The Palladian-A step beyond

Bluewolf,

***This is a great place to start. The UNI-DIN approach is informatively explained on the AS website:

http://www.arche-headshell.de/uni-din-a-new-approach/

I do hope that we can all kiss and make up and move on and enjoy this wonderful hobby, and present our views, all the more credibly, without personal attacks. ***

This is one of the things I already addressed. Maybe you thought it was just an attack with no basis in reality? Did you read the post script?

It is claimed that one null (point of tangency) can not be calculated from the other. According to the rules of geometry this is only possible if the cartridge can be aligned two ways at the same time. In other words, it's not possible. If you have an alternate solution I'd be interested.

What kind of (former) compatriote are you?
I thought that you got the same upbringing as I deed.

BTW I get my Sliwowitz in Essen, Germany, in
huge quantities(50 liter each time) so I don't need your ''leftovers''.

Nandric,

You  previously spoke about language games. Although I have a degree in another field, I worked in high end audio for awhile because I like it. I was never an assistant or a clerk, as you described me in the past. After cofounding AHT (mfg.) I moved on.

This is neither here nor there. Since we have only two user reports of Palladian why don't you talk about your AS cartridge?  I doubt if you'll get more mileage out of "killing" me.

Dear Lew, Sometime I regrete that you deed not follow your

Dostojevski inspiration. I am sure that you would become a

great writer. However I always enjoy your prosa despite the

fact that you become medical scientist and questionable HIFI

''analyst''.

Dear Chris, What kind of (former) compatriote are you? I thought

that you got the same upbringing as I deed. The soft Canadian

opproach ( aka ''political correctness'') obviously spolied your

''manhood'' (grin). BTW I get my Sliwowitz in Essen, Germany, in

huge quantities(50 liter each time) so I don't need your ''leftovers''.

The problem however is my Serbian upbringing
according to which the revenge is more important than sex.

So I will give Fleib the so called ’Italian kiss’’ just before I kill the guy.

Amen bluewolf. The problem however is my Serbian upbringing

according to which the revenge is more important than sex. So

I will give Fleib the so called 'Italian kiss'' just before I kill the guy.

Fleib, ''Are you familiar with the term dummkopf?'' Well I am

as familiar with German as with Dutch . The expression ''term''

comes from ''terminology'' in scientific sense and is not equivalent

to what is called ''word''. There is no such word in German btw. It

is a combination of two ''morphems'' by which new words can be

generated: ''dumm'' and ''Kopf''. The grammar of both languages

allows such combinations without restrictions and that is why both

languages are ''unbelievable rich''.  As a Serbian immigrant I got

law degree in Holland and was university teacher for more as 30

years. As far as I know you was assistent in an HIFI shop where

you learned how to a.o.  adjust LP 12.'' Dumm '' (stupid) is used in

the context of ''intelligence'' , more in general as ''learnig capability''

while your and my ''social achivement'' demonstrate this capability.

Nandric, in case you hadn't noticed, my post on 12/10 10:37pm was addressed to Raul after he documented a lengthy attack. I commented on the substance of his post and ended:

"Despite any history you might have with Dertonarm AKA Dietrich Brakemeier, I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. The rest is history or conjecture."

Then you talk about those who like or dislike Brakemeyer, etc. etc.

Are you familiar with the term dummkopf?

Fleib, Speaking about ''what the court of public opinion is about'' you obviously overlooked the comment of bluewolf. This is usualy the

case with people who are convinced about their  own right. But

 Raul nor you have enything to say about Dertonarms products

because neither of you has any idea about them.  Both of you

are obsessed  by his charakter and don't care about his products. But what has his charakter to do with the sound of his products?

I don't believe that Einstein was an nice person but what has this

to do with his theories?  I very much like Ikeda's FR- 7 series carts

and don't care about his charakter.

