The Science of Cables

Interesting..what gauge and composition?

Hey dudes and dudettes, I use barb wire to hook up my rig.  Side benefit, it keeps the little rug rats away from the gear.   Win win.

People would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. - PT Barnum

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Wm. Burroughs

And then there is Geoff--the enduring believer that anything is possible. And don't call me Shirley..

Shirley you must be mistaken. Not a thread on the science of cables. Say it isn’t so.

Of late, I have come to the conclusion that certain threads have gone into that editorial abyss from which no true meaning or truth may emerge. I fear that this is where this thread now stands..

You first need to understand the DNA of each individual part within your system. Or you will make your choice on pure random order. You cannot do audio by only focusing on the end result. It will make it impossible to look back what the influence is of each part within your system.

I have done thousands of tests in over 20 years of time. And most I have done was with cables. The improvements which are made in the last couple of years are so much greater than what the improvements are regarding digital sources.

Audio need to be more focused on real music. Due to the unknown people have no real foundation of how to make the right and best choices. I will not name any brand, it is very easy to prove by sound that different brands in cables cannot reveal all aspects of sound. The sound and stage will prove which aspects are missing.

There are some similarities between some brands regarding how the aspects of sound are being formed. But........ in the end, they still differ from each other. Diversity (layering) in sound is by far the most important aspect/property of sound due to the fact that it has the biggest influence on human emotion. Silver often limits the level in the diversity of sound. Copper sounds in most situations not only more pleasant and more coherent. It reveals often more clearly the differences of the harmonics. Still, there are some exceptions.

Because......I auditioned systems that the silver cables sounded surprisingly more coherent. It really depends, but still in far most situations copper will work better. I see this as a fact. I never liked cheap silver cables. I tested many and always they didn’t make sense. The new Audioquest loudspeaker cables have proven that copper can be more open than silver with the older loudspeaker cables of AudioQuest.

When the audio industry has no real parameters, it is just one big Wild West. The word High-End is used and abused a lot. People have no idea when a product or system is really high-end or just hi-fi. People who buy cables have no idea if a cable can reveal all the aspects of sound. Trial&Error will never make this clear for them.

clearthink

Audioquest is not a bad...cable but it is not an exceptional... cable either.  just look at how many different cables this company ...distributes they make dozens...what they are doing is making cables of different "flavors" because none of them are truly neutral, accurate, and faithful. This allows every user, dealer, audiophile to proclaim for himself that one or more of them are the "best" when in fact each of them has their own shortcomings because the company does not know how to make a truly accurate cable.

Yes all too true. And neither does anyone else. Some here and there though do get a whole lot closer.

Audioquest Dragon speaker cable was actually my first high end wire. Way back then it was near impossible getting anything to audition so I bought it used. Then within a year I got my ears opened by a dealer who was way ahead of the curve in recognizing the importance of wire. There really is no substitute for trying lots of different components in your own system in your own home. 

Stewart was at the time in the process of moving from the east to the west coast. He stayed with me for two weeks while looking for a home out here. He was traveling in his van chock full of inventory. Stewart was an incredibly rare thing in a dealer- a guy who just loved audio, had already earned enough to not have to make any money, who basically was only doing this to be able to fly all over the world listening and having the best of everything. Two full weeks of bringing his treasure trove in, trying everything out, keeping only the best. Well, that I could afford. But to show the value of a really good dealer, when we were done my system not only sounded massively better than before (my wife literally- literally!- was startled out of the chair) but.... I had money left over. That's right. Everything I replaced was sold for MORE than what his much better stuff cost.

The problem is exactly what clearthink said- only not just AudioQuest but very nearly all of them, and including a lot of what even the good ones make, its more flavors than across the board nutrition.

There is no science. Not really. There is only guys just like us, only hopefully with better ideas and (again, hopefully) ears, trying out everything they can think of guess at and imagine to make something just a little bit better. Which almost always its different, but not necessarily better. Which cannot even be determined any way other than by listening. Which no one can do, there's simply too many. So we wind up using what are in effect band-aids, never really finding the answer just happy if one covers up the mistakes of the other.

