Thanks Jafant! . To you as well !
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Rob from Thiel got back to me with a quote of $300. I have a lead on a NOS driver for the 3.5 for $225 which seemed high at first but now seems like a good deal if it is genuine. In anticipation of replacing the Thiels I auditioned some Sinus Faber Olympica II's. They sounded a lot like my Thiels and not enough difference for me to sink $10,000 (new) or $6,800 (used). Into them. I'm not even sure I liked them more than the Thiels. I also listened to a friend's Quad 57's with custom woofers. I have heard these several times over the years and was just refreshing my memory to use them as a reference. To my surprise I actually prefer my 3.5's that I have paired with a Velodyne DD12 sub-woofer that cost more than I paid for the Thiels. The woofer setup got rid of a bump in the room/bass response that really cleaned up the midrange. This may be because I took the bass load off my ARC VT100 amp, or because I got rid of the Thiel equalizer, or because I got rid of the bump. |
Richardp01, I'd suggest getting that 3.5 eq back asap, then setting it to the 40 Hz setting with your sub, if you find the sub that helpful. I'll say it again, the current market value of these speakers seriously belies the performance level. To my ears the only other speakers I've heard that compare/better regularly sell on the used market for roughly 5- 6X what the 3.5's are selling for, and those speakers then again outperform speakers many time their cost! I prefer them to most of the more recent Thiel models as well. Unless you plan on trading up/out (?), I'd suggest incurring the cost of repair if your considering keeping them for some time. |
Well I must say, as a 3.5 owner, this is the thread that keeps on giving every week. Some fascinating insights guys. Listening to the 3.5s as I write and I can confirm other recent comments that their reputation for brightness is simply a misunderstanding of what’s happening when you listen through them. They will ruthlessly murder bad recordings, which is what you’re hearing sometimes. Use a first class recording and you’ll get first class sonics. It really is that simple and not a necessity to pair them with amp exotica, though of course more is always more :-) Most crucial tip is to let your amp(s) warm up nicely, otherwise the Thiels will reveal any audible negativity in that process too. In terms of Thiel’s repair tariff, I won’t hesitate to use that service as requirements dictate. Paid $800 for mine, in pretty mint condition, and good luck trying to find better high end audio value than that. Also concur with the point about bass. Full range only rears its head when full range is on the recording. As has also been said, this is bass that’s musical and 100% coherent. I reckon that’s one of the toughest tricks to perform in speaker design. As we all know Jim was a towering genius. Think fine electrostatics with true balls, all delivered seamlessly, and you’ve got the picture. Will continue to follow what everyone says with interest and chip in where I feel is useful. |
catalysis... Your points were spot-on regarding how the 3.5's sonics improve when the amplification is warmed up a while. I've mated my solid state amp to a tubed pre-amp and I usually, but not always wait about 15 minutes before playing anything. The sonics are noticeably better after about an hour as well. It's funny how my appreciation for the 3.5's, "older models", has made me something of a zealot. I arrived late in the game to Thiel speakers, after Jim passed away, and only through Audiogon discovered them. I also find it most curious about how people find them "too bright" at times, an opinion I previously reserved for a pair of Klipsch CF-3's purchased in 1994 when I moved into my house here. Two ten-inch woofers and a horn loaded tweeter that used to grate on my ears like nails on a chalkboard. Ouch. I cannibalized the drivers and sold them off, then reconfigured the cabinets to hold most of my cd collection. Since then, discovering Audiogon along the way, I've had a LOT of speakers. Among those that I have liked are Magnepan, Totem, Von Schweikert, Meadowlark... The two that keep me curious are Thiel and Magnepan. The one that I've kept is Thiel. The aforementioned brands and a few others that I've had were all good in their own right, but the two that actually stopped me in my tracks have been Maggie and Thiel. Thiel has proven to be the winner in the last comparison, and if I may quote myself from another post, "Thiels are Maggies with bass." unsound's knowledge of the brand is second to none and his posts here have been immensely helpful to me. I will one day move up the food chain but it won't be at the expense of my 3.5's. |
