The Palladian-A step beyond

Dear @thuchan : Audio Technica/Signet has an enviable cartridge manyfactuer pedigree that perhaps only Ortofon can be nearest to AT.

They were one of the first manufacturers to choose the Shibata stylus tip along berylium and boron cantilevers materials but they used too ruby and diamond material for top models in its cantilevers and even developed its own stylus shape they named micro-line. They were almost the first manufacturers that used blend and all cartridge body materials as titanium and ceramic one even with external body damping materials. They developed several great cartridges in both alternatives: LOMC and MM ones where its top models even today are a challange for today other manufacturers designs.
AT, developed too equipment to make LPs and even developed some self AT recordings including the great testing AT two records presentation.
They were and are true experts on analog develoments of tonearms ( along AC. ) and SUTs. They developed too first rate and very high quality magnesium headshells, cartridge wires, phono and IC cables, TT platter clamps, TT mats including the first stand alone vaccum hold down mat and they took the time to developed and marketed very good damping feets to use it every where in a system but especially on TTs. Apart from that, AT are manufacturing ( for many years. ) professional microphones ( for studio recordings and home too. ) as headphones of every type, including electrostatic. Even manufactured speakers, TT and some electronics.

Always with a first rate quality by any standards.

Unfortunatelly AT never been took in count by all those FALSE analog " professional " gurus " " and for the corrupted AHEE where all audiophiles belongs to.

If it’s true that JVC L-1000 was one of the first cartridge manufacturer to unveiled the ART 1000 idea about to seat " there " the coils ( they did it in different way. I owned the JVC. ) the way AT choosed to do it is a patent for them and it’s not the only " new " kind of design on it but something that they did it before that’s: air core/non-magnetic coil armature that they unveils for the first time in its designs with the AT50ANV, ART7 ( no, the ART9 is a different design. ) and now the ART 1000.

This is the only top AT/Signet model I never have the opportunity to listen it. I owned/own or listened all its top models in my system.

Congratulations to own the ART 1000 that as I said is developed and manufactured by TRUE very high pedigree analog EXPERTS.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thuchan : "   it has an analogue and a digital bass amplification? "

first I appreciate to know that finally you and me can have a enriched dialogue with out try to hit one to the other as in those crazy old times. Good, maturity is very important issue in each one human been life.

Now, if there is a frequency range where analog has its weakest characteristic is precuisely in the overall bass range and if the signal is generated by the analogue alternative it does not matters what's happening after that signal generation. Problem is not in the speakers/amplifiers but from where comes and is generated the signal.

Digital alternative is way superior in the bass management. Of course and as happens in analoge there are bad digital recordings and good ones and ovbiously we are talking of the good ones in both audio worlds.The other main issue is that MUSIC is harmonics, think on this.

If any one wants to know in his home audio system how bass should sound he has to listen through digital recordings and if that home audio system has a good overall set up then he will knows is rigth through listen experiences.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thuchan : "  have the chance to hear the Palladian - not only talking from the distance without experience - I would take your comments more serious. "

maybe the problem is taht you and me are talking of different audio subjects.

What I posted as answers to your touted BASS post has nothing relative with cartridges but with BASS, this was and is the main subject in our dialogue.

You are not a stupid person as other ones and I know this for sure.

Think on the bass main subject as a MUSIC/sound  home system reproduction and that's it.

You can't never achieve a true and precise system evaluation bass qualuity performance level using analog only DIGITAL.

Got it?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thuchan : I don't care about your friends. I know you very well better that you can think and know your audio priorities and that's why I posted here what I posted.

I think that you don't want to follow with me this specific dialogue about your system and I don't want it but is up to you.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thuchan : The home audio system bass quality level performance has only tw paths: it performs good or it performs in wrong way. 

No one needs to hear this or that cartridge with this or that recording to post what you posted.
 
It's obvious for me that with that kind of post your system bass performance is not good enough and as I told you I don't even have to listen your system.

After a live event/MUSIC the only tool in a home system that we have to know if the bass is good or wrong is trhough the digiatl alternative: CD, period.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @thuchan : """  If you ever wanted to know how a bass should sound you need that combination..."""

NO, if you want to know how bass should sound what you need is to listen it in a near field position played LIVE .

What define the home system quality bass level performance is not a " cartridge/LP " combination but the overall room/system combination that at least I do not know for sure the quality you have in your system. I have only an idea because the diferent system audio links you have especially on the analog front end and speakers but in some ways electronics too.

This is for you only and with all my humble attitude and in good shape: if you want to know how should sound the bass in a home system take a fligth to my place to listen it and an additional bonus is that you can visit some interesting tourist places that exist in México.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC,
R.

Dear @fleib : As you stated: don't lost your time. Remember one of my oposts here where I made reference as that " man " was " famous " too as the audio copy-cat? and one of the examples was the horn UK speakers where they took the design and where the " proudly " owner touted in this forum their creation.

Well, that gentleman is in reality one of his boys and the one with the Thuchan moniker whom wants to convince you to try that cartridge.

Btw, where is @halcro answer about the scientific evidences he needs when even he does not knows the frequency resonance between his touted " new " cartridge and the " glorious " 66 when he does not have the cartridge dynamic compliance.