This of course suits the industry just fine.

Just curious, anyone try lead as a conductor? I understand through a back channel lead sounds very good. I know what you’re thinking, it’s not as conductive as copper or silver. Well, duh, If conductivity was the issue then why doesn’t Silver always sound better than copper? Git ya there! Why lead? Probably because it’s an amorphous Metal, meaning no crystal structure.

Dear Dave;

I don't sell a lot of silver and this is for a good reason. In far, most systems copper will work better than silver. Based on the limitations I mentioned regarding diversity in sound. And also in a less coherent sound in most situations. But there are a few exceptions I use silver. 

The great thing about audio is that each situation is totally different and it is is always a challenge to find the best tools and products to imply. But in the end, we want each system to be able to reveal all the aspects of sound. This is a necessity what is needed for success with each individual system. 

clearthink, I was going to make a post addressed to you but deleted it, wish I hadn’t. I don’t think you were here when bo1972 was in his glory several years ago. He made a massive number of extremely long post which all said the same thing, nothing. He never gave any detail of anything when asked multiple times by multiple persons. Finally, everyone was completely tired of him.

Please don’t waste your valuable or even not valuable time.

geoffkait"Can we please have a little consensus here? What’s the hold up?"

I am pleased to respond but I ask you’re indulgence for my response. I have been threatened within the Audiogon messaging system (I have reported this to the Audiogon authorities) and this person has also had almost all of my recent posts deleted with immunity so I must be cautious in how I "frame" my response to this fair, legitimate, and thoughtful question.

There are certain people who believe that they have invented, devised, and implemented a method, technique, and protocol for specifying, designing, and building Music Reproduction Systems. They believe that this "technique" that they give a impressive sounding name two is infallible, unequalled, and beyond reproach. They then state that a specific cable or type of cable or few select manufacturers of cable, are the only one’s capable of valid, verified, authentic high end performance because of special "properties" that they have identified and only this person knows how this is done.

But most users, audiophiles, and dealers know that not only audio but most things in life are not that simple, basic, and certain so they also know that there is no one cable or amplifier or speaker or anything else that is guaranteed and assured to invariably deliver the "best" result because of course there is no "best" even though this person may claim that there is. so there can be no concensus.

I wish I could provide more specific detail but the rules of this forum and my personal safety forbid it.  

I’d have to disagree Bo, based on owning a tremendous amount of equipment from many different manufacturers...from all tube designs to all SS with many different cable designs.  Silver just doesn’t sound as natural.  It can artificially add accentuation to highs and leading edge of the sound, but overall it sounds less like music TME!

I mentioned it before, silver is a lot more difficult to use than copper is. Most people will always refer to cables. When it does not work, the cable is the one to blame. But when you do audio by Tru-Fi, it often shows that there is a different reason for the fact that silver does not work in that particular system.

Most audio products can only create a limited level in layering in sound. When you use silver in these systems it will make the end result rather clean in sound. When you use copper instead it will make the sound more diverse and pleasant. But when you use products like amps and sources who are exceptional in diversity in sound silver will not show the clean and harsh sound anymore. And will give you still a high level in diversity with even more details in the high frequencies.

The other problem can be found in tweeters. Older loudspeakers have a lot more difficulties with silver compared to newer tweeters. There are many dome tweeters who are not that found of silver. The other thing is the big differences in the quality of silver. Even with AudioQuest cables, these differences are more than clear. You cannot compare the WEL Signature and Wild Blue Yonder with the Fire and Wind. Both the WEL as the Wild are a lot more easy to use. The Fire and Wind can sound in some situations a bit more clean and harsh.

