Rob - try me at tom thiel at sign worldpath dot net.
Tom
|
@tomthiel
Thank you for contacting R.G., I've called a couple of times without an answer and no I haven't received your e-mail ( darn it ) .
Please tell us more about your wire experiments .
@beetlemania
Thanks for the idea about replacing the 25 watt resistors .
I will be using Mills resistors , replacing the ERSE caps
with Clarity CSAs and one CMR and am concidering the 68uf Topmay caps with Clarity CSAs .
I have decided to use Cardas 17.5 awg chassis wire for speaker connections while increasing to 15.5 awg to the crossover boards .
I have been inventoring and pricing the parts ( that I can see the values ).
I took out the Mid/tweeters ( and seperated the wires ) and one woofer
to see how easy or difficult it would be .
And have you made your finial determination about speaker cable connecting ?
@jafant
I understand the idea of keeping it stock because of it's uniqueness ,
but since I started looking into the quality of the componets I want to improve what I have , besides I think there are 8 other pairs out there .
|
unsound
Geared toward home theater or 5/7.1 audio systems- Yes.
Happy Listening!
|
beetlemania
Modding unique (only) -yes.
I would keep that particular pair (stock unique).
Happy Listening!
|
I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique Swapping that multistrand for Cardas would also be unique, no? |
^Geared for the home theatre crowd. |
unsound
I have heard many PP owners report that this speaker was made for a challenging/difficult room or space. Keep us posted on your project.
Happy Listening!
|
tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up on Rob Gillum. Good to read that he is well and (hopefully) working during this down cycle.
Happy Listening!
|
vair68robert
I would consider keeping your CS 2.7 loudspeakers as is, experimental/unique. It would be interesting to learn if there are other Nashville models that exhibit the same wiring configuration?
Happy Listening!
|
tomthiel
Thank You for posting pics in Virtual Systems. Very cool !
Happy Listening!
|
vair68robert
We contact each other by personal email/phone outside of Audiogon's personal message (PM) system.
A'gon's system can act tricky at times. It helps to spell out the words to your personal email address and/or phone number.
Hope this is helpful.
Happy Listening!
|
Rob - I suspect that the only substantive difference between your 2.7 XOs and KYXOs is the wire. There may be small component value differences to compensate for the wire. Rob G. says all the 2.7s were built in Lex under his supervision. So your Tennessee Thiel's seem to be experimental. Let me know if you got the private email I sent to you.
|
Question: What was the outcome of the electrical drain off the driver baskets. Awhile ago someone (Thieleste?) did a comparison. All comments welcome.
Background: I am working on thermal stabilization and that might interface with electrical draining if it is beneficial.
ThanksTom
|
@vair68robert
Looks like at least one 25W resistor on each board. That 2 Ohm on the coax board could be replaced with parallel 4 ohm Mills MRA-12s. That would yield a 24W rating. Close enough, I think. The CS2.4 has a 30 ohm resistor on its coax board. Tom had me use parallel 60 ohm for more surface area and improved thermal management. I bought mine from Sonic Craft. Had to mix and match from the older Mills and newer Vishay Mills to get the proper values at each position. Mine are all 12W versions, OEM sandcasts were 10W, so I gained a spot of headroom.
|
I suggest checking with Rob G re spare parts . |
@tomthiel, speakers must be placed on built in shelf.
|
Beetle and Rob - I got an answer from RG that all pre-sale (2013) CS2.7s were made in Lexington, with PtP, parts like Rob's, etc. but with standard 18 solid twist hookup wire. We think this pair was a trial at New Thiel and we're investigating whether any parts values were changed to accommodate the different wire configuration.
|
Unsound - Problematic rooms and PowerPoint 1.2s seem to be made for each other.
|
@beetlemania
Thank you for the compliment ,.
It was the wiring and my attempt to advise other 2.7 owners about a tweek ( seperating the wires ) that Tom informed me that I own
FrankenThiel speakers !
My next project will be to replace the wires , first I would like to
replace/ upgrade and increase awg to the crossover boards .
But it looks like I would have to disassemble the speaker ,
so I would also replace/upgrade the wires to the speakers ,
that is where I am at a crossroad ( with plenty of time to think about it ) ,
to use Cardas 18.5 awg to all the speakers , to increase that to 15.5
or to have 3 different gauges like you've done .
Resistors might be next , depending on how difficult the wiring project turns out to be .
Mills does not manufacture 25 watt resistors , so only the 10 watt
ones can be replaced by Mills .
I am really suprised to here that you see that the parts quality
is higher that your OEM 2.4SE !
But very happy about it .
It would be great to be able to see Kentucky crossovers and compare them to my Tennessee crossovers , maybe the only difference are the wires .
