I had the same conversation with Josh Meredith at CARDAS (Hubby of CEO Angela Cardas-Meredith ,,,) before I bought my eventual CARDAS speaker cables to support my CLEAR cables array (XLR IC’s, power…) , it was a surprising recommendation choice : CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION over CLEAR BEYOND or CLEAR models. Who,knew?
IN SHORT: it is ENTIRELY system and room acoustics dependent
IN DETAIL:
I had a new listening room situs with large windows along a long wall that now impacted my audio pleasure, The first reflection points and “glare” were now a PITA.
Josh explained that he had the same issue in his own home…lotsa glass window Wall(s);…acoustic warts needing a proper address . . He intuitively started with a full Monty introduction of CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND but with glare questions, and then faced off with CARDAS CLEAR speaker cables …. Neither solved the listening room warts issue,
His CARDAS engineers suggested that he step down to CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables with a slightly “warmer” bespoke sonic signature paired up with CLEAR BEYOND ICs in his home .…. WOW ….Problem finally solved with no loss in detail, dynamics, or slam.
Josh reinterated that the CLEAR and CLEAR BEYOND models are incrementally “better” models to consider IF AND ONLY:
- you actually have the ultra high-end system upstream worthy of their model choice as a proper system synergy matching , ( there is a reason why CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND / CLEAR and NORDOST ODIN / VALHALLA dominate in the audio shows ,,,,)
- he reinforced that your bespoke listening room acoustics influences need to be fully assessed first. $$$$ alone spent blindly in isolation hoping for that superior audio performance is a misguided approach, (….hoping is not a strategy …).The litmus test He found out himself in his own home.
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TAKE: ….me too …CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION IN MY SYSTEM rules
I was upgrading from a full loom of NORDOST FREY and I followed his recommendation to assess the glass wall acoustics warts first , just like he did .
CLEAR REFLECTION was a step-up that tamed the glass wall “glare” with no loss of legendary CARDAS top-shelf detail, slam and dynamics ….full stop.
YOUR TAKEAWAY
-I would resist a blind assumption that an automatic best of breed in their very top model for your system and listening room ..,one size does NOT fit all….
- Audition options if possible first ….
Then Choose wisely.
FOOTNOTE
Personslly, I found that a full loom/array of CLEAR with my CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables works best. CARDAS CLEAR ( insert model) power cables bested other contenders and pretenders, and added an incremental step up in audio performance for me .,.. FWIW
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Thank you. Akg_ca much appreciated . I have no glass and plenty of room panels
have a warmer dac and Pathos2 Inpol mk2 integrated Class A Amp that uses the tubes as a buffer and front tubes preamp .
since I just installed the Cardas Clear beyond XLR cable how long is runin time on these I have 40 hours, .My main question is sonically how much difference between The clear,and clear beyond if it sounds pretty good with the wire world awg Ecplise loudspeaker cable. I can get a demo pr of clear for 60% off retail l
thank you for all your help !!
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I would select the CLEAR as the preferred / sweet spot over paying the significant Ka-Ching! added drain on your wallet in order to step up the CLEAR BEYOND speaker cables It’s the identical copper materials and sheathing …. its double the diameter thickness.
“Price is what you pay ….VALUE is what you get.” - Warren Buffett .
You don’t specifically mention your streamer source, dac, or your speakers models , but your amp is a fine quality build choice. We all know that cables are important pieces in system synergy , but the inescapable law of diminishing returns on moving up the food chain - and especially for cables - always rules.
MY TAKE:
I highly doubt that choosing a CLEAR BEYOND speaker cable step-up from CLEAR will provide you with an “Aha!” or “Jesus Moment “ audio performance improvement. ,,( if any … emphasis added )
So if it’s an ethereal added detail, slam, or dynamics you are seeking …think stepping up in your source(s).
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Run -in time on CARDAS Cables ….I can only report on my direct personal experiences. Yours may be different.
My experience:
- it’s a series of incremental steps with pauses in between. overall,
- it’s well over 200+ hours ..I kind of lost count after a while with the staggered step program highlighted following.
- it was never a linear progression . Rather it would flatten out for a time at a new plateau …. and then sound a “bit better” , and the trends continued for a series of ad hoc indeterminate periods…. until it kinda “planed off “.
- My not-insignificant run-in time on these high-end cables was mirrored in like form by the 400+ hours recommended by SIMAUDIO on their MOON streamer / dac / network player
My take: I highly doubt that CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND will offer ANY perceptible audio performance upticks over CARDAS CLEAR speakerscables in your system.