But using silver in power cables is even more difficult and complex. I’ve done a lot of research between power cables sinch 2002. Silver works well with subwoofers, but for amps, sources, and pre-amps I prefer copper. The most impressive step AudioQuest made with their new loudspeaker cables is that some new copper reveals more details in the high freq. than the older ones with silver. Some people believe that silver will give them more resolution compared to copper. But that is not true either.

Brands as Transparent, MIT and Tara Labs only use copper. But when your systems own amps, sources, power supplies who can create a stunning level in diversity silver can bring you further than copper can create. This is why it is so important to understand an be aware of the DNA of every single part within your system. This is the only way to understand what can be used and what will not work based on its DNA (aspects/properties of sound it owns and misses)

Alrighty then...IMHO and substantial experience, I have achieved my best results with either Transparent Cables or MIT.  Their superiority really becomes apparent when you compare them to other various cable manufacturers offerings in your own system.  It can be quite dramatic and ear opening as to the full potential that can be unleashed from your gear with these cables.  Currently I have found that Transparent has taken the lead with the Generation 5 designs....I can only give them praise as I’d be hard pressed to hear any weaknesses.  Everything comes through in full measure and in correct proportions.  Music just sounds stunningly realistic!  

Can we please have a little consensus here? What’s the hold up? There doesn’t seem to be consensus on ANYTHING. 😳

Had the new Audioquest stuff on trial...not bad, but any of their cables with all silver just sound hard to my ears.  Just passed minimum break in time for my Transparent Plus loom Gen 5....oh boy, the whole room is energized with dynamics and a full, complete tonality that is rarely conveyed!  All the detail without overemphasis and so right sounding.  I think I have my winner...lightyears better than anything I’ve heard to date!!

Audioquest is not a bad, inferior, or incompetent cable but it is not an exceptional, high performance, high end cable either. For proof of this simple, basic, verifiable fact just take a look at how many different cables this company designs, manufactures, and distributes they make dozens of models what they are doing is making cables of different "flavors" because none of them are truly neutral, accurate, and faithful. This allows every user, dealer, audiophile to proclaim for himself that one or more of them are the "best" when in fact each of them has they're own shortcomings, failings, and compromises because the company does not know how to make a truly accurate cable. This will fool some people with some regularity and it appears there is a user hear who is included in that group however I will not mention his name or he will have my post deleted for his own benefit, satisfaction, and purpose as he has done with complete immunity for the last few days.

We all have our own preferences, I love Purist Audio as well. I still sell Kimber as well. It is not only AudioQuest. But the new cables from AudioQuest are really impressive. The thing I love most about AudioQuest is the fact that they can reveal all the aspects of sound. Even their cheapest products work the same way. 

It is pure joy to work with these cables every single time. But what is even more important is the happiness of our clients who buy them. It is our task to create the highest levels in result possible. And AudioQuest has proven to be a big important part of the success of Tru-Fi. 

Anyway, revisited some of my favorite cables over the last 4 decades, including one newcomer;  MIT, Transparent, Audioquest and Anticables.  For my current setup, I have narrowed it down to Transparent and Anticables.  They all have their virtues and finding the right balance for any given system will be subjective of course.  Audioquest always gets my attention at first, but then let’s me feeling flat after the break in period is over.  MIT always sounds musical, yet can wind up a bit too uneven in the frequencies.  Transparent offers the lowest noise floor and the greatest dynamic range, with exceptional bass/midrange and clean organic highs.  Anticables are an open window...dynamic and totally revealing yet smooth .  They are expressive and quick with a bit of an upward shift harmonically.  It’s all in the balance and personal preference.  Long term listenability will probably put me in Transparent Audio’s camp for this system...provides nuance, texture, dynamics and an organic palpability that is hard to beat.  FWIW

I think Bo likes Audioquest a little bit or am I reading into his thesis too much?

People often forget that we work only with different specialists who have a lot of insight and knowledge in their field. Together you will always be so much stronger. AudioQuest is a great example that when you hire a specialist in electricity your products can reach new levels of quality. Audio needs better people who understand certain aspects better than others do.