Nandric,

is public so everyone is entitled to comment. As a ''counsellor'' I don't think that your witness (aka Raul) will make your post very convincing. Your pretended neutrality regarding Dertonarm is also not very convincing because of your insinuations that Dertoarm is a ''moral sociopath''. But more to the point is the fact that you has nothing to say about my arguments. This is usual in your reactions to my post. You deed not deny to have never seen or used any of Dertonarms products. What value should we put on your comments on his products then? Then I mentioned ''craftsmanship'' in the context of your interpretation of intellectual property. I teached intelllectul property for 30 years. I even mentioned ''know how'' which in no way imply patent as such . You also deed not deny my statement that Dertonarm is a professional manufacturer while you and Raul are amateurs. I hope for you that you will be never involved in whatever lawsuit without an councellor . With your kind of ''argumentation''  you will have no chance.***

Once again, what's the point, to dig a deeper hole for Brakemeier?

Raul is not the witness. He pointed the way to a 10 page indictment on What's Best Forum. Can you defend against it?  Those posts seem credible to me, but if you have evidence to the contrary.....

My "insinuations" were the logical conclusion of the moral aspect of the thread.  That was stated clearly in "looks like ..."

On the AS web site intellectual property is claimed for uni din.  LOL

I don't believe that past mistakes or problems should necessarily be held against someone. That's why I suggested to Raul that he might like the sound of AS carts, and the Palladian should be judged on its merits.

Want more bad publicity for Acoustical Systems?  That's what the court of public opinion is about.

Dear bluwolf,
For exactly the same reasons as you mentioned Dertonarm left

our forum while I have not seen any post from J. Carr lately.

Those were our , as you name them, '' experts''. Well why

should they if such autodidacts like Raul and Fleib pretend to

know everything better? You should not consider yourself as

an ''lonly wolfe''. The most people are not blind but have some

peculiar opinion about ''politeness'' by which ''critical remarks''

are not done. BTW you also formulated your disatisfaction very

carefull (grin).

Kind regards,

Dear Fleib, ''the counselor'' which post ''do not help (his) friend''

is public so everyone is entitled to comment. As a ''counsellor''

I don't think that your witness (aka Raul) will make your post

very convincing. Your pretended neutrality regarding Dertonarm

is also not very convincing because of your insinuations that

Dertoarm is a ''moral sociopath''. But more to the point is the

fact that you has nothing to say about my arguments. This is

usual in your reactions to my post. You deed not deny to have

never seen or used any of Dertonarms products. What value

should we put on your comments on his products then? Then

I mentioned ''craftsmanship'' in the context of your interpretation

of intellectual property. I teached intelllectul property for 30

years. I even mentioned ''know how'' which in no way imply

patent as such . You also deed not deny my statement that

Dertonarm is a professional manufacturer  while you and Raul

 are amateurs. I hope for you that you  will be never involved in

whatever lawsuit without an councellor . With your kind of

''argumentation''  you will have no chance.

Nandric,

I think you would have been better off letting this go instead of reminding me that I am not in the business, not a professional, which also means I'm not in competition with Acoustical Systems.  I can't remember having any interaction with Dertonarm on this forum or anywhere else, and have nothing against him personally, and I wasn't aware of his apparent sordid history as a cheat and con man. This is well documented with testimony, in Raul's link:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6502-Refund-problem

I also wasn't aware, but suspected that the principal of the company, one
Axinia Schäfer, is or was his wife.  This is to avoid past liability claims? If one believes these posts on Whatsbestforum, Daniel Brakemeier AKA Dietrich Brakemeier looks like a moral sociopath, someone thinking they are above judgment and believes their own lies.

Despite this, I suggested that the cart should be judged on its merits. You, on the other hand suggested that I shouldn't post on Raul's MM/MI thread because I, at the time, did not own enough qualifying carts. This is despite the fact that in the past I owned a TK10 MLII, Kisiki Blue, M20FL Super, and numerous others -  currently an AT15/20SS, 980LZ, Z1/SAS, Genesis 1000, etc.

As a past mfg. I submit that any company is constantly on trial in the court of public perception. Counselor, your last posts do not help your friend.

Sincerely,

Addition, I forget to mention the clear diffrence between the

dramatis personae in my last post. Dertonaram is without any

question an professioanal manufacturer while Fleib and Raul are

amateurs like the most of us.

