Usuallly I am killing for money but because you are my friend....
The Palladian-A step beyond
The new cartridge from Acoustical Systems may finally be the LOMC to fully realise the theoretical advantages of the genus.
And convince those long-suffering audiophiles to whom the 'modern' MC presentation has been anathema to 'live sound'....that the realism of vintage LOMCs like the SPUs and FR-7 series has finally been recaptured 👀
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And convince those long-suffering audiophiles to whom the 'modern' MC presentation has been anathema to 'live sound'....that the realism of vintage LOMCs like the SPUs and FR-7 series has finally been recaptured 👀
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391 responses Add your response
Hi Thuchan the Kuzma came after the ET2. To the casual observer they look similar, but are two very different designs and need to be set up differently. The biggest differences, the Kuzma’s smaller manifold moves and the ET’s larger manifold does not. The Kuzma needs its airline tubing and wiring for damping, the ET does not. However the ET’s Achilles heel for the basic setup is in how the wiring is laid out to fit on many tables for business sales. The first thing all advanced setups do is use single shot wiring direct to the phono. The other big difference is that the ET2 is unique with all tonearms in the way one sets VTF. The biggest technical setup errors IMO come in this area. The ET has high horizontal inertia and medium vertical. It is very important due to the vertical leaf spring counterweight (and resonances in play ) to use the weights in a manner as described in the manual, to achieve the highest vertical inertia for the best bass. Next you tune the leaf spring I beam, for cart compliance, much like a suspension on a car with single, double ,triple leaf springs. No pro reviewer ever achieved this level of set up with this tonearm. Yet everyone on the ET2 thread is educated on it. Reviewers I assume do not like to read manuals. :^( fwiw In emails with Dertonarm years ago he went wrong in this area of setting VTF with the bass performance. Very easy to do if one is used to a pivot arm where you slide the weight forward closer to the bearing to get more VTF. You need to go the opposite way with the ET 2.0 and 2.5. It was awkward for me to discuss this with him at the time as he was already past this point, and on his analog mission. I actually asked King Nikola to bring the conversation up to him on another thread recently. ************** Thuchan For a design like the Kuzma I would not use a high compliance cart for reasons I mentioned above. With a properly setup ET 2.0 or 2.5, you can play whatever cartridge you like. "the lateral forces are .1 gm. compared to .2 gm on a conventional arm. These figures apply if you do not play records that are not severely out of round. If you like to play severely eccentric records, ones with run out greater than 1/8 ", then we suggest you use a low mass pivot arm" taken from ET 2 manual - Page 47 - Antiskating and Frequency Modulation Distortion Section. ************** So you can use any cart you like with the ET 2.0 and 2.5. But if you are an MC type guy you should acquire the 2.5. The 2.0 was introduced when MM’s were the most popular. If I can say one more thing and it very important. The ET 2.0 and 2.5, like to be on a plinth that uses a pillar style armboard as opposed to flat plinth. The reason for this is the ease to which a "happy face’ wire loop can be employed. It offers the least resistance. Like I said the wiring is the "Achilles Heel" in regards to setup. If you do set it up I look forward to your observations. Please post observations on the ET2 thread. Cheers |
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Dear Nandric, I do respect that some friends do not like Lyras. I got different experiences with them, good ones. You are on the wrong track when you think I would compare the Atlas with the Palladian. You might read on my blog what I do think about the Palladian, the Atlas, the Olympos and the Titan i. No reason to show "I am the Peter" or "you are the Paul". I enjoy carts but also suffer from owning too many. So yes, maybe I will sell some in the next time. It's Xmas time maybe thinking about donation? Which one you will send Raul and which one to Fleib? Fleib may have lowered his starting options by the last post...? |
Dear Ct0517, I just hooked up my Kuzma Airline with a fantastic compressor, the Dürr Sicotec, also suplying my Caeles air bearing table. I am considering using my ET-2.0 as a second arm on the Caeles too. What I learned regarding linear trackers: it might be not the best choice using carts with rubber parts due to the heavy side movements. I am happy with the Zyx 4 or the Zyx Universe, never considered mounting my Decca London Reference. And in fact it might be worth to give it a try. |