The improvements - if any - I predict from the CLEAR BEYOND will be comparably minuscule and only perceived as minute ones in a direct bake-off in your system, and conducted in your listening room. I would not drink any KoolAid that touts them as an automatic magic silver bullet on the Yellow Brick Road to Audio OZ based on doubling of price and and a doubling of their mass .
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Post Script wild card :
If you do indulge yourself by choosing the double-price CLEAR BEYOND speaker cables , then think longer term about the contributing longer-term factors influencing your decision matrix :
Because they are significantly more expensive ( think double cost … ) and a hefty investment at an eye-watering price for most:
- If they don’t stir your drink now, or if you change system components suggesting a move to new cables to sustain system synergy; think about likelihood of being able sell them without suffering a significant haircut on your initial investment. Most AGON-ers may shy away from them regardless.based on price ….even resale price.
- Without prejudice to the significant cost factor above , your bespoke lengths (currently unspecified … ) may not suit a majority of prospective buyers in the resale forum ( too long , too short, replacement connectors etc,)
- AND ENSURE that you get a CARDAS Certificate of Authenticity ( “COA” ) regardless if purchased new or pre-owned .CARDAS won’t reterminate them for plug or length retermination without and may likely seize and destroy any counterfeit or fake units (….innocent or otherwise ….) .
Note: with their twin patented nautilus-like complex strand weave, they are not a DIY or inexperienced option to alter and need done at their factory.
Go to their website about their fraud cables blurbs. A lot of even preowned units are inferior build fakes with lame excuses for lacking a COA.
CARDAS will cheerfully give a preliminary non-binding guessed assessment of authenticity via pics, ….and better still …. provide a binding full assessment a replacement COA if sent back to them for their inspection..
Just sayin’ ….
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Speculation be damned. The only thing that really matters here is which cables sound best to you in your audio system, and the only way to know for sure which cables will sound best in your set-up is to audition both of them in your audio system. Best value is always great, but the best sound quality while still being within your budget is the goal. Happy listening.
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Beware the blind “hot deal” CARDAS cables purchase temptation without a sampling alternatives of actual audition trial, or physical inspection: and assessed seller reputation, and especially lacking a supplied COA.
CARDAS informed me that an estimated 25% of their cables ads are inferior cheap build fakes with lame comparative performance .
Here is a simple sample of fake versus authentic on a sample model:
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DARKO gives a YOUTUBE tutorial about the significant merits of selecting CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND speaker cables .
“ This is the BEST video about LOUDSPEAKER CABLES that you will see all year…”
https://youtu.be/PW3QHfH9Nho
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Thank you 🙏 for your experiences with Cardas and help.
the clear beyond interconnects I got for 55% off and same with clear speaker cable
I am getting from my dealer ,these were show demo models with smudged print
to Cardas a blemished , my Dealer is a Authorized Cardas dealer I couldnot pass up the bargain ,the interconnect Alone with onky 50 hours much better then the $1500 AQ interconnect ,
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You could borrow the cables from the Cable Company and see what works best in your system and room. For my surround sound system I use Clear Reflection but for my stereo system I use a mix of Clear Beyond and Shunyata Comp Sigma II. I tried a full loom of the Shunyata but the combination with the Cardas sounded better to me.
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Prior to my existing system I experiment with cables from the cable company. I was looking at the Clear Reflection interconnects. It turned out that one was great while two warmed the sound too much for my taste. I went with one in my system. I borrowed a lot of cables. I didn’t get to the clear price range so I can’t provide a comparison point there.
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Has anyone compared Pangea Audio’s, SE RCA’s and XL XLR’s which use Cardas grade one copper, to any of the Cardas models? If yes, how did they compare?
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While I can't speak specifically in regard to Clear and Clear Beyond, I did extensive demo's of all manner of cables over many years through lending library at CableCompany. This with mid/high tier to near top of line from so many brands, AC, IC, speaker, digital. So what do I end up with after so many years of cable auditions, good old Cardas Golden Reference have remained my workhorse cable for IC and speaker cables, can't go wrong with a nice balanced sounding cable, there are more spectacular sounding cables, but you end up changing them out all the time due to other changes in system. Here is involved discussion in regard to Cardas from WBF, https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/cardas-audio-cables.29157/
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,,,,,Stringreen ???? .......you there Stringreen ???? This about your time to chime in on Cardas cables !!