So together you can develop better new products. Only a higher quality and level in realism in audio products can make more people interested in audio. Audio shops need more education regarding all kind of different cables. When I hear the stories of AudioQuest Europe it proves that education is needed.

All the photos on Facebook and the Internet often show that many people who work in audio do not even understand the basic parts of audio anymore. The photos tell and prove it. You cannot wait and just stare. You need to act. I talked with AudioQuest Europe different times about this matter.

Their presentations are only based on the new technical enhancements of their new products. People need to be taught how to use cables and what they will do. When you see what is even possible with cables these days, in the past we could only dream of this.

The influence of cables has never been bigger than now. People often think that you need expensive cables. But that is not true. When you get the right DNA even the cheap cables can make a huge difference.

We work our way and respect is a lot more important than money ever will be. I receive each week emails of people who aks advice and want details of which cables or products we advice for their system.

But we work totally different, I will never tell them. We are not interested in selling just separate products. We create sound by how it is formed and which aspects it owns in real. We do not want people to get systems which cannot reveal all the aspects of sound.

When people would know more about how music sounds in real it will make them understand easier why their own systems sound so different. When you do not teach people how voices and instruments sound in reality, they will keep on buying products who can sound a lot different.

There are too many brands in cables who emphasizes a certain freq.range. But based on the fact that audio is done by trial&error they will never understand the influence and DNA of this particular cable. Trial&error will not give them the information that this cable emphasis a certain freq. response. 

Trail&error will always make you different faults within any system you want to create. This is why at the end your system can still not reveal all the aspects of sound which your music owns. The sound and stage your systems produce will always show what is there and what is missing.

Also when you modify, customize, or alter an electronic component with different parts you run the risk of fire, electrocution, and an invalidated warrantee especially when those parts are selected, chosen, and installed by someone who lacks proper training and education and your insurance company will reject and deny, any claim arising as a result, consequence, or outcome of any such modification

bo1972 "They use cheap parts which we replace by superior ones."

You replace parts that have been carefully selected, evaluated, and tested with different also cheap parts as a way to convince those who do not know better that you’re "Tru-Fi" approach is superior and valid and that you are qualified, expert, and capable of choosing parts which actual degreed engineers have personally certified as superior! You tell us that we "don’t know F. about high end audio" when you are unwilling to understand, accept, and accommodate the problems of ICSS distortion which reveal that you’re "Tru-Fi" approach is unscientific, incomplete, and tragically flawed, defective, and unproven.

bo1972 "They use cheap parts which we replace by superior ones"
You select, install, and promote cheap parts also that you try and persuade and convince others that they are "superior" but they are not they are only different you do this to promote you're flawed, incomplete, faulty "Tru-Fi" concept, premise, and protocol that is incomplete especially because you overlook ICSS distortion and use improper, incomplete, and poorly executed cables in your Music Reproduction Systems.

bo1972"When you just take a look at how most audio products sound and what they can reveal, most are just a joke. This has nothing to do with a personal taste or even philosophy. Most people have difficulties to face the truth."

Actually the person with perhaps the greatest problem, challenge, and difficulties in facing the truth is bo himself, who's entire premise, basis, and theory is that He alone has access to the truth via "Tru-Fi" and the rest "have difficulties" as he claims here I know the truth about the "tests" that bo promotes and conducts and I know the truth about his claims, pronouncements, and "facts" and I will tell you to listen for yourself do not let this guy's deception convince you that you can't handle the truth or that most components sold for Music Reproduction Systems are junk.

We only work for our clients and we listen to what they want. Instead of selling boxes they don’t want and need. Only those who envy us will always attack us without any kind of foundation. The only thing they can say; are just assumptions. You all may judge; just hear it for yourself and then you judge.

I got a lot of different questions each week of many different people. When people ask me things about products I don’t know, I will never tell them lies. You cannot know everything, just tell the truth. I am going to tell you a story about how easy it is to be wrong about the fact that you thought you were right.