Halcro http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/london-reference-pickup-arm/ is that dealer located near you Henry ? I run a custom ET 2.5 straight tracker. It has patents. Mine is a custom built unit from Bruce Thigpen. It also has this special joint part that we call the Gooseneck, that I was able to acquire from your neighbor New Zealand, courtesy of Richard Krebs. Also a custom ET2 straight tracker user. fwiw My tonearm has been, with the exchange of appropriate armwands and leaf springs for compliance tuning, able to handle everything from a lightweight Sonus Blue Gold to the XV1. So not worried about the Decca. As long as the records off-center is decent, and the air really good, the arm can handle anything mounted to it. |
Dear Chris, Your bartering skills are worthless. You should know that our Halcro is ''some Aussie'' and not an Arab. But if you own some of those Patek Phillip watches or old Porsches I am sure that you can get his Decca. He obviously has many hobbies all of them pretty expensive so the ''bartering art'' means to find the right exchange items. I don't believe that camels will do regardless of their quantity. |
you ask many questions Henry. Maybe you could start a Decca thread ? My situation is such that the American Parent Company shut down our Canadian Operation, some 5 years now. Since then, I am still not able to find good local work in my field. This has forced me to hone my bartering skills. Now I offered 6 camels for a Palladian, but was advised by Czar Nikola that Dertonarm was not interested. Apparently because they can hold drink better than him. I do realize it can be frustrating if one needs to get up and take a piss, just before those Canon shots are about to go off in your room. :^( I also do imagine that real Canon shots have been responsible for many pissed pants in the past. So I make the same offer to you. 6 camels for your Decca. :^) |
(To be honest, Henry’s "lack of" response to my offer to buy his Decca earlier, makes me think it is the later....... ) Haha..... You may be right Chris...😝 But why do you want the London Decca Reference? Have you heard one...? And what arm would you put it on? I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone running it on a straight tracker.. That could be interesting.....🤔 |
So @ the Cart collectors on this thread who also own this cart. Nandric, Thuchan, Halcro.....others ? Has this cart induced you into having a holiday sale of your collections; or is it just another expensive addition? (To be honest, Henry’s "lack of" response to my offer to buy his Decca earlier, makes me think it is the later....... ) |
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Analoglver, AS fans, boys and girls, I've been making inquiries about the claims regarding Acoustical Systems and Dietrich Brakemeier. That's why I remained on this thread long after it was about the cartridge. Looking at the What's Best Forum thread I think we can safely dismiss most of the talk about unfair record trading practices and similar. What is of concern is the approximately $50K claim documented in Raul's email. This appears to be from the actual person who ordered a preamp, then cancelled the order before delivery. The information supplied by different parties looks genuine and matches up. The original claim is at least four years old and the person has not responded to my inquiries. I think I have allowed sufficient time for a response, but if that person is incapacitated in some way and can not respond at the moment, there is legal recourse. I don't know if there are time limits on that, but I think the question is moot. Regards, |
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Dear Fleib, By my FR-7f listing I used Mitch Cotter as argument or praise for my item. But as far as I know he also made his own SUT for his celebrated TT with FR-66 tonearm /FR-7 f cart. This looks to me not consistent with your statement that he ''made some great preamps early on''. Do you mean ''preamp'' in the usual sense and not ''phono-pre''?
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I wonder what the verb to google, is worth to that company. Vaseline is petroleum jelly, not napalm or some plastic made from oil. The discussion of intellectual property seems timely, not that there's anything here worth pursuing, not like billions in movie copyright infringement. Mitch Cotter made some great preamps early on. He split from Verion in the late '70's I believe. I didn't have much experience with those electric blue wonders, but what I heard sounded like music. This is a Boston Audio Society from '77.