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Pangea SE MK-2=only use Cardas grade 1 copper on one of the main leggs and in much smaller gauge ,it’s a good selling point though , I owned them ,and still may have one to my LPS power supply
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I just wish ONE of these cable makers would have the balls to explain the engineering and scientific methodology they used to design their cables!! If I’m not mistaken, Cardas is one of the few that says they utilize trial and error to find combinations of wires that actually yield a difference in sound. They still can’t explain the science!……
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@boostedis
CARDAS has two main factors :
(1) their proprietary best of breed copper .
see https://www.cardas.com/cardas-copper
(2);Design, process and engineering.
- deep dive into their cables https://www.cardas.com/deep-dive
- CARDAS latest patent
George Cardas continued to work on cable designs, most recently receiving US Patent US7674973B2 for what we call the Matched Propagation Conductor. This conductor matches the propagation rate of the signal in the conductor, which is essentially light speed, to that of the dielectric materials, which are generally 30% slower than the speed of light.
This mismatch has plagued audio cables since the beginning of the telephone age, causing smeared, unintelligible audio over long distances. Telephone companies attempted to solve the issue using loading coils, developed by Mihajlo Pupin in the early 20th century. George’s solution is much more graceful - and effective - utilizing specific wire-winding pitches and carefully selected dielectric materials, eliminating the issue within the cable, and continuously throughout the cable.
Our Matched Propagation Conductors are used in all of our cables within the Clear range, which includes Clear Sky, Clear Cygnus, Clear SE9 MP, Clear Reflection, Clear, and Clear Beyond.
Go look up their patent in the patents registry office to get further published deets or other reference materials,
- failing this, g email Josh Meredith at CARDAS and get a perspective from the source .
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@akg_ca
Thanks you for the information, it goes MUCH further than most of the Megabuck cable manufacturers (Nordost).
I understand the interaction between conductor and dielectric as it mostly relates to capacitance and how that can affect the audio signal. My real issue is the differences that are claimed and cost to get there. IMO, people blow right past one of the biggest makers of commercial copper wire who has supplied to the Telecom industry and NASA, etc. where absolute fidelity is way more important than for hobbyists. That company being Belden. They will take a deep dive with you on what matters and why. I even suspect that a LOT of boutique cable companies are actually using Belden wire and twisting it in exotic ways and with dubious results.
I’m only partially a ‘measurements means everything’ person, but I do believe in the scientific method and when companies can’t explain their methodology behind product development, it says they really didn’t use one and the outcome was a stab in the dark and their results might not be able to be faithfully reproduced because they don’t even know how they got to the end result.
Thanks for listening.
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@boostedis
Doing a deep dive into NORDOST is going to be note difficult. NORDOST technology was originally not starting out as audio cable company ,
Nordost’s roots were in the Military, Medical and Aerospace industries. It gives the company access to the most advanced materials technologies known to man.
as you read on, I don’t have the background to properly discuss or even decode the technical terms and patented processes they describe .
Its first audio product, the Flatline Gold speaker cable introduced in 1992, is a perfect example of this, deriving technology originally used by NASA for their space shuttle program which resulted in a cable that was extremely durable with a geometry that offered impressively low capacitance and inductance while achieving very high signal speeds.
For more than three decades now, Nordost has continued to push the envelope of cable design and technology, in turn improving the performance of audio systems around the world using Nordost’s patented Micro Mono-Filament technology,
https://nordost.com/downloads/multiLanguage/odin_brochure_english.pdf
Ever since the launch of the first audio products in the early 1990s, Nordost has always insisted on the highest quality, extruded FEP for use in cables’ dielectric and jacketing.
FEP has many advantages; primarily, it is the most consistent and best performing dielectric material available, with the exception of air; which is where micro mono-filament technology comes in.
The micro mono-filament technology is a process developed by Nordost to reduce the effect of the insulation material. It uses a thread of FEP which is helically wound over each highly polished conductor. A precision FEP jacket is then extruded over the thread and the conductor. A number of proprietory methods are used in this difficult and extremely precise manufacturing technique.
Now that we understand the construction of a genuine Nordost cable, it’s simply not easy to make. We can see that the counterfeit fake Chinese cables DO NOT have the technology and manufacturing technique, and it is very costly to duplicate the same construction. Therefore, the counterfeit inferior cable can only duplicate its appearance.
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@akg_ca
Thanks again for the deep dive! I listen to Nordost cables frequently but I did not know their background in Aerospace and Defense. Maybe I picked the wrong cable manufacturer to pick on?!… lol.
I know that well made and purpose built cables are expensive to make which is exactly why I’m dubious of ‘some’ of the brands making extraordinary claims because they do not have the wherewithal to do the R&D, testing and manufacturing. I am not including Cardas in my rant because I know they have been at this for a long time.
Thanks again for the info.
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