I have a friend who is responsible for some brands you all know. And he reads a lot of user reviews. Sometimes he sends some to me as well. Even from Audioquest Europe, I get user reviews sometimes.

So the question is: What is the real truth?

We also do picture screens (we sell Oled screens by far the most) and vision by Tru-Fi. This means we judge and adjust all picture screens by all the aspects of vision. And again we just do it by facts. Vision is a lot more complex than sound. Most aspects of vision humans cannot even adjust themselves. This is why we use the most advanced calibration software in the world.

Like audio manufacturers make choices. They use cheap parts which we replace by superior ones. This brings it to a new standard in quality. Limited human beings can only sell a screen out of a box.

We have sold all Audioquest HDMI cables a lot since 2010. Due to research and testing, we know the differences between all of them. This makes it for us a lot more easy to explain all differences between these cables to our clients. But more important which one to advise and use.

In the last years, we saw and noticed during calibration of screens that many surround receivers use rather cheap video scalers. This makes the end result for us unacceptable. We cannot reach the level which we see as standard and what we demand.

Both my friend and AudioQuest Europe did send me users reviews of AudioQuest HDMI cables. There were different people who called them a scam and snake oil.

So the question is; are they right?

As always I will not write down any brands. Because it is not my responsibility that these brands and products are good products. But to be honest; if I should sell this quality, I would directly stop with my work and look for another job. These products will never make any person happy for a longer period of time.

People wrote in user reviews: that the HDMI cables of AudioQuest do not make any difference compared to cheap ones. So we took a few AudioQuest HDMI cables with us.

These surround receivers are of brands you all know. When we compared different brands and even different AudioQuest HDMI cables we were stunned. It didn’t make sense and they were not able to make a big difference at all. It was the opposite in result compared to all our own tests and findings with the same HDMI cables.

So we understood the thoughts of users regarding the fact that HDMI cables did not make a big difference. They were right but only for a part. Most reviews these days are paid. That makes it very difficult to get an objective idea about any product. People will often believe a review and what people write.

They all pointed out to AudioQuest. The fact is that the most video scalers they use these days are rather cheap. But you will not find this fact in any review. The products we use and sell regarding surround each AudioQuest HDMI cable makes a huge difference in both sound&vision. Even the cheapest one shows better results than most more expensive HDMI cables of other brands.

This proves how easy it is to blame the cables. These days people are looking for cables who fit their components and systems the best way. This is also trail&error level. When you will never be able extract the full DNA (name all different aspects of each individual part in your systems owns and misses) of all parts in your system you do audio by trial&error.

When you use products who are able to reveal all the aspects of sound, cables like AudioQuest will make a much bigger influence on the end result. This is why Tru-Fi owners have a totally different thought and even truth about AudioQuest cables compared to all owners of trial&error created systems. Sound will always prove these facts over and over again.

Boy's about as sharp as a bowling ball. Bowling ball, that is...:)

@elizabeth.. Like your ref to Foghorn Leghorn. But I don’t think “old bo” will get it :)

Kudos to ErikSquires for his comment re “a verbose knitting together of irrelevant subject matter”. British refer to what Erik commented on as “blather”. I much prefer Erik’s description. FWIW; I think Bruce Brisson of MIT Cables and George Cardas are repositories of the knowledge needed to build cables :)

I have to say there's nothing more confidence inspiring than lack of brevity.

--When you see smiles on people their faces, you are aware that this is what people want and need.
+150% ! :)

The audio-blindness make all people forget the essential part of audio. And that is music. When you just take a look at how most audio products sound and what they can reveal, most are just a joke. This has nothing to do with a personal taste or even philosophy. Most people have difficulties to face the truth.

They protect the brands and stuff they bought. I understand that, but it will always limit them in the end result. The facts prove that people get not the quality they paid for. Just start conversations with many people who spend serious money on audio for a long time.