We all are waiting for you with a precise facts.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @halcro : It's incredible that in the same thread ( short time. ) any one can change its way of thinking but you did it  and you did it so easy in favor ofnothing other than to say " I'm rigth ". Let me explain it with facts from you:

"""  He constantly cites ’opinions’ as if they were ’facts’ and never supplies a shred of scientific evidence to support them. """

that is what you posted in the page 1 of your thread and something that always post when the overall subject is " raul " and as always trying to dimish everything I post.

Then in the last page and latest posts you touted those cartridge headshell mount screws and can't be more happy with and with out any single " shred scientific evidence " to support , neither,  you said or your boss said it and you never ask him for.

Not even that, but nothing that can confirm the Palladian cartridge specs or the other cartridge models AS has on sale.

Not even a critical spec on any of those cartridges about: dynamic compliance !!!!??? and if we read the site info is almost the same for each one model.

Halcro, even the very very humble Stanton 981 or AT20SS or AKG P25MD or Denon 103 or almost all the vinatge MM cartridges you own came with the chart ( fact/real test. ) with the cartridge frequency response from 20hz to 20khz where we can see its frequency deviations all over that frequency range but we can see there its separation specs too.
In those charts we can read the cartridge model and serial number, date of the tests and even whcich test record was used to.

Where, at least that, is all that simple and important critical information for a megabucks cartridge?  and more important: why did not ask to him  that " scientific evidence " of what he is talking not only with the cartridges but with each single product he has on sale?  why not? 

But there is more, not only you don't care about but you took your time to found out information by Brickman to support that " no explanations " no needs of " scientific eveidence " but only when I post something. ! ! ! ! ? ? ? ? 

So, you change your mind and way of thinking extremely easy and only to support you are " rigth " when in this same thread exist true evidence that is the other way around like here.  Can we trust in your audio opinions?  credibility?:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-palladian-a-step-beyond/post?postid=1372251#1372251


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @ : You link trying to tease me makes me laugh and I mean it, I like that you tube link that unfortunatelly helps nothing in the main subjects here. If that is your " common sense " contribution to the thread then that can explain each single word in your posts including your " review ".

Why don’t do a favor to all of us putting some ligth in the next statement you posted:


""" AS product yet they try to destroy their credibility through attacking their design attributes, """"

Any one here and elsewhere wants that you tell us in each one product which one are all its design atributes and compared with....... Could you? other product owners?

Thank’s in advance.

Btw, I told you that if I was wrong that you post and tell me where and why I'm wrong and I'm still waiting for you other than more you tube or histories that is mainly what you showed in this thread.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @ct0517 : What is so " special " in that Decca tonearm?

Please read this:


""" 

With little difficulty, I fitted a Koetsu Urushi, and it was blindingly obvious that this arm was optimised for the behaviour of a London-née-Decca. The London/Koetsu combination lacked the openness, air and power provided by the SME Series V, and this swap also revealed its one downside. Beyond, that is, its unappealing construction and styling, which hardly suggest £2.5k.

SCARY DEMEANOUR
Tersely put, the performance lacks the absolutely robust, carved-from-solid image specificity and sheer mass of the SME Series V. Bass is well-controlled and beautifully taut, but it’s missing that mammoth-stomping-on-a-caveman weight that is beloved of orchestral music lovers and Kodo-drumming aficionados. """"

Could be better than the Ikeda but the Ikeda is not something to die for, neither.

Regards and enjoy the music,

R.

Dear @halcro  : """ And without hearing the other side's version..."""

There is " no other side version ". Look, he had all oportunities on the WBF thread and as a fact he posted there but what he posted and what was his committed he never accomplished. So where till today is the " other side version " if you have it then post here.

Here additional information from one of the gentlemans that was cheated and whom losted almost 50K!!!. For you and the other " boys " is extremely easy to talk and try to say " nothing happen "  because no one of you losted not a single " dime " but I think that all of you when " defend " something about are losting a big part of the human been dignity:


""" 2.  Do you know if Audiogon DID ban him from selling under his old name?   
3.  Are they aware he never paid me the $1000 they ordered him to pay in the case i filed?
4.  I am getting evidence that the 'compressor' i bought from him and never delivered has actually been produced.It is part of the new TT he is building for people.   I prepaid $17000 in late december for this turntable, but because i was getting suspicious,i got him to place the audiogon ad for $1000 for that key piece of the TT.....the compressor.   It was a way to keep him accountable.2 weeks after i made a deposit, and before production started, i asked for a refund.   he said by end of last january would give it.  never did. and never delivered the compressor of course.   

raul,i filed a dispute and won.  he was supposed to pay me $1000 for goods not delivered or be suspended.  that was last monday.neither has happened!   """""


Til today never existed a refund to any of the cheated gentlemans. All were promises that never accomplished.

I don't care about him and I have nothing personal against him, I only post facts and information shared " everywhere " by other people.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

@bluewolf : Btw, the subject here is not what I like or not but what is wrong or rigth. To understand it and with all respect you need to learn a little more on MUSIC and audio of what you think you know.

R.

Dear @bluewolf :   "  the attacks of Messrs @rauliruegas and @fleib on his technical and ethical credibility are totally without foundation. "

Ethical Credibility:

why don't ask all the gentlemans that were cheated by him? and your statement looks as you understand nothing/not a single word of the WTF thread that was posted not for me but for the gentlemans that losted their " heavy " money.