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Nandric, I am relying upon my memory of what was available to audiophiles of the 1970s. The Mark Levinson pre-preamplifier was nothing but a separate phono gain stage that did not "do" RIAA equalization; all it did was to add gain to the output from a low output MC cartridge. This, in fact, was Mark Levinson's very first commercial product, I think. The product filled a niche in the market, because there were very few alternative ways to amplify the output of an MC sufficiently. The output from the (solid state) ML device was then fed to the input of an MM phono stage, because RIAA correction (and a little more gain) was needed. Thus, I was not being eccentric when I fed the ML output into my MM phono. (Actually, I never bought into MC at that time, and I never owned the ML pre-pre; I heard them in other systems.) The other notable "pre-preamplifier" that came along a little later in the USA was the Counterpoint SA-2. Also an active gain device, but one that used tubes and was therefore noisy but better sounding than the ML. Maybe the early Denon and Ortofon SUTs were available back then, but I don't recall that they had gained popularity as yet. There are still one or two pre-preamplifiers on the current market. Hagerman make one of them. Once again, you are double-spaced. Very stylish. |
Dear Lew, There are people who take what they want while other prefer to wait till they get something for free. But who would believe that our only homo universalis would try to use an MC cart with an MM pre? On the other hand there is no suprise that he dear to complain about this same fact; he is always complaining about something or other (grin). |
What I want to know is, why are Nandric’s posts always double-spaced, whereas the rest of us only get single spacing? Could this be a hangover from his days as a professor? Does he want to leave room for us to take notes? It is interesting to read that the Supex was felt to be the start of the "MC Revolution" in Europe, as well as in the USA. When it first arrived here in the mid-1970s, I heard it via the use of a Mark Levinson pre-preamplifier into a MM phono stage. There were few or no SUTs available back then. In my opinion at that time, my Grado TLZ blew away the Supex, which did not sound at all "musical" to my ears. And yet now the Supex is a collector’s item. It wasn’t until the late 1980s or early 1990s that I "drank the Kool-Aid" and became a convert to MC cartridges. |
Looks like I made another mistake. Of course, it was a Hurst shifter on the Chevy. It was before 6:00 AM .... Bluewolf, you have 30 posts on this forum and you use the royal "we" ? I am not amused. This is serious business, much more important than someone's well being? The Mercedes Formula 1 car you talked about earlier in this thread looks good @ 900 HP although it could not compete in the Baja. Maybe you missed the part in the review - generators are made by a major West European mfg. What do you think I was talking about with that true story? |
To the Great Cabal, do everyone here a favour and follow
your own advice!!!
@fleib “Not sure why I'm wasting time here.” @rauliruegas “Dear @fleib : As you stated: don't lost your time.”
We will survive so so well without two people who have zero interest in the subject and only wish to troll. |
Raul, glad to see you're back. Nice post - focused and concise. Halcro does not need a road map to find the way home. No, Brakemeier did not reinvent the phono cartridge, but it looks like he did everything right. Why should he spend time building the motor when Ortofon, VdH, whoever, can build it to spec for him? Years ago my wheel man had a '68 Chevy Z-28 Trans America road racer. This was factory custom ordered set up for the Baja. It was aluminum alloy from head to toe (rear) w/ 3/4 race cam. The Holly 4-bbl was the size of the block. You could stick your fist down each barrel. It had a close ratio 4 speed, Holly shifter, clutch like a tow truck, and a 25 lb. spring on the gas pedal so you didn't blow it up. Sucker red lined at 7K rpm - did 60 mph in first gear. I drove it home one night cause dude was in space. I did 165 - my personal high and I still had pedal left. Got home pretty quick too. Best regards to you and your family this holiday season, |
Dear thuchan, ''never ending story''? There are two whole months since I bought my last cart. Rauls ''MM'' contra revolution imply (sorry Flieb) some revolution. You are my much younger twin (Bond) brother but surely can remember the MC revolution ? It started with the first Supex version. This imply (sorry again Fleib) some kind of consenus among the participants in this revolution. My Sumiko 800 ( the ''better Breuer'') is designed with 6 counter weights but the most owners have just one. Back then people owned just one cart and depending on the cart weight the right Sumiko weight was provided by the dealers. The idea being to get each cart as near to the pivot as possible. So carts from 6g till 22 g could be adjusted with those weights. Collecting carts is then obvious some kind of (psychological) deviation. The primary reason probably membership of whatever forum. If some crazy member got the idea to own TWO carts the rest could not afford to stay behind. That is how this megalomanic paranoia started. As an innocent novice I was brainwoshed in such way that I collected +40 MM carts despite the fact that I always prefered the MC kind. My modesty does not allow to say how many(grin). I think that you as my (much) younger brother should have more respect for your (little) older brother and consequently post to me at least two of those damn expensive titanium screws. BTW I had no idea that titanium is more expensive than gold. With exception of course of those guys by NordOst who suceeded to turn copper into gold . Qua price that is.
