Thiel Owners

How about CS7 and CS7.2? I would say full range...

Minuscule differences of course, but I think neither speaker went to 20Hz, something like 23Hz, but I appreciate that’s as near as dammit to full range.

Of course, but:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs35-loudspeaker-specifications#6mcsq3ICT5hzkUZZ.97

http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs5-loudspeaker-specifications-0#y99hwBpthoEYX6iw.97

Note the frequency response:
CS 3.5's +/- 2 dB
CS 5's    +/- 1dB
Most speakers are specified +/- 3 dB
I'm confident that with that extra longitude :-), both would measure flat to 20 Hz.

robinbarbour, Close, but not quite:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-specifications#zxQKTPbzDr4CaVoc.97

Keep in mind that the 3.5's and the 5's did with it sealed boxes too.

Thank You -guys for the excellent discussions in this thread.
Happy Labor Day!

"Thanks! for sharing your impressions and experiences- catalysis what gear, including cabling, are your using in your system?"

Benchmark DAC2 HGC, Bridged Adcom GFA 555II’s, Benchmark star quad interconnects. Canare star quad speaker cable. I have the 3.5 equalizer permanently in circuit. All components connected via Adcom Ace Enhancer.

Contrary to some people’s experience with Adcoms and Thiels, I don’t find the sound presentation sound harsh at all. I think that is helped by the very high quality dac which means the Adcoms are amplifying a very pure and accurate signal. I also agree with others that toe in should be absolutely minimal for best treble resolution.

Despite Thiel’s comments that these speakers aren’t very critical to position, I find that they benefit enormously from experimentation. Even two inches less toe in can bring big contrasts in sound presentation. I do have to wonder how many owners dismissed them as harsh without playing around with them in their music rooms?

My own take is that the tweeter has quite wide dispersion characteristics and any attempt to over focus treble direction, for example pointing directly at the listener position, essentially takes them out of Jim’s intended design window.

Excellent! catalysis

yes, very minimal (read none) toe in, on these speakers.

^ideally little to none, but if one has a difficult room with speakers close to the side walls it might be better to add more toe in.

Previous speakers in my listening room had always benefited from quite fierce toe in, essentially with the tweeters pointing at my ears. With the Thiels it’s totally different. They don’t sound bad in that configuration, but it does compress their ultra impressive sound staging, plus the treble is far better integrated with the other drivers when in a more or less flat set up. I have about an inch of toe in just to channel the sound away from the side walls.

Essentially I’m in heaven with how they sound.

While led they do plunge Stygian depths of bass, the sound is still lean when it needs to sound lean. In other words there appears to be zero cabinet coloration. To my ears the 3.5s have the sound I was chasing with electrostatics, but with all the dynamism they lack. Just superb.

Thanks! again- catalysis

upon my 1st demo session w/ the CS 2.4, I was instantly struck by its very rich sound (timbre) and presentation. I was fortunate enough to listen to those speakers on a 3-month work assignment. I am became a believer and awaited until a pair of CS 2.4SE came along for purchase.

Happy Listening!

Jfant;

when are are you going to post pictures of the new CS2.4 system?

jeff

Hello Jeff

good to see you again. Believe me, I am chomping at the bit trying to put it all together.  I really want to audition a few more pieces prior to any purchasing.  These integrated amps are on my short-list;

B.A.T.
Bryston B-135 (squared or cubed)
Conrad Johnson CA 150/150 SE
Pass Labs INT models

I want a frame of reference, as in the past, I have heard these companies
separates.  You guys will get it here in this thread, first.

Happy Listening!

2nd Note;

guys -upon completion, my system, will be reference level. Considering the dollar amounts involved, I do not want to make a mistake. Synergy and careful gear selection is paramount.  I have never had any interest in a revolving-door system.  Once in place it will be around for many, many years. 

^Why so centered on integrateds rather seperates?

jafant,
Reading the stereophile review of CS2.4 they listed :
Preamplifiers: Ayre K-5xe, Conrad-Johnson ACT2, Viola Labs Cadenza.
Power Amplifiers: Ayre V-5xe, Coda S5, Fisher 500-B, Cayin SA 50T, Moscode 401HR, Viola Labs Symphony.
That might be a good place to start, but if wanting to stay with integrated instead of seperates, I noticed at shows, Bryston was used with Thiel at a lot of their displays.

Jafant...