Here you can read what in those times they email me:

"""   i think you know some things about Daniel or Dertonarm or Deitrich……alias he uses…..from his past
the rumor is tax fraud…..

on whats best forum there is a long chain under Refund Problem that is exposing him.   He has tried to defraud me of almost 50K.
i have done this reluctantly. but it is to protect the audio community from being cheated like me. I am angry at the small group of germans 
around him that knew about this, and did not expose him   and thus i became a victim.

we do not want to be uncivil on the post or they will take it down. no mud slinging, just facts. ........................................



I am disgusted with his German friends who have helped him sell to us, and who are defending him.   Never in my life have i been so fooled and 'cheated.

Raul, you say he is not stupid, that he will pay this money back because he needs his reputation cleaned up.    DO YOU REALLY THINK SO.  i doubt it.i think he will never pay us. ....................
He has a LOT OF my money, and I don't think he ever repays ANYONE.   SO I NOT THINK YOU ARE correct below, though i wish you were. .....


The last time he at my home trying to fix the lamm amps he modded and they stopped working,  and i had to send to Lamm for repair, and which he refusedto pay for…….  the last time he here, he stole about $3000 worth of WBT spades.  Put them in bags when not looking, and when i wrote him askingwhere are they????, he said he did not know.  he lied.  
so he is a thief in more ways than one.   """"


Now do you still thinking that there is no foundation other than the WBF thread?



Technical:

the links I posted to Fleib speaks as foundation of it. Do you think that he build the cartridges or design it?. There are only 3-4 real builders around the world that made the cartridges of that " top " level.

One thing is to manufacture a headshell or TT or a tube copy phono stage and other totally diferent a LOMC cartridge.



No, my posts are not an attack are facts unknowed by you and many other people. 
FACTS not posted by me, I only read it sometime ago and shared here.

You like to read my posts and Fleib ones but understand almost nothing because
 your ignorance level as many of us is diferent person by person. We all have to learn to post according to.
This is not about " emotions " as you or other person can think, all is about facts in one way or the other.

Now, please tell me with facts why I'm wrong and if I am you can be sure that will be appreciated because I always am willing to learn and NO I'm not unfriendly it's just that is the way I " talk ".  I'm not against any other human been in the world.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @fleib : """ 
I read a post somewhere that claimed, the CA protractor is flawed because the line of alignment to the arm pivots is incorrect  ...""""

and the Ortofon protractor is not better that than the CA. It's obvious that if any one makes a comparison against any accurate protractor as MINT LP, Freikfert or the smartractor all these wins showing lower overall distortion levels: not big deal. As I said very clever to puts in his site taking advantage of our ignorance level on that regards. 


"""  I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. """

First I don't want to convince cartridge owners when any one likes what they like according their music/sound ignorance levels. In the other sideI like to use common sense and let me explain about that " cartridge merits ":

any flagship LOMC cartridge in the market was voiced for its " manufacturer " and this premise always is a fact.
Now, he voiced the Palladian according with his personal " bible " he used over the years to " evangelize " every kind of audiophiles ( as the ones in his bandwagon. ) and you can read in very precise way what is write in that " bible ":

FR 66 ( as a fact he came to Agon as a " covered " FR seller ), FR 7 cartridge line ( the same. ), SUT ( seller of Jensen transformers. ), tubes and somewhere in the time horns and Orsonic headshell.

All that is what he touted here and everywhere ( he prepared the " land " with time. Clever. ). All those products are knowed today to generate higher distortions that other kind of designs.

He is accustomed to that kind of sound quality inferior level. Please tell me how could be that that voiced by him cartridge can sounds totally different?, no way. Even his " boys " that owns that cartridge confirm it with his reviews and comments about.

His real merit is that he has audio items on sale under AS company where he is the owner.

Btw, did you know that he is knowed as the audio items " copy-cat "?:


I  think his first product on sale was the headshell with the VTA/SRA mechanism that he presented as something " unique ": well that headshell has the Orsonic basic type " platform " but more " interesting " is that in reality is nothing unique on the VTA headshell mechanism.

The first true unique headshell with VTA/SRA mechanism was made it by the TT designers/manufacturer Dual ( this is a Dual's invent. ), very easy to use. This was many many years ago, you can see it here ( btw, before Dual cartridge AKG manufacturer invented the VTA/SRA mechanism direct in the cartridge body it its all time flagship model: AKG P100  LE. ):

https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=dual+vta+headshell&rlz=1C2LEND_enMX569MX569&biw=1600&...


the @bluewolf phono stage ( tubes/SUT. ) is a precise copy of an old French design.

One of his " boys " Eckart posted that he and Dietrich were in Eckart speakers design and manufacture of it. That design was and is a horns one and is a copy of a very well regarded UK propietary speaker designer/builder. 
Many of us here can remember this because some one posted the Eckart speaker picture ( Eckart was so proud that he posted his speaker picture. ) and the picture of the UK original today design!!!!

Now, we can see how easy is to make money taking advantage of each one ignorance level and good faith.

No problem with that, it happens in audio and in almost any kind of business.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @fleib : Don’t " distress with that " touted " alignment true information with facts that can prove what he said.

Let me explain on that, a little:

as I said he is more a marketing expert and " talk man " than a true analog expert.

In the past when posting here he always talks of: " the master him self " in reference to some one in Japan ( he never gave the name. ) or "" for man years every one in Japan knew that FR alignment " in reference to change the pivot to spindle distance for around 2mm. ( only a manipulation. ) but the first time he posted he gave him the primice to thing on that ( discovery by hi9m self ) but latter on and trhough the net appeared that he was liying endorsing him as the author. He always: bla, bla, bla, thinking all the people around the world are stupid or have not internet or he think no one can navegate through to read the true.