It is even ridiculous to point at me, audio is all about facts. And not about assumptions and audio systems created without a foundation. Here you will find the pain of most people. We talk a lot with people their experiences in audio often for a very long period of time. We see a lot of similarities. Many are not satisfied or happy. You easily can see it back in the music they buy. I am often amazed at how much money they spend on audio and how less they spend on music.

Trail&error created a mindset in the heads of most people. And for most, it is difficult to let it go. When you will not change your mind, your incomplete system will always stay incomplete. When we show people how much more details and aspects their music owns, they understand directly why they miss the connection with their system. When you see smiles on people their faces, you are aware that this is what people want and need.

Others make it personal all the time. So I take a look at what they sell or what they own. It becomes always very easy to prove which mistakes they all made. They were always the first ones who attacked me. So they asked for it. This is my world, and the best and most convincing sound will always be chosen. So start to do your research yourself and improve your own skills. But stop crying all the time and yes react on the thread.

The positive part regarding cables is that the best become even more influential than most loudspeaker, amps and sources are. Spend some time to read about sound and music. You will understand audio a lot better. And it will make the importance of cables more clear and more effective.

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ try to stay on topic, bo, and you won't get deleted. This thread is "The science of cables."

I even asked to remove some of myself. It is always a reaction to a reaction. Audio becomes often so personal. This is why audio needs parameters so it becomes more clear what sound and music really are. Trail&error has put a mask on the truth of music. People don’t know how music sounds in real. The only thing what trial&error did was creating many different audio products which sound so much different than how voices and instruments sound in reality.

Most people understand and even describe that most systems they audition miss emotion and engagement. But most still have no real idea why they experience it without emotion. Everything has a reason for it. When you would read more about sound and the way our emotion works regarding music it becomes a lot more clear. Trail&error made people believe that you are the only one who can create their own favorite system.

When I ask people who see audio as a hobby for a long time; can you tell me how voices and instruments are being displayed into space? Or how big are they in proportion when you close your eyes? And what are the aspects of sound?

People say that they have no idea. Then I ask them; tell me what is your foundation and on what aspects you judge audio products?

They still have difficulties to answer these questions. It makes them aware that they have no foundation on which they make their choices. It even becomes clear for them that why their systems still do not sound as they hoped for. You cannot do audio without any real foundation to guide it and to understand what you are doing. This has again nothing to do with personal taste, we are all talking about facts.

The mindset people have chosen even creates the truth in your head. Only when something changes their thoughts, their truth could be changed. People will always choose the option which they prefer. Your truth is being formed by what you know. When you get a different perspective what creates a much higher result. It becomes easy for people to change their thoughts and even their truth.

elizabeth

Seems we have entered "The Twilight Zone"

This thread is about the science of cables. I think the moderators are simply trying to keep it from being hijacked by those who want to tell us how they can prove we’re effin’ stupid because we don’t follow their Tru-Fi protocol, or whatever.

@teo_audio, +1 for recent post.. I could not agree more. Measurements will always lag behind human perception.

I’m sure you mean well Bo...keep your love of music and audio strong!  Perhaps see a psychiatrist once in awhile, but otherwise keep living your dream:) 

I owned and sold a lot of Furutech power connections. At that time they came out they were better than the brands we used and sold. But when Oyaide came out we did a comparison again. And based on Tru-Fi (all aspects of sound) the end results were better with the Oyaide connectors. So we started to sell Oyaide and changed all our Furutech power connectors by Oyaide power connectors.

These days we still sell Furutech wall sockets sometimes. The advantage of the Furutech can be found in the middle freq. compared to the Oyaide. But regarding all different aspects of sound, the Oyaide perform better. We always make time to listen to new products and even new brands. When we think they are better than those we use and sell. We are always prepared to change. It is always our first goal to give our clients the best end result.

@teo_audio, +1. Absolute truth acknowledgement is essentially groupthink. Groupthink is evil.