Rob
|
@vair68robert Thanks for posting pics of your CS2.7 crossovers. Fascinating to see that compared to my FST (China)-sourced boards that were OEM in my CS2.4SE. Yours are point-to-point on Masonite compared to my PCB (@tomthiel says PTP was the Thiel protocol for most of the company's history). Also, your parts quality is definitely higher than my OEM boards. Other than the excellent Clarity SAs on the coax feeds, I had CYC MKT (polyester!) caps, loosely wound coils, and unlabeled resistors. But I was probably most surprised to see that multi-strand hookup wire on your boards (reminds me of what I used for speaker cabling when I had a mid-fi system). My OEM hookup wire was solid core (18 ga) the + and - wound to 3 twists per inch. Tom told me that was the Thiel standard. Your boards seem to be a quasi Frankenstein of classic and new Thiel (mostly in a good way!). I wonder if yours are typical of all CS2.7.
But my Tom Thiel-designed boards are a whole 'nuther level! If you're inclined, you might play with upgrading the parts quality on your boards. An easy and affordable place to start is to replace those sandcast resistors with Mills MRAs. I replaced all of my resistors for about $100 - that was my first upgrade before the full rebuild.
|
@tomthiel, Thanks! Looking to help a dear friend set up a system in a rather problematic room.
|
Virtual system - I posted some photos of my unique setup.
|
Unsound - the SCSs seem fairly invisible here. My slight experience might help a little. The SCS is essentially a grown-up O2 - 6.5" ported two-way with polarity correct second order crossovers. They produce a decent step response and frequency response and can handle more power more easily than first order XOs. The SCS designation began with Thiel's first coincident / concentric driver in 1989. The specs and general performance of any generation will be similar with more modern iterations having more serious driver technologies and improved port loading, with more sophisticated performance.
I have 3 pair of O2s and a single SCS4. Side by side, the SCS4 has greater detail and nuance, but its overall musical impression is fairly similar to the O2 from 1976. As models progressed, the ports migrated from single to dual to rounded outlet to flared horn outlet which gradually reduced port air velocity and chuffing, creating better room coupling.
The ear-brain does an interesting thing with the fundamental frequencies. Any distortion there serves to slur the upper harmonics - the auditory brain interprets all sound from the bottom up. I am working with a very exciting technology, modeled on shark skin, that organizes the wave launch from the port, thereby cleaning up the entire spectrum to an unexpected degree. Not ready to show, but will upgrade any ported speaker, including Thiel O2, O4, SCS (all), CS1, 1.2, 1.6 and CS2. Stay tuned.
FYI: I picked up a single SCS4 for a couple hundred bucks and looking for another one to make a pair.
|
jafant
I beleive Tom was stearing me to you about setting up the virtual system page .
Thank you for the positive praise .
Can you advise or help us to contact each other outside of Audiogon ,
I am not an insider .
Rob |
tomthiel
how is progress with Virtual System going?
Happy Listening!
|
What is the value sweet spot generation for used THIEL SCS’s?
|
|
tomthiel
PM sent. Happy Listening!
|
vair68robert
A very clean, nice looking room and system on your Virtual page.
Well done.
Happy Listening!
|
tomthiel
directions to Virtual System set-up;
Click on your avatar/pic above this post.
Click on marketplace feedback (gray box) under your profile page.
Click on Explore (top of webpage-yellow banner under the word Audiogon.
Click on Virtual Systems -center page white/gray speaker image.
Click on Create System - again yellow banner top page under the word Audiogon.
I am sure there is another way or two, this is how I set mine.
Off duty tonight. PM me for assistance and have fun!
Happy Listening!
|
vair68robert
Thank You for the additional information on your unique CS 2.7 loudspeakers. Being in Oregon, you are not too far from beetle as opposed to Tom in the northeast and me in the deep South.
Happy Listening!
|
Tom
I posted my e-mail address on page 155 ,
I'm not an insider so if e-mailed I can send pictures . |
Rob - JAFant or others here know how to create a virtual system page for all to share. I'll PM you to try to connect behind the curtain.
|
Tom , jafant and all Thiel owners .
I just created a virtual system for all to see and comment on .
Tom how can I get pictures to you ?
|
Robert - you might be right about assembly. Rob G. said that all 2.7s were built in Lexington, but he was not in the Tennessee loop after they moved. The brands you state are Classic Thiel brands, except Topmay, which I don't recognize (but I'm not in the loop either.) The inductors are most probably Thiel inductors. Thiel bought quantity high purity wire and made small inductors in house and farmed larger values out to custom winders including ERSE who bought long-term supplier AcoustaCoil.
Can you please describe your internal wiring scheme? I'm curious what they tried, and also if they made any component value adjustments to compensate. Good pix of your XOs and/or values for me to compare with the stock schematic would be helpful. But, only if you are diving in anyhow.
|
Thaks Tom
I didn't want to speculate until I was able to talk with R.G. ,
I was thinking that somehow the last speakers being assembled
were shipped to " ThielAudio " in Tennessee unassembled and they were using this wire for thier new line of speakers .
There were 9 2.7s and 9 1.7s sold by them on E-bay .