Here you can read of what I said here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368218#368218

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368205#368205

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368215#368215

all those were coments on what dertonarm osted.

We can read even on his " scientist and engeneering " so high levels here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-is-the-price-of-new-tonearms-so-high/post?postid=369362#3...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-is-the-price-of-new-tonearms-so-high/post?postid=369383#3...

in that thread kirkus hitted him too. Where are his scientist/engennering high level?.

He never showed and even today inside his products he still can’t. He is a clever person taking ( always ) advantage of audiophiles high ignorance level as his " bandwagon gentlemans ".

Look how clever. In his site he shows a comparison made it by Gecom of germany between his Smartractor and two other tractors to show that his product is " unique " and this is what we can read there:

""""

First we made a measurement of a combined alignment with the Ortofon and Clearaudio protractors. The summary klirr factor (distortion factor) was measured and weighted over the whole record side.

The result was 1.22 % distortion.

Following this we aligned the very same tonearm/cartridge combination with the SMARTractor and repeated the measurement.

The result was 0.48% distortion. """

for any rookie that was : OOH!. First that was an average measure and second the spindle hole in those protractors are wrong and they showed this:

"""

One of the least expensive protractors is from Ortofon.

With this protractor the spindle hole was way too large. """ and the other:

"""

the protractor made by Clearaudio.

The effective length of the tonearm is marked in steps of 1 mm - with a resolution of 0.2 mm.

The center drill for the spindle has significant play - approximately 0.5 mm """

MINT LP protractor that’s very inexpesive and highly accurated can meet at least that 0.48% distortion touted by him in his Smartractor. Again bla, bla, bla and more blabla.

Over his audio life that’s what he did it and not only taking advantage of my ignorance level but the in good people faith like this:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6502-Refund-problem

@chad-rutherford , interesting all those.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Btw, he said that Analog Planet is wrong about the unidin alignment comparison.

Two things there: first was not M.Fremer but Wally ( the Wallyprotractor designer. ) and second why if is something wrong ( as he stated. ) with a public comparison in a product he has on sale not go there and posted why is wrong???? at the end M.Fremer site is very well regarded.

makes sense to you?

Sitll more bla, bla, bla

Dear @bluewolf : Yes, this is a hobby and for some one of us a really serious hobby.

Btw, not here but everywhere I can't remember that some gentleman whom invested megabuks dollars in an audio item dislikes it or comment against it.

 Please, follow enjoying that: what you like because at the end what is important is exactly that and not what other people could think about.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @halcro : Knowing your siytem and sound priorities is no surprise you like those vintage MC cartrridges and the Palladian too.

You tested through one of the non damped FR tonearm and trhough a SUT along a resonant carbon fiber headshell and I know this is what you like it for several years now.

I can’t speak about the Palladian because I never heard it but because your comments I could think goes in the same " school " where you learned/study.

I think that the Palladian has to be a good cartridge, issue could be if it’s over vintage or today LOMC top performers in a way diferent set up ( especially: tonearm, headshell, no SUT, no tubes. ) as the one you, Eckart, Rutherford, bluewolf, etc, have.

I respect your opinion but ( at least I. ) always is important the context/stage/scenario that surrounded any one opinions.

Example: @bluewolf ( with all my respect to . ) shares its Palladian opinion and looking to his system I can understand the why’s about.
Btw, I found out an audio system with very similar electronics and speakers as bluewolf where the owner of it posted this. I have to say that I own that CD and my opinion is the other way around ( I'm not saying a superlative one. ) but each one of us have our music/sound priorities and these is what makes the differences in our way of thinking/opinions :

https://www.amazon.com/review/R2NGWBF2BHSFHX

Good for you @halcro and @bluewolf . I'm sure that sooner or latter I will have the opportunity to hear it somewhere. Newcomers always welcomed.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Btw, makes no sense to me ( knowing the HDM 10 and your SUT. ) not use the Palladian directly in the Halcro phonolinepreamp??????

Dear @halcro : I understand what you mean but still do not make sense to me. Let me explain it and I know that the Kondo is a good SUT:

the active high gain circuit are mainly " transparent " transistors where the signal pass. In the direct set up the signal pass only through the tonearm internal wires and the IC cable to the DM10 input but with the SUT ( transformers has " hundreds of wire m. ) the signal must pass to additional IC cables between the Kondo and the DM10.

I think that you perceive a diferent sound that like you more but not necesary " more transparent " because that silver additional IC cable degrade the signal too.

Anyway, as I said it: newcomers audio items always welcomed.

Regards,
R.

Dear @bluewolf :   """  listening credibility based on our systems and a review of a cd...... """"

As I posted:   """  always is important the context/stage/scenario that surrounded any one opinions..... """

I think you could agree with. The context here is the audio system and each single lin in the overall system chain.


"""   but I remain open to hear all approaches to hear..... """"

good you are open about. Here I go on what I learned through " hundreds " of years in our beloved hobby, just like you learned too but in a way different path and certainly with different MUSIC/sound priorities and live experiences:

other than the LP the realanalog system link star is the cartridge it self, its quality level performance that will permit enjoy MUSIC at the very top level we can achieve inside each one " context ".