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Fleib, No idea why you posted the video. Some might say it's cruel, others will recognize the fight of animals. You are right the performance of the cart is not dependent on the protractor. It is about the correct alignment of the arm which enables you to enjoy music in different ways. Believe me I have seen people driving wonderful carts in arms which where not perfectly aligned. I can hear the difference, maybe you too. I also realized that the guys always talking about distortions are the least capable of handling the issue. They usually approach it in a lassier fair manner and do wonder why it doesn't sound (that's why they always hear distortions!) but it is technology, a good tool like the AS protractor and experience which lead to a good result. |
Dear @fleib : As you stated: don't lost your time. Remember one of my oposts here where I made reference as that " man " was " famous " too as the audio copy-cat? and one of the examples was the horn UK speakers where they took the design and where the " proudly " owner touted in this forum their creation. Well, that gentleman is in reality one of his boys and the one with the Thuchan moniker whom wants to convince you to try that cartridge. Btw, where is @halcro answer about the scientific evidences he needs when even he does not knows the frequency resonance between his touted " new " cartridge and the " glorious " 66 when he does not have the cartridge dynamic compliance. We all are waiting for you with a precise facts. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Thuchan, Did you watch the you tube video? Maybe you didn't like it, but I did. So it goes with just about anything that requires a value judgment. From the beginning of this thread I didn't question the performance of the cart. After reading what Halcro had to say here and on another forum I knew it was good. So what? What I object to is underhanded tactics and inaccurate analogies by the AS fan boys on this thread. Are you saying the performance of the cart is dependent on the protractor? I think not. I don't care what's the best selling in Germany. Maybe a Volkswagen is the best selling car in Germany. I don't care. I think there are other value judgments where we differ. Some people like the FR64S. I think it's a second rate arm. Bottom line - if the protractor makes you happy, good for you. Regards, |
Fleib, dealing with carts may be a never ending story. Halcro and Nandric, Lew and many other serious audiophiles are facing the same challenge. What we could do is selling some and concentrate only on our favourites but...Yesterday I listened to the Lyra Atlas on my Caeles table (true airbearing design). After that I could tell everyone why it is necessary to have the Atlas. I love it! A similar experience I had when I listened to the Palladian. I was very sceptical if it would give me more information than the other AS designs? It did. This is really a new design. I doubt that I would meet someone driving the Palladian and not becoming fascinating by the Live Sound it produces. You need to hear this to believe! I am using the AS protractor, the big one. After all my previous protractors this is the one which made me happy. Not because I am an AS boy or this other emotional BS spilled out of an angry and frustrated man. No, because it caters to my needs perfectly. A good sound is the result. Just a side information: In the meantime it is the best sold protractor in Germany in the last two years. |
Dear @halcro : It's incredible that in the same thread ( short time. ) any one can change its way of thinking but you did it and you did it so easy in favor ofnothing other than to say " I'm rigth ". Let me explain it with facts from you: """ He constantly cites ’opinions’ as if they were ’facts’ and never supplies a shred of scientific evidence to support them. """ that is what you posted in the page 1 of your thread and something that always post when the overall subject is " raul " and as always trying to dimish everything I post. Then in the last page and latest posts you touted those cartridge headshell mount screws and can't be more happy with and with out any single " shred scientific evidence " to support , neither, you said or your boss said it and you never ask him for. Not even that, but nothing that can confirm the Palladian cartridge specs or the other cartridge models AS has on sale. Not even a critical spec on any of those cartridges about: dynamic compliance !!!!??? and if we read the site info is almost the same for each one model. Halcro, even the very very humble Stanton 981 or AT20SS or AKG P25MD or Denon 103 or almost all the vinatge MM cartridges you own came with the chart ( fact/real test. ) with the cartridge frequency response from 20hz to 20khz where we can see its frequency deviations all over that frequency range but we can see there its separation specs too. In those charts we can read the cartridge model and serial number, date of the tests and even whcich test record was used to. Where, at