Based on my personal experience with Pass and CJ amps in a separates mode I have to say that I found the CJ to be "warmer" for lack of a better impression, while the Pass struck me as absolutely colorless - in a positive way. Some say Pass is too analytical, but with Thiels which also strike me as utterly colorless the match was quite good. Both amps had sufficient current to meet the demands of my 3.5's. 

To my ears the CJ also emphasized the low end to a noticeable extent, again not a negative impression, simply in comparison to the Pass. 

I've stopped monkeying around with my system now, realizing that I've gotten silly swapping out amps/preamps over the last couple of years. Thanks, Audiogon!

The only thing I will change will be returning to a Pass amp if and when the opportunity arises. My Primare A34.2 is a very good amp indeed but for me Pass is the one for my 3.5's. 

You have some tough decisions to ponder, albeit enjoyable ones. Have at it!

unsound-

simply kicking the idea around...

robinbarbour-

I have had an opportunity to demo the CJ Act2 pre-amp and it is excellent.
After audition, I had to wonder about the sound/presentation of the ART2/3 ?

Right On! oblgny

I rather enjoy both CJ and PL as separates. I want to demo their integrated amps for a comparison. I do get confused w/ the PL and First Watt models, as to, which ones have the most or highest current?

^Pass Labs. Both Pass & c-j make nice stuff, but Pass really works best with balanced inputs, and alas c-j only comes single ended. 

This thread has been great. I have always missed my 3.5s. I blew Many tweeter and midrange drivers. That's why I sold them. Has anyone else had this problem? I wonder if the new owners will be able to provide matching drivers to original specs for 3.5s that are long out of warranty and at what cost? Thiel 3.5s were truly Reference Speakers.

Nkonor...

Wow - I've never blown a driver in any of the speakers I've ever owned. Below there's a post clarifying that legacy models can be repaired by Thiel.  The pair of 3.5's I gave to my nephew a while back had a midrange repaired by them, cost around $400 all inclusive. (Shipping etc.)

Were you listening at a loud level?  Too much power/not enough?  I drive mine with an amp capable of 300 watts into their 4ohm load although I've never driven them that hard. 

nkonor my understanding, as far as 3.5s are concerned, is that Thiel service can only rebuild drivers. I understand the midrange can be rebuilt for $300 each, so not cheap, but I think well worth it to extend the life of these wonderful speakers. My mids are fine, but the design of the 3.5 means these are the most likely driver to fail.

Welcome! nkonor-

what power amps were you using to blow so many drivers?

$300 is nothing, if it means extending the life of your speakers.

This is the most important aspect of owning Thiel speakers.
As we see so many companies dumping customer service, it is good to read and know, that Thiel has our best interest at heart.

And ears!  Happy Listening!

I used a pair of Forte model 7 monos to drive the Thiel 3.5s (75w - pure class A ( Still have them; wonderful sounding amps.) Then switched to a pair of Spectral DMA 90s run as bridged monos (200w)
Had more than a few conversations with Kathy; after 8yrs, Kathy sent a letter along with the midrange driver saying that my warranty was up and that I would have to pay for replacements. Sold them shortly after.

Within their power range those Forte 7's were wonderful!

The 3.5 midranges with their paper surrounds occasionally need to be rebuilt. I've had both of my pair rebuilt by Thiel once gratis 10 years after the warranty ran out, only had to pay for shipping there. I sure miss Shari Graham and the non pareil  Thiel customer service. Not bad for  25 year old speakers.

Many Thanks! nkonor-

you raise an excellent point of view, in that, older power amps are still very much relevant. So long as some tech can replace caps and other critical parts as they die off, very relevant.  Happy Listening!

Agreed unsound,

Thiel offers a 10-yr warranty and frequently honors another or 2 nd owner
on its loudspeakers.  This type of commitment really "seals" any deal for me.

Happy Listening!

Jfant;

I went to Chicago to listen to Pass Labs, a while ago,and also listened to a PrimaLuna Integrated with SonusFaber Olympics

The PrimaLuna was very, very smooth and velvety with nasty rock albums that I brought along as reference. 

If integrated is an option, I would highly recommend a look at PL.

i listened with ARC stuff, too
PL was much better to me, CJ like

jeff

Much Thanks! Jeff

the PL and Rogue Audio products are real "sleepers" and can compete w/ the big guys like ARC, CJ...etc.

IMO, Pass Labs is the best solid-state at the present.

Just stumbled on to this discussion.