Now, in an " ideal " analog audio world and for that cartridge can really shines it needs to be surrounded for cero distortions/cero resonants system links.

That's is my main system target/approach and my personal audio quest.

With that premises the very first system link to the cartridge is the headshell followed by the headshell wires/connectors followed by the tonearm wand ( tonearm it self. That's for a removable headshell tonearm design as yours and Halcro and the other gentlemans I mentioned.) and internal wiring.

Carbon fiber is a beautiful terminated audio build material but high in resonances ( means that creates higher distortions than other materials. ) and not well damped to help the cartridge job and cartridge signal reproduction. No there is no perfect build materials, all has the " abilities " to degrade the cartridge signal but we can't avoid it. The best we can do is to learn through several tests the system links that degrade less the cartridge signal this's links with low very low distortions/resonances/noise level.

Following those kind of statements the tonearm is perhaps the more critical link ( in many ways. ) for the quality cartridge level performance. Here not only the cartridges needs a tonearm that hold the cartridge and  that permits the " free " cartridge LP grooves ridding but at the same time that be a truly well damped tonearm to not contribute to add higher resonances and damps too the ones that comes through the cartridge job and this includes the damping of the tonearm self feedback resonances/distortions. Higher distortions means less real MUSIC information.

FR tonearms, 66 and 64 ( I owned and still have the 64. ), are a non damped design and this is what the designer choosed several years ago. Been a non damped all metal (steel, very igh on resonance transmision. ) design are perhaps the worst tonearms ( even worst than the SAEC's that I owned too. ) to be a " trusty " main partner to any cartridge where any cartridge mounted there only can gives us higher distorted sound.
The subject is not if that distorted sound likes me or not the subject is that that sound comes with higher distortions than in any other tonearm.

All the gentleamns involved in this thread likes a cartridge performance through the FR tonearm. Good for all of you because that's what you like but that does not means in any single way is rigth because it's not.

The next link is the TT and in your case Micro Seiki ( is something like the carbon fiber. ) TTs has a very good look that makes us owners been proudly owners with but as a MS owner I learned in deep about the MS overall design and why is not a good partner for any cartridge:

- the MS platter is and ring as a bell. Yes, the platter is heavy and shines like gold or silver. So what? when it adds distortions at higher levels than other TTs and the additional platter you use it it's only and made it a " frankestein " device but can't " dead silence " the bell and that top platter has its own resonances too.

- the MS all metal plinth is way resonant too adding, yes you know distortions by it self.

- worst issue in the MS TTs design is that the arm boards are mounted exactly in the worst place of the non damped MS design: at each foot where every single internal and external resonances/vibrations must pass and are directly transmited to the non damped arm boards.
When I bougth mine I did not know nothing of all those on MS and I like it the MS look and that I can mount four tonearm at the same time, this was " great " for me  on those old times but I learned.


Next critical system link is the phonolinepreamp where the delicated and sensitive cartridge music information must be processed and where huge distortions can be added, there is no way to dissapears that huge signal degradation.
The Phonolinepreamp has a " titanic " and almost impossible job/target that's not only amplify thousands of times the very low level cartridge signal but that needs to do it with no additional signal degradation in any way along to equalize the cartridge signal for that signal can even in precise way to the RIAA equalization with no RIAA frequency deviation ( here in the link has to be aplied the inverse RIAA curve equalization. ) for we can listen the original signal that microphones pick up during recording process.

Well, when an audio signal is amplified we have to " play "/handle at the same time with the amplification process with: generated noise levels and several ways of generated distortions and frequency limitations with. All these on ly adds degradation to the catridge signal.

Tubes can't do it and here is not the usual: tubes vs SS. NO, here it's a fact: just can't do it because tubes has higher noise levels and not enough gain to amplify the low level cartridge signal with low noise as SS devices. So, the first circuit gain stage in a phonolinepreamp MUST be a solid state device ( bipolar transistors for LOMC cartridges and FETs for MM ones. ) that has high gain with very low noise levels.
When tube designs instead of solid state devices choose for a passive gain SUTs ,as your phono design and many others out there, the challenge is not solved but agravated because SUTs has a frequency range limitations ( tubes too. ) it self and produce noise levels and distortions that goes higher than bipolars. So, is not the " rigth " solution but only a way different path with higher signal degradations.

The other critical issue is that inverse RIAA equalization process I mentioned and that through tubes or SUTs you can't beats SS well designed phonolinepreamps because that RIAA frequency deviations that create in higher ways though tubes/SUts than SS ones.

That's why I know that your system and the other gentleman's system here are making higher degradation to the cartridge signal I'm accustom to.

I like NON DISTORTED MUSIC SIGNAL against that you like it that MUSIC signal with greater distortions and that's all.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R:

Dear @halcro / @bluewolf and friends: I think your post did not contribute to help each one of us grow up in the home music/audio enjoyment. I will try to explain this statement.

AUDIO DAMPING ( CRITICAL IMPORTANCE in SOUND DEGRADATION ):

- for years tube and SS manufacturers and after market ones ( some way or the other ) were trying to damp its designs: non resonants tube circuit bases, wraps around tubes, damping tube socks, chasis/boxes with damping construction to avoid internal vibrations/resonances and the like. These manufacturers choosed the best damp footers for their products.

- TT manufacturers are not an exception when all of them give very especial attention to damp the TT motor, plinth, platter, arm board, footers, TT plattforms. Subject here is to " avoid " vibrations, resonances noise levels and the like ( internally and from exterior. ).