Unsound, Why do you think the equalizer is so important? In my room the speakers without the eq. or the sub measured a valley at 60Hz and a peak at 40Hz. I needed the high pass filter from the sub to flatten the response curve. What you suggest will put a bigger bump in the low frequency response curve than I started with, add another layer of electronics to the signal path and create more load for my little 100-watt tube amp. The guy offering me the mid driver even suggested that the equalizer could be responsible for blowing the mid range, a suggestion I took with a grain of salt. My midrange appears worn out, not blown. Yeah, I could have moved things around to get a better response at my listening position but it's my living/TV/listening room and I have a partner to live with so there are more considerations than just my obsessive audiophile needs. |
It's possible to overload that mid range, certainly, and there are many anecdotal cases of this. The 3.5's will go plenty loud enough without the need for that, however, unless your listening room is half the size of Madison Square Garden :-) In terms of the equalizer, this is how they were designed and I see no reason to meddle with that. But as always with audio, one's own experience is unique and, of course, very room dependent. If you think your setup is better without the equalizer, then leave it out, or maybe just select the 40HZ option. I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated listening room, so the Thiels are located without any spousal input :-) I can imagine situations where if the 3.5's are placed near the rear wall that the equalizer will not be performing within spec. |
oblgny, I find your insights most interesting and very similar to my own experiences with the 3.5’s. There are certainly more "plug and play" speakers out there, but when you’ve got them set up correctly, the 3.5’s go places that I don’t hear on vastly more expensive equipment. For over 30 years I struggled to get a speaker presentation balance I was totally happy with. Frequent dalliances with Quad ESL’s of different stripes took me towards the goal, but always, always with the caveat of poor power handling and a lack of low end balls. I tried KEF 107/2s and they either didn’t suit my then listening room, which I doubt, or just weren’t as capable as I expected. Tried a slew of other brands and also enjoyed my Celestion Kingstons, which were probably the second best pair I owned. I even loved my DCM TF600s, which sounded wonderful but perhaps a little colored in the low end. LS3/5As were heavenly in some respects, but again the lack of power handling meant I was tailoring my musical program to fit the speakers, which is really not a good thing in my view. By chance I then I came across an almost mint pair of the Thiels. I’d never heard them dem’d at a show when I attended the London show for about 20 years straight, or at least if I did it never impressed me. It was a total revelation because they really do offer the best of all worlds. My listening room session last night was typical of their chameleon-like versatility. From Boston, to Debussy to Zeppelin to Yello to Joni Mitchell to Stevie Ray Vaughan to Jamiroquai to Laura Nyro to the Elgar Cello Concerto to Roy Harper to the Kings College Choir, and many other variations, they kept up a consistent standard of excellence that you just never hear with other brands. They simply don’t have a weakness and you have to hand it to Jim for such an amazing achievement. The way his memory has been cast away by the present regime is a disgrace. On the theme of the way Jim’s legacy was cast away, view this great YouTube video by a highly perceptive young fellow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkR5lAl22kk |
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Thanks Dave, This guy nailed it didn't he. To be honest it's something that's been happening in audio since the very early 90s'. Celestion and KEF and Quad are other good examples. Sadly it's a microcosm of life in general, in that there's very little that you can't make a little cheaper and nastier. |
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Hello Guys, I have been too busy to post lately, so was glad to see the many new offerings here by way of Thiel advice and knowledge. By the way, the Houston store was Audio Concepts, like the Dallas store, but no connection. It was a wonderful store, with two floors of audio gear and listening rooms. I heard my first Magnapans there, as well as the big vandersteens. The only place I've been lately with B&M stores is Denver, home of RMAF, which I was fortunate to attend. I have had 5i's, which I got rid of because I couldn't find the right power. Dave is a fount of knowledge on these speakers. I may have tried the DR. 9's. I've had 2.2's, 2.3's, 2.4's (my opinion the best speaker of reasonable size) and 5i's. I now believe I underpowered my previous Thiels.I have recently acquired CS 6's, which were damaged on delivery by Freighters and Craters, which I do not recommend. As I live in remote west Texas, I am finding repair of damage to be especially difficult. Anyway, I am going to power these otherwise beautiful 6's with Krell FPB 250 monoblocks, which I am buying from Daryl in Cleveland, a very knowledgable dealer with a great deal of experience with Thiels. I got the CS6's from him, at a great price. He discouraged me from shipping them, but I did it anyway, After a year with tubes and high efficiency speakers, I am glad to be back in the Thiel fold. More to come, I'm sure! |