least that, is all that simple and important critical information for a megabucks cartridge? and more important: why did not ask to him that " scientific evidence " of what he is talking not only with the cartridges but with each single product he has on sale? why not? But there is more, not only you don't care about but you took your time to found out information by Brickman to support that " no explanations " no needs of " scientific eveidence " but only when I post something. ! ! ! ! ? ? ? ? So, you change your mind and way of thinking extremely easy and only to support you are " rigth " when in this same thread exist true evidence that is the other way around like here. Can we trust in your audio opinions? credibility?: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-palladian-a-step-beyond/post?postid=1372251#1372251 Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Thuchan, I usually like nuts and bolts/metal washers more than threaded holes, but that depends on the particulars. These holes have no metal insert for thread: they look like they are cut into the body. That's both good in terms of coupling and contact area, and bad in terms of playing around with torque or swapping. Titanium is usually worked by taking small slices, if you catch my drift. Although I use removable headshells, one-piece is superior IMO. No getting around the facts of 8 additional electrical connections and a physical boundary to bounce vibrations back in the wrong direction. Of course removable types have the advantage of ease of swapping, and look at all those shells you can try, to make it sing. I have no plans to try the cart. I spend far too much time and money with this stuff as it is. Time is the most precious thing we have and most people realize this when it's too late. I'm on this thread mostly out of curiosity and felt like digging around. I had forgotten about this one below - a couple of testimonials for the protractor:
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Dear solong, There are carts with different threads for the screws as well those which need nuts in addition. Will you be so kind to explain to the ''commons'' which size and length are usual as well what an resonable price-quality relation is. Thuchan scared us to death by, uh, implication. If those titanium screws are ''pricy'' for him what about us? |
Fleib, The Titanium screws are really good. I am also using them since a month with my Palladian in the Arche headshell. It is a pitty that all the good stuff is such pricy, especially on carts. Hope you will have the chance listening to a Palladian in the next days or weeks. I would be curious what you think! |
I've been looking over this thread and want to clear up a couple of things. I misread Raul's "email" post and referred to it as first hand information. I thought Raul was also a victim, but apparently not. However, I believe this is actual correspondence, not fabricated. Ortofon only offers a conventional 2 point protractor. I don't know what they offered in the past. This became part of the discussion of Uni DIN protractor and alignment. I'm under the impression that the AS alignment device is like a Dennesen SoundTractor or Feikert, only more elaborate and with different templates for different spindle size. Lewm commented in the past that AS protractor is a superior in its precision. CA has an alignment device of similar design as Dennesen. That's the one allegedly flawed, with the line of sight. This has nothing to do with my objection to the post script I referred to previously. Many people are confused about alignment, but it's just math or measuring results. The situation with deletions and revisions stinks. People talk about having their post deleted, but sometimes they do it, or a revision themselves as a strategy. My posts stand as is and I've made no request for a post to be deleted. |
To keep this on track, Halcro, did you use a torque wrench on your cartridge screws? The tension on cartridge screws can certainly affect sonics, for all the reasons you and others reiterate. If one were to draw conclusions regarding the efficacy of this or that fastener per se, then I think torque has to be a constant. You're quite right Lewm.... Here's what Dietrich recommends:- If you happen to have a small torque driver to use, the set value to use (ONLY with our cartridges, as they do feature a thread in Timet 1100 material!!) is: maximum 0.85 Nm with M2.5. Unfortunately......I don't possess a small torque driver so I had to just use the Allen Key supplied with the screws and was careful not to over-tighten 👀 After hearing the results with the Timet screws though.....I might invest in a torque-driver. Interestingly....in the latest TAS, there is a review of the latest Brinkmann Spyder turntable where the Reviewer comments:- Like many designers, Brinkmann prides himself on using subjective evaluations. We appear to be learning more about vinyl reproduction....and at a faster rate....than even the great engineers and designers in the 'Golden Age' could have imagined 🤓 |