- Almost every single audiophile, reviewer, voicing product manufacturers always give very special attention to room interaction and how to damp it to " avoid " all kind of added distortions to the home systems.

- I’m sure that you as any other audiophile are using a platter mat after market or the manufacturer recomendation. ) or a clamp to damp it.

- Speaker manufacturers give special attention not only to the boxes build materials but to the boxes shapes in order to avoid: resonances, vibrations, standing waves, noise high levels. Even they choose to damp the speaker crossover position and some of them choosed that the speaker crossover been external by design.

- Cable manufacturers give too attention to damp their cable designs trhough the cable internal shapes and whole build materiasl used with.

- Cartridge manufacturers put estrict special attention to damps their designs and that’s why they select different cartridge body materials ( some blended. ) and cartridge shapes and kind of cartridge damping through the cartridge suspension as cantilever build materials and cantilever shape and length even the cartridge stylus kind of.

- Tonearms are not the exception but where in the last years manufacturers really take care about damping. Today exist no single well regarded tonearm manufacturer where his design is a NON DAMPED one. All are well damped ones: Triplanar, Talea, OL, SME even the humble Rega or the Cobra or the VPI. Just name it and all are damped.

- Racks/system plattforms where the designers are focus on DAMPING!!!!

- Today exist more after market items for damping that any other audio product. Must be a very good reasons for this fact!!!!!!!!!


No one needs ( but you, as said in your post. ) a scientific ways to prove the damping needs at any single link in the overall home audio systems to try add the lower kind of: resonances, vibrations, noise levels and the like that goes against the MUSIC because all those only makes heavy MUSIC DEGRADATION. The beloved undamped FR tonearm is out of question here because is totally wrong for today music/sound true and real enjoyment: it’s a huge mistake to still using it other that we like HIGH DISTORTED MUSIC/SOUND, same for MS TTs.


In the old times things were a little different but even in those times we can see that in areas as tonearms manufacturers gave very special attention to damping as are the Technics EPA 100/250 tonearms designs or the great Lustre GST-801 that even today are unbeteable in this regards. Micro Seiki MAX tonearms are very well damped too but even MS choosed for non very well damped TT and FR choosed for a non damped design, these two examples are examples of what is totally wrong in today audio items needs.

Till here all what I said are facts not " imagination " or is’t that any one reading it still think that all those latest time audio item designers/manufacturers ALL of THEM ARE WRONG ?????? because all of them are looking the best ways to DAMP their products ( including your friend. )

WHOM here still can think that the best phono stage is an all tube design instead SS or SUTs.



I think that all kind of audio discussions/dialogues as in any other life area exist because each one of us involved have different ingnorance levels, this is what makes " things " really interesting because is the way to grow up for each one of us.


""" And almost everything he thought was ’bad’.....I found to be revealing and satisfying.

So I urge you bluewolf, to do as my hero, George Costanza once famously did.......
Do the OPPOSITE of everything Raul says to do..."""



only to put some " ligth " about. In one way or the other all of us are " audio followers " from something else or some one ideas and you as me are too a follower:



- you followed my advise about the MM/MI alternative that you touted even today.

- you followed my everyone advise to use powered subwoofers in our systems.

- you followed my advise to use removable headshell tonearm designs.

- you followed my advise to use/test DD TT designs.

- you followed my evryone advise to use " naked " TT, no plinth.



I have to say that one way or the other what you followed was discussed in this forum by me way before I knew of your existence or that any one in the forum really took it seriously on each one of those subjects and many others.


I can’t see that what you made was the opposite of what are or were my advises on music/audio subjects.




""" even invented a NEW tonearm geometry ... """"



well the only human been all we know that " invented " what you named " new tonearm geometry " was in 1938 Löfgren where Baerwald latter or Stevenson and others all were just FOLLOWERS. Löfgreen A and Baerwald are exactly the same.

Stevenson invented nothing he as other people including several audiophiles as me only made or changed the input main parameters in the Löfgren original white papers/equations.

You do not know it because don’t understand in deep the Löfgren papers real meaning and that’s what your touted friend did it:

If we change the IEC standard most inner groove distance input used, this is that instead of 60.325 mm we take as input 54 mm, on calculations then we have those uni-din null points. There is no single NEW invention ( as you said. ), you even can have your personal " invention " changing input values. You can choose the values you want it and use any internet calculator ( vynil engine ones. ) and that’s it: your " invention ". Got it?


I can go on and on on what you posted but I think is ok for now.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Btw, thank’s @lewm

I forgot to tell you that the added ( any kind. ) high distortions by the FR tonearm comes not only from its all metal/steel undamped design but from the spring used in the VTF mechanism ( ringing all the time. ). Is so bad tonearm design, on damping regards, that even the arm wand is not tapered, the 66 is the worst one because its length over the 64.

Anyway, follow " enjoying " it.

R.

Dear @fleib: """"   How is an alignment an invention anyway? Find 2 nulls along the recorded part and you have an alignment. I used similar alignments 30+ years ago setting up Japanese tables.  """"

As I said to Halcro the problem is that unfortunatelly majority of audiophiles did not learned the tonearm/cartridge geometry alignment subjects/premises by Löfgren but not only audiophiles but analog " guru " professional reviewers as MF or DS ( PF. ) and several others.