I live in Eugene Oregon so comparing them would be great if there are any 2.7 owners around .
I would love to exchange pictures of the crossovers or at least see what they look like having come from Kentucky .
Mine have Erse , Topmay and Clarity caps including one made for Thiel ,
with Erse and Xicon resistors ,
I can't see who makes the inductors .
While I have been second guessing myself on re-wiring the speakers ,
this uniqueness or oddity might give me the incentive to go ahead with the project .
jafant
When I was looking to replace my Carver M1.0t
Arye and Pass labs were considered but still way over my budget
even in the used market , maybe someday.
|
Robert - oops, I forgot where you got them. Nonetheless, they are unique, and were modded after New Thiel went to Nashville. I can speculate that New Thiel was experimenting with different internal wiring. I know they were experimenting with ultra-caps, etc. I wonder if your 2.7s have better than stock XO parts.
Dennis Crossen, the development engineer, was quite experienced and talented. I suspect that whatever you have has merit. Considering my present exploration of wire configurations, I certainly would love to learn how your 2.7s compare to stock. Can you arrange a comparison and give us a report?
|
tomthiel
Thank You for the wiring update. Looking forward in reading about impressions and thoughts from testing samples.
Have fun!
Happy Listening!
|
vair68robert
Thank You for the update attempting to connect w/ Rob.
Perhaps you have a unique pair of CS 2.7 loudspeakers?
Very cool.
Upon connecting w/ Rob, give him our best from this forum/thread.
Happy Listening!
|
Thanks Tom
Rob hasn't gotten back to me , I'll try calling him tomorrow and see if I can send him pictures .
As for someone's hot rod ? I purchased them thru Rob but they were sent from Tennessee ! Something is fishy .
|
Hey wire nuts - I've gone down a rabbit hole with Steven Hill about wire configurations, pros and cons and theoretical considerations that are way above my pay grade. I'm testing samples and configurations that he sends.
Also, I have developed some observations about the normal vs parallel runs using my OCOS and Morrow wire. I'll chime in after Beetle shares his experience with us.
And - someone here reported his 2.7s as having straight (non twisted) internal wire. I checked with Rob who said that all the 2.7s (all classic Thiels, period) had the normal Thiel wire. So those 2.7s were someone's hotrod. Back to the lab.
|
vair68robert
I hope you will one day have an opportunity to audition the Ayre AX-5 Twenty. A very fine Audio experience indeed.
Happy Listening! |
@vair68robert
Interesting idea about rewiring the binding plates. I’ll consider that if I decide I prefer your parallel configuration. Still running the standard. I want to have one more critical session with this configuration.
Right, I have no intention of modding my Ayre. That volume control is mounted on the back plate for a reason :) |
@beetlemania
I should amend my recommendation about rewiring in your amp ,
I looked at images of Aryre AX-5 twenty and saw a beautiful image of electronics with no way to change speaker wires internally .
Between the Arye and the Spectral I don't know which has a more beautiful well layed out board .
|
@beetlemania
If you decide to keep the pos/neg separate cable configuration
then you might want to re-solder you speaker post so one is on the top and the other on the bottom , that way your cables can lay like you had them originally .
You might want to consider increasing the gauge wire in your amp that goes to the speaker posts , my amp had 12 gauge and going up to the 9.5 was a definite improvement . |
vair68robert
Thank You for the update. Cardas amp posts/speaker posts are very popular. Keep us posted as this upgrade settles into your room/system.
Happy Listening! |
Great timing jafant
I installed Cardas ccgr speaker posts on my 2.7s last Friday and
It's taken over 3 days to burn-in or break-in , bidding posts 3 days !
I now have Cardas 9.5awg chassis wire from the amp board
to the speakers with ccgr posts on the amp and speakers
and loving the smooth , deep and full sound .
Synergy !
@beetlemania
@unsound
I started a thread questioning the improvement in sound with bi-wiring ,
you would have thought that I started a political conversation !
Like many things in the audiophile world, from hard to imposible
to measure with anything but your own ears .
|
beetlemania
I subscribe to the fact that most components, especially digital, can benefit from 500 hrs of break/burn -in.
This applies to cables and cords as well.
Happy Listening!
|
|
@tomthiel Right, I switched back to the “normal” configuration one week ago Tuesday and listened over the weekend. It sounded similar: open, clear and relaxed. One conclusion is that my DAC must have needed >500 hours to fully break in. But I do think the parallel configuration sounds just a bit more more relaxed and open. I had the thought to compare side by side in mono like I did during the XO work but haven’t been motivated enough to do that. One issue with the parallel configuration is that the cables are more elevated off the floor and for more of their run. My right channel is near the back door and house guests occasionally kick the cables off their risers even in the normal configuration.
But, hey, no house guests during a pandemic! I’ll probably try the parallel configuration one more time. It did seem magical even if I’m now uncertain it made more than a small difference.
|