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Good to see you- michaeljbrown funny thing about Audio Concepts in Houston- no one appears to know why it closed? It could not have been a competition thing...? I have visited the Audio Concepts in Dallas- it is a very fine shop. Upon visiting ask for Parker and he will take care of you. Regarding Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs- there are zero shortages of B&M dealers/retailers. Whatever is going on it is in the water! Whom is your connection in Cleveland? I want to say that Don Better Audio is in that vicinity. |
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I agree with the high current on the Thiels, Dave. I had a Krell fpb 300 on the 2.4's, and they were fantastic! I had tried a Classe older model on the 2.3's, I think. Don't recall if it was D9. Daryl Prowell is my guy's name in Cleveland. Daryl is a hands on dealer, uses the old fashioned telephone. He gave me a terrific price on the CS6's, was not enthusiastic about shipping them so I used Craters and Freighters. Bad Idea. It cost me over 800 bucks to get them here, only with a fork lift hole in the top of the Cardboard container built by C&F to save $ I guess. Resulted in a dent in the top of one of the speakers. Renee at C&F Cleveland located a guy in Midland to fix the dent. Long story short, he had a stroke during the repair process, and things are, shall we say, up in the air. I went by the little warehouse and looked at the work and was not happy. So I will get them back next week, and will find someone local who has since been recommended to me. Meanwhile Daryl will ship me the Krell Monos and I will send him my Quicksilver tube mini mites & some money, then continue to try to repair the damage done. I think Rob is a great resource, but I would think his repair including shipping from out here at the edge of the world would be pushing 2k. |
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As I posted early on this thread; I owned Thiel 3.5s. Flew to Seattle, WA from Juneau, Ak then ferry to Bainbridge, Island, then drove to Silverdale, WA. Auditioned them at "Nuts about HiFi" with a pair of large Krell monos which I could not afford but sounded Wonderful !! Bought them, knowing that I had MY speakers! Air freighted them to Juneau. Only the grill frames were damaged. Kathy Gornick sent me a new pair include shipping for $70. Visiting family in Chicago for Christmas, I bought a pair of Forte' model 7, class A monos. Were not the big Krells but were CL A. Still own them. Kept me very happy through the long winters. Blew midrange and tweeters (seemed at least (1) each year.) Kathy would send the needed driver before I could get the damaged driver sent to her ; under warranty / no charge. Thiel will never be the same again w/o Kathy and Jim. Played the Thiels with and without the equalizer. Mostly liked them with the eq at 40; 20 made them too muddy. Finally moved back to Chicago. Packed the Thiels in my van ( was not taking any chances w/ MY speakers! Finally got a Spectral system ( DMC 12, pair of DMA 90s used as bridged 200 watt monos) MAGICAL combo! No longer used the equalizer. When Kathy sent my last midrange driver with a letter saying this would be my last driver under warranty after a full 10yrs ( I bought them used) I sadly sold them to a guy that was very happy after a (1) LP side audition. Took me 8-9 years to finally settle on the Avalons I now own. Reading this thread; as long as "Rob" works and is allowed to work; Thiel owners should be OK. But I would start my search for a new pair of speakers before he is gone. Without Jim and Kathy, Thiel will never be the same. Will take time to find a new speaker! Suggest you might start with Avalons. |
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The subject of how long Rob will be able to keep the Thiel servicing going is one that should concern all us owners. It’s pretty clear to me that the new Thiel lords and masters aren’t adding any value into the business, in terms of innovation, indeed I haven’t read in any forum that anyone actually owns a pair of these rather ordinary looking new models, with their anonymous "me too" design. It’s to the new company’s absolute credit that the servicing has been allowed to continue, as that at least provides some connection between old and new, but how long will this very optional indulgence be tolerated? Especially if the new speaker range isn’t successful, and quite frankly I struggle to see how it can be, certainly at the ambitious pricing. All that being said, I haven’t heard the new Thiel range, but as they appear a very conventional design thats done away with the coherent source concept, long experience