The ignorance levels in this regards is really high. The Löfgreen papers are of public domain and can be used for any one with out restrictions and coming from those papers we only see " number's manipulations " as the Stevenson one but does not exist any new method for tonearm/cartridge alignment set up not even new protractors where all are the same and only has real differences on its retail prices. I'm still with the unexpensive and very accurate MINT LP protractor, we don't need anything else.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : You are only " thinking " and that's it. I only want that you remember one after market item that was designed to " drain " energy/vibrations in a fast way to damps vibrations/energy and that was the tip toes that were builded by all metal aluminum with out any kind of real damping " mechanism ". Everyone bougth it ( including me ) and time latter I fallen in count that it was not a good damping device but the other way around.

What you need is to listen ( all the same but the tonearm. ) the FR vs a well designed damped tonearm and differeces goes straigth and ca easily heard.

In the other side if your " thinking " were true then what we need are all same metal TT's designs including its plinth and platfforms where are seated. You can ask for to any TT or tonearm today designer and see what answer can gives you.

Anyway, an after your post I'm still voting for well designed damped tonearms and not " mere tip toes ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @sampsa55 : Yes, that’s why JC posted in Agon he did not like the FR ones ( I have that post. ).

He asks for " non-resonant arm pipes " ( as any single today tonearm designer but Mr. Ikeda. So, are all wrong but him?????. In the best way you can ask him or Halcro or any one you want that prove in scientific way why non damped tonearm designs are better for the quality sound levels than non-resonant arm pipes/tonearms.) where FR has resonant arm pipes because is not damped. It does not matters how fast vibrations/resonances/noises pass through it resonates and no one can do nothing about, can’t stop the feedback too. Is a mess of tonearm. Why argue in favor? when  seems to me that some of us only need to learn, that's all.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @sampsa55 : This is part of JC post I name it:

""" I agree that the FR-66S would be somewhat better than the SAEC, but truth be told, I’m not overly enamoured of the "S" family either (and I say this as the long-time owner of a 64S with Elevation Base and Arm Stabilizer). The stainless steel is great to look at, but less great to listen to, and when I run mine I prefer to keep a compression wrap around the tube. """


that " compression wrap " JC talks is a way to help damping the tonearm way resonant FR pipe.

He followed:

""" Yes, I’ve already done so with the Titan i. Likewise the Olympos. I agree that the results can be quite OK - as long as you wrap a damper strip around the armtube or take measures to dampen it better.... """

@halcro, he finalize his posts with:

"""  Finally, the headshell has a major impact on the sound, but I am sure that you are well aware of that. """


That very special build material wrap/strip was marketed by Sumiko and I owned and use it. Was extremely flexible and almost with no weigth for it self.


Almost all about damping in audio and its absolutely needs is only common sense not rocket science.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @halcro : """ Cobra...undamped in traditional sense. """

Ignorance again. One of damping paths is the tonearm build materials choosed and the Cobra use very self well damped build material ( similar to the VPI 3d. ). Did you heard about arm pipe tapered tonearm design and the why’s of it?: tonearm shape is other paths of damping as appears in the Cobra one.

In the other side your comment on @jcarr works :

"" Despite the obvious knowledge of Jonathan Carr.....his Lyra cartridges are amongst the poorest I have heard in my system....""""

reflect only what you like: SOUND REPRODUCTION WITH HIGH DISTORTIONS, AS HIGHER THE BETTER.

Everywhere in your system tell us and your post after posts confirm it.

Why follow spreading that kind of ignorance level of what must be MUSIC enjoyment???

No one I respect and know as a true music lover and true audiophile spreaded that kind of comments on those great Lyra cartridge designs or puts in doubt the @jcarr professional and very high knowledge levels and skills on cartridge design or almost any other audio subject he has and made that comment only in favor to tell here that you are rigth when you always are wrong on those regards!!!!!!

Obviously that you did not think in that your " comment " on Lyra cartridges affects in no single way the credibility of JC but yours , that now is exactly where it belongs: AT CERO

Please do it a favor and think not only in what you posted in this thread but what you post/spread everywhere. Where are the benefits for any one on  it?


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : Stop to laugh because as always I only try to help, not vitriolo even if it looks as that.

Everything in audio/music is about any kind of distortions levels. The main difference between your home audio system and any other gentleman’s system is the distortion levels on each audio system.
Those kind of distortions levels can or not reflect the owner music/sound priorities and I said that " can or not " because you can or not really aware of all those kind of distortions and this depends on your audio self life training to detect all those kind of distortions levels or only a few.

That is precisely what could be happens in your next statement you posted:

""" Evidently, you had a different experience. This could be due to a difference in cartridge or headshell or in the construction of the tonearm mount. """

It has nothing to do with what you think but with what I posted here.

@bluewolf can’t understand how I can give an opinion on other gentleman’s systems that I never heard it and this is because he has not ( yet ) the precise training/experiences to know it but I can know that his system as the thread OP and what they posted reflect those high distortions levels that they are not yet aware of.

To learn we must be not only open to do it but try not stay sticky of what we own or what we learned through audio life.

Changes are not an easy way/path to follow but a must to grow up. We need to change to learn. Changes means not only about audio items but more important each one attitude.

Here in my country people say: "" the worst deaf/blind man is the one that does not want to ear/see. ""


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

deaf or blind...  hear or see.

Dear @fleib : """  So far, there is no perfect cart and I doubt if this is..."""