Dear fleib, ''value judgment'' are not truth functional. That is why

we are allowed to like blonds or brunettes or whatever cart we

like. So what is subjective or objective (aka ''scientific'') is difficult

to practice in our hobby. Anyway one can easilly discriminate

between those who like and dislike Dertonarm. Those who don't

like the guy use terms as ''innovation'', ''patent'' ,''intellectual property''

  etc. in order to denay his merits. There is however  the term 

''craftsmanship'' which we do use in the context of the retips and also

by those ''grandmasters'' like Takeda, Ikeda,  Allearts, etc. by

 whom we don't care if they ever made any  patent application.

As we know or can know Dertonarm designed and produced

Apolite TT, Arche headshell, Uni Din, two tonearms and 4 MC

carts. His most rigurous critic, the Mexican however never

produced anything. What he claims is desigend and made by his

Sanco Panza. Those who are familiar with the Mexican oracle

 know this by the so called ''inside information''. Your ''scietific

approach'' is alas not relevant because you have no experience

with any of Dertonarm's products so you can only guess or

 speculate about them in the best philosophical tradition with

 many ''ifs''. 

Raul, good documentation. I wasn't aware of those threads you linked to. There's always a danger in trying to justify subjective opinion(s) with science, especially when it's phony science. The posts by Mark Kelly are interesting. 

I already resolved the alignment thing, at least to my satisfaction, without bothering to verify anything. Here's my post a few days ago on Audio Circle:

***
My previous comments about UNI DIN alignment might be incorrect. Brakemeier claims Analog Planet nulls are wrong. My comments are based on Fremer's published information or misinformation as the case may be. Maybe his friend Wally Whatisname screwed up?

I'll cut to the chase. Although Brakemeier claims that one null can not be calculated from the other and they don't conform to traditional geometry, I think he's full of it. This is a smoke screen. If there is one null, there has to be another or the alignment would be unlistenable. I suspect the point of alignment on his template is not actually the null and that's why Mikey screwed up, if in fact he did. 

Brakemeier is a cleaver fellow and he claims intellectual property for this alignment. Good luck with that one Mr. Brakemeier. I think you might have delusions of grandeur.
Anyway, the giant table looks awesome and I suspect Acoustical Systems will sell a bunch of their carts at $10K/pop, maybe some arms and alignment devices. They will have to settle for that.***

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.1520#msg1574075

It's also interesting that the protractor was compared to the Clearaudio  device. I read a post somewhere that claimed, the CA protractor is flawed because the line of alignment to the arm pivots is incorrect - misplaced.  This looks like it's the case, but I've never used or seen either of these.

Despite any history you might have with Dertonarm  AKA Dietrich Brakemeier, I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. The rest is history or conjecture.

Regards,

First we made a measurement of a combined alignment with the Ortofon and Clearaudio protractors. The summary klirr factor (distortion factor) was measured and weighted over the whole record side.

The result was 1.22 % distortion.

Following this we aligned the very same tonearm/cartridge combination with the SMARTractor and repeated the measurement.

The result was 0.48% distortion. """

for any rookie that was : OOH!. First that was an average measure and second the spindle hole in those protractors are wrong and they showed this:

"""

One of the least expensive protractors is from Ortofon.

With this protractor the spindle hole was way too large. """ and the other:

"""

the protractor made by Clearaudio.

The effective length of the tonearm is marked in steps of 1 mm - with a resolution of 0.2 mm.

The center drill for the spindle has significant play - approximately 0.5 mm """

MINT LP protractor that’s very inexpesive and highly accurated can meet at least that 0.48% distortion touted by him in his Smartractor. Again bla, bla, bla and more blabla.

**Why do they dominate the high end? **

I think you know. Despite their limitations, "they do have the undeniable virtue of costing more."

**Why do they dominate the high end? **

I think you know.  Despite their limitations, "they do have the undeniable virtue of costing more." 

What would you use on your Thorens  or Goldmund Reference, a Shure V15?  How about a beautiful Koetsu to adorn that throne, and when the tip wears you get a replacement for half price. The sound is lush, and dare I say romantic?  Not your cup of tea?  Maybe a Veritas will get those high frequencies for the hard of hearing. Too forward?  Then the Benz is for you. You'll get perspective like you wouldn't believe. It sounds as if your stereo is across the street, but it's perfect for those Altec horns in that small room of yours above the garage.  It's a shame, but the wife is sensitive you know.