of the ways of this industry suggests there is little room for optimism, but I am hopefully wrong, because their success means that the service department can continue without creating too much cost cutting attention. I have only had to deal with Rob once for a new set of spikes and, apart from being a really nice guy, he is clearly now the world authority on all things Thiel. The major likelihood for most of us is midrange rebuilds from time to time (that was what Rob said, indeed), for which he quoted me $300 each earlier this summer. Mine are fine right now, but it’s clear they’ll one day need some attention and I’m seriously considering just getting them rebuilt ahead of the need to give Rob a little more business. Other than that it will be a matter of someone else being entrusted to rebuild them and I can only imagine that being a compromise, to some extent at least. |
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I feel the need to make some comments on the CS-3.5 equalizer. Mine broke a few years ago. When I sent it to Thiel they said the repair part was no longer available so they sent me a used unit and charged me about $70. That was big of them to do for speakers approaching 30 years old. This year I decided I would like some more clarity, less haze, so I decided to get rid of the equalizer. I remembered the old Stereophile review where the writer suggested the equalizer had some compromises. So I bought a Velodyne DD12 sub woofer last summer. This has some excellent measurement and balancing tools. I found that my original Thiels wth the equalzer had a bump in the bass response at about 40 hz in my room at my listening position. I am not willing to rearrange my room for the sake of my audio proclivities. The Thiels without the equalizer still had a bump at 40 hz. I set up the sub to flatten out the response curve in the bass. Subjectively this gave me less bass but it gave me more clarity across the board including the bass. Today I went back and put the equalizer back in the system and removed the sub to see if I still felt the same. I found on a jazz album that had some heavy kick drum and string bass that with the equalizer set at 40 hz. the bass was overwhelming and it rang longer (boomy?).. I found that on choral music the sopranos were slightly smeared with the equalizer. On orchestral music the bass seemed a little heavy and the strings were not as clear with the equalizer. So far I haven't found any downside to replacing the equalizer with the sub woofer that I selected. Bare in mind that I have a difficult problem with my room setup. Using the sub I got rid of the equalizer from the signal path, flattened out the bass response, and took some load off of my tube amp (ARC VT100). I did put a high pass filter in the signal to the Thiels but this appears to be done with a passive filter instead of an active filter since I get the same signal out of the sub with or without power to the sub. A passive filter maybe does less harm to the signal than an active filter that has transistors or opamps. I now have an equalizer in the signal path to the sub, but I surmise that an equalizer at these low frequencies is probably less audible than one at high frequencies. So for a thousand dollars I feel that I made an improvement in my system that I would have had to pay much more for if I had upgraded to different full range speakers. I can't recommend this as a good upgrade for all CS-3.5 systems since I was starting with a troublesome room and a relatively low-powered tube amp that may be wanting in the low end department. I do feel however that getting rid of the equalizer should be strongly considered. Try playing music with no bottom end without the equalizer and see if strings and sopranos aren't a little cleaner. |
Naturally everyone’s mileage will vary on this, according to one’s room and equipment, but I just love how the system sounds with the equalizer in the system. Even with the equalizer on, you could never describe the 3.5s as bass heavy. What I think it brings to the party is a sort of very refined approach that only lets the Thiels dip low when the musical signal dictates. Some might prefer a more generous bass, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I love the overall voicing with the equalizer. As I mentioned earlier, I had a bad experience with the KEF Kube in my 107/2s, so perhaps part of my enthusiasm is that Thiel didn’t make the same compromises with their external unit. Anyway, I’m pleased that you found a solution that’s right for you, which is all that matters. |
