to my five Thiel PowerPoints in my basement HT system, and I use a range of Belden interconnects with that system. The sound I get with tv and movies in my HT system is very clear and listenable, and I have no burning desire to replace what I have with more expensive cables. However, I have tried a range of cheap to moderately priced cables in my 2-channel system in my living room, and I have had to go slightly beyond my usual "BlueJeans budget" to be happy with the sound from my PS Audio amps and Thiel 2.2 speakers. I'm currently using moderately priced Straight Wire speaker cable and Cardas interconnects.

I respect that Prof has actually listened to many expensive cables and likes his Thiels with Belden wire from BlueJeans cable "better" than may high-priced systems. What that tells me is that he actually hears some differences between systems with different cables, though I don't know if he's tried some of those expensive wires with his own Thiels. Regardless, I'm completely fine with his willingness to use his own ears and reasoned judgment to decide what cables to use with his system. 

Here's where my perspective is a little different. Prof suggests that he prefers using his "neutral-performance" BlueJeans cable rather than searching for cables to function as tone controls, but I take the view that every cable functions as a tone control in some way. Belden cables are certainly not immune to having that issue, and I would not regard them as any more neutral than more expensive cables.

Interestingly, BlueJeans Cable has recently started to offer the Iconoclast line of cables, which has been designed by a now-retired Belden engineer who believed that he could improve on the stock Belden speaker wire and interconnects by making cables that both measured and sounded better. Belden is now making these cables, although the challenges of building the new designs make the cables more expensive. I have not heard them yet in my system, but I hope to at some point to see if they are worth the extra cost for me. It's interesting that even Belden engineers think that their cables can be improved upon.

In my experience, cables can sound different - even when tested blindly - but different is not always better, and system synergy and personal preference play a large role in making cable choices.  

Brayeagle.

*bro fist*

Not many of us here;-)

It's not like I'm unfamiliar with having "heard" high end cables.  I used to review audio gear for a while and have well-placed pals in the high end audio reviewing business, so I have for years been hearing systems, swapping cables with top of the line cabling (literally, sometimes my pal's system is running up to 50 or 60 grand just for the cables and power conditioners!  He's getting a big new haul of cables in again so I'll hear the system again with new cables soon).  I've heard speakers I own with cables that I almost guarantee are higher in the bleeding edge of price than anyone in this thread is likely using (think top of the line Nordost, Crystal Cable and others).  So, my own view is not due to lack of experience in the subject :-)

But...I would never tell someone else how to spend their own money.  If someone gets a buzz from trying out various cables, enjoy life!

(There's another "extreme"for me which is those "objectivists" who dismiss so much in high end audio that they pride themselves in purchasing the cheapest possible equipment, speakers, amps etc.  That approach doesn't appeal to me either, not for the "saving money" aspect which is fine, but for the way it dismisses so many interesting designs available in high end audio).

cascadesphil

Thank You for citing WyWires.  Which model(s) have you owned / tried?

Happy Listening!

vair68robert

Nice catch!  To my ears, Cabling, is the last frontier. Too many options, too little time to discover.  Have fun!

Happy Listening!

Once more, I must agree with prof.
I had several speakers before ending up with a pair of 3.5s and then 2.7s.
I use BlueJeans Cables for my speakers, made from AWG 10 Belden stock, with superb terminal connections  - - spades and banana plugs. I've never been unhappy with using BlueJeans cables, both for the speakers and for interconnects. As a plus, saving money on esoteric cables has permitted me to upgrade my electronics and acquire additional CDs for my collection.  (Disclaimer: I do NOT have deep pockets, and disposable income has to be allocated to items that will make very clear and unmistakeable significant improvements in my listening environment. 

I love to listen to my music, from start to finish, and not be on the edge of my seat, listening for someone in the second violins to miss a beat. 

Just my thoughts, after having spent more time with this wonderful hobby than most.   My points of reference by which I judge my system are the Vienna Philharmonic in the Great hall of the Musikverein playing Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler and Strauss, plus the Orchestra and  Chorus of the La Scala in operas by Puccini and Verdi.  Over a period of twenty years,  I've been fortunate to hear (and see)  symphonic performances and operas in these venues.

vair68robert
Recommended as Thiel compatible .

I guess that I will try to look at Thiel owners of 2.7 and 3.7 speakers ,
since it seems that Cable compatabilty is dependent on the speaker model ( with the the amp powering ) .

Or you can get some cables that are confirmed as built to well known standards for audio signal transmission, and used by the pros, but which are sold for usually much less than those hawked in the audiophile world.

Examples like Canare, Belden (which are available for instance from BlueJeans cable).   If a speaker is not "compatible" with standard, competently, neutral-performance cable, then it's a defective design.

Fortunately Thiel speakers are well designed and don't need anything exotic to do their job.

I've used Beldon speaker cables for my Thiel 3.7 and 2.7 and it "just works."  That combo sounded better than most speakers I auditioned that were hooked up to gazillion-dollar cabling because the Thiel speakers are that well designed, and a competently designed "everyday" cable allows them to sing, rather than trying to find cables to act as tone controls.

Anyway...just another view for you to consider :-)....you'll get a lot more people suggesting you go about playing the "specialized cable lottery" and if you find that fun and have the pocket change for it, go wild!
(Back to our regular Thiel talk...)