Not so fast Raul.

Okay, here's the deal; I saw a PDF written by Dietrich Brakemeyer in 2015. It kind of explains the design criteria of uni din. It gives a brief history of alignments (I won't bore you with the details) and talks about his alternate alignment as an option.

As a preface to the PDF he says the published nulls (Analog Planet) are wrong. I want to make this clear. I have not been in touch with Acoustical Systems or Brakemeier directly, or Fremer, and I have no vested interest in any of this.

I saw this late at night and at first I thought  perhaps the nulls change with eff length. After a second reading I'm not sure, but probably not. Check this out- to paraphrase:

**
 Uni-Din does not follow the standard calculations for tangential curves as we know them. It also features very unusual resulting offset angle and overhang for the effective length. Uni-Din was first designed, then calculated.

You may be tempted to recalculate Uni-Din based on the known second null point with the calculation tools offered in VE or similar websites.

However, this inevitably leads to the first null point being more than 20mm away from reality, and thus leads to a curve that is anything but Uni Din.**

I'll be honest. I don't know what the hell he's talking about because there's not enough info. I don't have an AS alignment device to debunk this. AFAIK this is like a Dennesen or Feikert protractor which gives you the inner null?  One of these protractors automatically gives the outer null. If one null can not be calculated from the other, it can be measured.

This requires a novel device called a ruler, or you could go to VE and download a Chpratz protractor which is just a calibrated straight line.

Uni-Din owners - measure your nulls.

Raul, Given your criteria for a great cart (sounding live), you might like the Acoustical Systems offerings?  I try to keep an open mind, but like you, won't endorse something I haven't heard or jump on some bandwagon. Have you heard any of the other AS models?

I have to withdraw my analysis of uni-din alignment, at least for now. I have reason to believe it might be based on false information - the 63.3 and 112.5mm nulls.  More on this later.

Regards,

Halcro,  Even if the movements on the stylus end are similar, I think we  need to look at the stylus/cantilever as a system, a vibrator.  That might sound funny, but that's exactly what it is. That little guy has to vibrate 20,000 times per second to achieve 20KHz. To think that some carts have response to three times that or more is hard to conceive, but it's true.

Regards,
 

Low compliance carts are stiffer, so it takes more effort to deflect the suspension when playing a record.

***Why would a MM cart have any difference in stylus movement than a MC?***

I don't think you can attribute any differences there to generator type, seems more like a function of stylus profile, contact area, groove height and that sort of thing. It might be nonproductive looking at it that way.

There's another traditional line of thought as to energy transfer and motor type and it has to do with the nature of the beast.  Because the coils are moving they transfer more energy and are more subject to returning energy. This kind of makes sense. The fixed coils in a MM are gigantic in comparison and you have a small magnet or two, wiggling.

One thing is for sure, MM's are much harder to load, but they're tunable. 

Seems to me this conversation is getting a bit strange. Someone is saying the mechanical amplitude of cantilever movements should be the same for different carts, or types of carts?

That's a bizarre notion. Maybe you're looking at the stylus end of the stick? What really counts is the generator end. That's where the cantilever delivers the goods - excites the generator and converts mechanical movement to electricity.

Compliance is a measure of springiness. Would you expect 2 cantilevers with different springiness, made of different material, and of different lengths, to vibrate/resonate and deflect the same? 

I think the reason you can get decent results with a 64S, is because the arm/cart resonant frequency with a 'normal' cu cart goes down rather than up.  If you have a stable platform you can tune the combo with compatible headshell, tonearm wrap, damping, etc. and whatever works as long as it tracks and your woofers aren't jumping out of their baskets.

If you use a low cu cart on light arm, the resonant frequency goes up and approaches or enters the audible band which results in intermodulation distortion. IMD can sound euphonic here, reinforcing the bass or midbass, although it can cause involvement many octaves above the resonant frequency.