No, it's not. Perhaps cartridges are one of the audio system links where from almost started its design does not changed :

The essence of the cartridge design did not changed in the last 60+ years, in reality it's almost the same. The cartridge motor still are: LOMC, MM, MI, etc., still are using almost the same suspension design/dampers, cantilevers ( even in the past better ones with the berrilyum build material, diamond or saphire. Today the best cartridges use boron that was used on the vintage cartridges and in those times boron was used as tube not rod like today, tube is a lot better. ), today still use of Shibata or special ellipthical or Micro Ridge or VdH stylus tip, the LOMC vintage ones are a lot better trackers than the top today ones and this sole fact means that the vintage cartridges pick up more music information than today ones an at the same time means lower distortions. Today on cartridges there is nothing really new but very high prices.

 Even in the past existed better ways to do that: electret or electrostatic designs that today no one use and even almost no one knows about. Cartridge body materials does not changed: titanium, ceramic, aluminum, wood and the like are the same.

The magnets used and in use today are nothing new because platinum, neodinyum, samarium cobalt and syntetic ones ( that use today Dynavector. ) comes from 40-50 years ago. Same happens with the internal coils wire: cooper, silver, gold or blended materials nothing of this is new.

One day I ask me what am I buying ( I was a " frenetic " buyer on today cartridges. ) ?  better cartridges? not really, better quality performers? not really, cartridges that outperforms the other  I bought? not really. Every single question I made the answer was nothing really totally new, sometimes what we have is something diferent and perhaps one single quality level cartridge characteristic but no single " today " cartridge came or comes with all better cartridge quality characteristics. Then I stop to buy the " cartridge of the month ".

Today the real experts on cartridge design/manufacturers are the ones dedicated expressely to design only cartridges and this fact made it that why they are the only true cartruidge experts designers.

We have names as Ortofon ( the LOMC piooner manufacturer for more than 60+ years. Here is experience and not only on cartridges but they were and are really experienced on cutter heads designs of world fame . ) or Dynavector or Benz Micro or Vandenhul or J.Carr ( that even designed for companies orther than his own Lyra cartridges ). All them still works very hard trying to present something new some true and real cartridge evolution but the cartridge it self " essence " did not permited till today. Yes, all of them today has better quality performers but nothing really new. There is no new cartridge technology, new kind of generator/transducer principles.

On paper the Palladian shows nothing new but old and if I follow the OP review then I know for sure how it performs and I know is more of the same and only the new kid on the block.

Regards and enjoy the music,

R.

Dear @dover : You posted to richardkrebs:   """  That statement is not correct... """

and he posted:  """  Because if the movement of the cantilever (at the stylus end) is not the same, then the stylus is not following the groove..."""

things are that never is the same because the stylus cartridge follows the grooves in tiny different ways. 

Compliance, cartridge cantilever/stylus effective mass and output are different as is each cartridge tracking abilities, amplitude can't be exactly the same.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @dover :  """  Halcro you have suggested before that effective mass does not have an impact before but you are wrong...""""

obviously totally wrong but is not his culprit, things are that he just can't hear it: it's now aware of it. This is the problem with this gentleman is that unfortunatelly is a self negation/deny for him and just is not willing to change, willing to learn.

Dover, what you said about you and every single true audiophile learned when we studied  audio in the very first steps: kindergarden.

Some of us are way sticky to " something " and we can't do nothing to be unglued.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @fleib : Here are the calculations to achieve those null points that every one can have and use in any tonearm:

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_calculator_pro.php?arm1=Arm+1&l1=el&a1lv=270&am...

you can read the null points values in the number charts under Löfgren B status.

@halcro there is the " invent " of your " friend " !!!!!!!!. As usual with: a fraud.

Now, that you know how to do it you can play " inventing new " kind of alignments.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @fleib : """  Given your criteria for a great cart (sounding live), you might like the Acoustical Systems offerings? """

NO, I do not and for very good reasons:

knowing the audio history of the AS owner his products is and reflects ( can't do in a diferent way because if diferent then all what he personally  " touted " was totally a lier/false ) his music-audio preferences/priorities: mega-heavy weigth BD TTs, love for FR 66 tonearm performance quality level, tube and SUT technology on electronics, etc, etc, and his extremely high marketing level along : bla, bla, bla, bla with out evidence that can prove what he said/say ( here on Agon he never gaves any single " scientific " evidence of what he " touted " and when he always said he had a very high scientist/engeneering levels. ).

The today members of his " bandwagon " here in Agon and elsewhere in the net are the same for years. Ignorant people about real and true music/sound reproduction, nothing more.

The reviews here reflects exactly that, all them including him : LOVES VERY HIGH DISTORTIONS .

In the next links we can read what true cartridge designer experts contribute and contributed ( real knowledge levels and its own growing up history with real facts as foundation. ) through many many years doing that, even VDH invented the VDH stylus profile/shape: VDH 1 and VDH 2 that are under patents. Read this and read the Palladian description and you and any one else can understand what I mean about:

http://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges/mc-anna/magnet-and-damping 

http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/frame.html 

http://benzcartridges.com/products/gullwing-s/ 

http://lyraanalog.com/atlas/   

http://www.vandenhul.com/products/phono/the-colibri


Btw, any one can " make " a new cartridge: you, Halcro or me can do it, just ask one of the few builders out side as Scan-Tech and that's it: the new FLEIB cartridge flagship.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.