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My living/listening room has a ceiling that slopes from 9' to 17' feet at its apex with sidewalls on the left about 4 feet, and about 14 feet from the right speaker, plus a hardwood floor. Oy vey - a pretty difficult room to get a grip on for any speaker. In the virtual systems section here I've posted a few photos of my setup. The speakers are positioned about 8 feet apart. I listen from about 10 feet away. They are positioned 8 inches from the rear wall. (I have a stick with markings on it, a "mod" I created in mind after shuffling my Maggies, Von Schweikerts, Totem Hawks, Dahlquist DQ-10's around. Got tired of looking for the measuring tape.) To wit, my experiments with the eq of the 3.5's in and out and/or with the 40hz setting have borne out leaving it in place is the best FMHE. (for my humble ears) I also noticed that the imaging had suffered when it was entirely removed. Jim knew more about this stuff than I do, so I'm adhering to his philosophy and architectural theories, leaving it in the chain. One of of the reasons I so enjoy these lies in not having to bother with a sub. More wires, more power, more space.... As I've mentioned in earlier posts my listening level is conservative. I have never pushed these to "concert" levels, and I never will. Just toss in Ginger Baker's "Cyril Davis" off of the album "Why?" at a modest level and see why these speakers can still impress, if not astound. |
Excellent info- richardp01 & catalysis. it is important (to me) in getting the air and space around instruments, right! My Thiels really impressed w/ it inherent timbre- something I never experienced in any other speaker to date. Both Verity Audio and Magico is on my list to demo, at a substantial price increase. Happy Listening! |
jafant, I would concur about timbre. It's a quality I've only heard to the same sort of level in electrostatics. In fact, owning Thiels changed my long held perception that only electrostatics could create that illusion to the same extent. It's the consistency of the 3.5's that just blows me away. They've handled every type of musical program I've thrown at them with equal aplomb. I keep coming back to this, but it is a tragedy that Jim's design ideals aren't being adhered to any more. Here was a guy who dedicated his life to better sound and, I believe, took his designs to places that other speakers could only dream of arriving at. It's the balance of their overall qualities that makes them the best value you can find. I'm constantly amazed by the relatively low prices on the used market, when they trounce so many grandee speakers. |
Guys; All that have contributed to this thread have almost made me miss the 3.5s. And even though I have had a Spectral/Avalon system; Occasionally I still thought about the 3.5s. "Until a month ago." I acquired a pair of Pass 160.8s. I drive them directly with a Manley Steelhead. EVERYTHING the 3.5s (PRO AC, Sonus Farber, Wison,Avalon system was and "better" in every way. Have not rolled the tubes yet. As of now; tight, Musical, LOW bass, (no need for an equalizer or sub,) midrange to "die for", Highs shimmer and decay, Everything is natural and present. I am probably at my final "Forever" system???? At least that is what I am telling my wife. She says; she doesn't believe me! But admits that this is the best system/room we have had! I must say that it has taken many years to achieve this and that the Thiels are what kept me going. I surely say; Reference Quality at prices that are unbeatable. Buy a pair of Thiels for my other room? No. (Time to downsize some gear) The Manley, Pass, Avalons - Satisfy!!! Final thought; Vinyl, Tube phono, Class A SS --- RULES !!! For Me. For Now! Everyone, You're a great group! Enjoy your journey! Best Wishes. |
Guys - just got an email from Rob Gillum in reply to an inquiry. Repair for coax in MCS1 is $250.00. I certainly don't feel this is a bad price. Shipping boxes/packaging for my CS2.7's however is $160.00.....Each! I figured I would get packaging in case they no longer supported, but I'm re-thinking now. I purchased second hand and no packaging was supplied in the deal. |
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Jafant... "Cyril Davis" from the album "Why?" is indeed my reference tune when I'm weighing comparisons - that tune with my Pass X150.5 a while back was pretty much stunning. There's a similarly named cut on another one of his albums entitled "Cyril Davies", arranged slightly differently but they're essentially the same composition. Either version works for me. I own Baker's Air Force recordings on vinyl, all of his latter and latest efforts on CD. I started revisiting his stuff after seeing the documentary "Beware Of Mr. Baker" about a year ago or so on some cable channel. It's quite an unflattering portrait of a very strange individual. Such a nasty man. What surprises me all the more is how brief his time was with Cream and Blind Faith, yet that will certainly be the headline on and the bulk of material contained in his obituary. There's some pretty good stuff to be had during his post-rock days. "Why?" is quite good all the way through. I'll say it once last time - I am a total idiot for letting go of the Pass. I. Am. A. Total. Idiot. For. Letting. Go. Of. My. Pass. Labs. X150.5. I promise not to say that again. Let it serve as a testimonial to others whom might be considering a "better" amp for their Thiels. |