I have a pair of 2.3s, and my friend 3.6s.  As people have said, good clean power with the ability to effortlessly drive 4 ohm (2 ohm ideally) speakers will make a dramatic difference. When matched well, the Thiels are really special.

We had some success with older Krell amps and almost any age Classe (as others have noted). The Classe's really match well, being able to really grab hold of the lower frequencies, giving tight, articulate, but full bass. Even an older Classe CAP151 integrated was a great match with his 3.6s in a modest size room.

Someone mentioned that NAD doesn't match well. Hmmm... that reminds to try my NAD M2 (digital power dac) with my 2.3s that are in storage because my listening space is a little small at the moment. The NAD M2 completely blew away my Peachtree Nova 125 amp with the bookshelves currently in my system.

Agree, Thiels really perform way beyond their price point. Buying older models in good condition is value beyond belief.

Thanks! for sharing- spenrock

can you tell me and the guys here about the Krell and Classe' amps used by you guys?  Cabling is the most important factor as well. Happy Listening!

It's been a long while, but I think the Krell amps were KSA-50, KAV-500 (bridegable multichannel). The Krell KAV-300i (integrated) was used with my friends 3.6s for many years, and he liked the setup. However, last time I saw them, he was using the Classe CAP-151, which he likes better.

Shorter auditions with Classe amps were the CA-100, CA-150 & CAP-2100 (int). 

Cabling, I don't know what my friend used. Myself Polk Cobra, Oyaide (sorry don't know the model. Very quick, but perhaps a little light in the bass), DIY twisted and braided kinda like Kimber.

TY- spenrock

I have spent some times w/ Classe' separates, but never their integrated amps. Same w/ Krell. There are so many good choices.

Most like the newer Krell Vanguard. I do not know if Classe' still builds an integrated or not?  Cabling is the most important and often forgotten facet, as it ties an excellent system, together.

I need  a pair of the C's 2.4 as I bought a ss2.2 suggest has cs3.7 as a front and C's 2.4 as surrounds will be looking

Does anybody know whether Jim Thiel ever played around with the idea of an active loudspeaker?

I've wondered about frankensteining something in the CS6 form factor, consisting of the CS3.7's crossover, coax, and woofer; and the PX02, SS3's amp and 12" subwoofer replacing the passive radiator. 

Goofy i know, but was thinking that if Vandersteen was actively doing it (pardon the pun), whether it would work...

Cool project- saffron!

if you decide to do it, keep me posted. Happy Listening!

I think the reason for active is to couple drivers directly to the amplifier and get rid of crossover components. Also a passive radiator shares same compartment with the woofer and is coupled together by the air pressure, so I don't think two active woofers of different designs would work. The SS3 amp is designed specifically for bass reproduction with specific Thiele/Small parameters in mind and proprietary to the drivers.
Though nut to crack, but good luck! 

Until i got my 1st taste of the CS 2.4, later on the CS 2.4SE (my reference)
I did not think much of a passive Bass radiator? After hearing these outstanding speakers, I was "hooked" and  a believer!

Happy Listening!

Hope you guys are having a fun and music filled Thiel week!

@robinbarbour Understood.  What I was getting at was the form factor of the CS6. Obviously it would need a sealed chamber at the bottom to isolate the 12" sub from the 10". 

I was also thinking about the crossover considerations that Thiel already took into account when developing the specific PX02 that could marry an SS3 to a CS6 (if it even exists). Maybe start from there, and figure out if freqs are augmented rather than crossed over, and the impact that has on the main driver and its radiator. 

saffron_boots:

note the last sentence in paragraph 11:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/690thiel/index.html#OCgcjcgiVx3FrhzX.97

though not active, on point to some degree never the less:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-cs5-modifications

So not only is it unwise; it's unsound. BA DUM PAH! 

Thank you. I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your bar staff. 

Laughing...
As we enter the Fall season I know that some of you will break out the tubed gear to accompany your Thiel speakers.  Happy Listening!

As we gear up for another work week, hope you guys are enjoying the Music!

Woohoo - I just purchased from a fellow member here a GAS Son Of Ampzilla which will be swapped in and out with my Primare A34.2 just for kicks.  GAS is one of those manufacturers I've been curious about for a long time, along with Moscode, Plinius, Crown, Belles, and Coda. 

The GAS is rated at 160 watts into 4 ohms which is ample enough for my 3.5's - especially since my listening level is conservative.  

The pre remains a BAT VK3i which I think is excellent as well. 

Should be fun...