Halcro
It's late, a long day and I have an early flight to your country. I assume that it is hot?
Compliance measured in um/mN
I think I have the units right? Please excuse me if I haven't.
Anyway....
So for a given force we have a measured deflection.
It takes more force (effort) to move a low compliance cartridge a given distance.
So when playing a record, a low compliance cart will need a higher force applied to the stylus to make it move. We want the cart body to stay still while this is happening so it must absorb this energy. Which in turn means the arm has to deal with this as well.
When playing a record, a high compliance doesn't necessarily mean more movement at the motor end of the stylus. The opposite is also not necessarily true.
It depends upon the geometry of the suspension and where the mag or coils are.
This with all the usual caveats of compatible arm, etc
cheers
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Thanks Richard,
I think that makes sense....🤓
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Halcro, Even if the movements on the stylus end are similar, I think we need to look at the stylus/cantilever as a system, a vibrator. That might sound funny, but that's exactly what it is. That little guy has to vibrate 20,000 times per second to achieve 20KHz. To think that some carts have response to three times that or more is hard to conceive, but it's true. Regards,
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Raul, Given your criteria for a great cart (sounding live), you might like the Acoustical Systems offerings? I try to keep an open mind, but like you, won't endorse something I haven't heard or jump on some bandwagon. Have you heard any of the other AS models? I have to withdraw my analysis of uni-din alignment, at least for now. I have reason to believe it might be based on false information - the 63.3 and 112.5mm nulls. More on this later. Regards,
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Dear @fleib : Here are the calculations to achieve those null points that every one can have and use in any tonearm: http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_calculator_pro.php?arm1=Arm+1&l1=el&a1lv=270&am...you can read the null points values in the number charts under Löfgren B status. @halcro there is the " invent " of your " friend " !!!!!!!!. As usual with: a fraud. Now, that you know how to do it you can play " inventing new " kind of alignments. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Not so fast Raul. Okay, here's the deal; I saw a PDF written by Dietrich Brakemeyer in 2015. It kind of explains the design criteria of uni din. It gives a brief history of alignments (I won't bore you with the details) and talks about his alternate alignment as an option. As a preface to the PDF he says the published nulls (Analog Planet) are wrong. I want to make this clear. I have not been in touch with Acoustical Systems or Brakemeier directly, or Fremer, and I have no vested interest in any of this. I saw this late at night and at first I thought perhaps the nulls change with eff length. After a second reading I'm not sure, but probably not. Check this out- to paraphrase: **
Uni-Din does not follow the standard calculations for tangential curves as we know them. It also features very unusual resulting offset angle and overhang for the effective length. Uni-Din was first designed, then calculated. You may be tempted to recalculate Uni-Din based on the known second null point with the calculation tools offered in VE or similar websites. However, this inevitably leads to the first null point being more than 20mm away from reality, and thus leads to a curve that is anything but Uni Din.** I'll be honest. I don't know what the hell he's talking about because there's not enough info. I don't have an AS alignment device to debunk this. AFAIK this is like a Dennesen or Feikert protractor which gives you the inner null? One of these protractors automatically gives the outer null. If one null can not be calculated from the other, it can be measured. This requires a novel device called a ruler, or you could go to VE and download a Chpratz protractor which is just a calibrated straight line. Uni-Din owners - measure your nulls.
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I am sitting back basking in the sound of my Palladian, aligned to UNI-DIN, which gives me an unprecedented amount of information for my senses to process. The additional information is in so many regards: ambience, all parts of the frequency spectrum, changes in voice pressure etc. And this, coupled with excellent macro and micro dynamics, and a balanced frequency response, all add to make my listening experience the more believable and enjoyable.
Somehow it managed to do all of this regardless of the debates that are raging around its design fundamentals and alignment and the personal dislikes of some for its designer. To give full scientific context to my listening experience, I should note that my personal cantilever (not to be confused with the Palladian's cantilever) started off highly flexible (and therefore I would think reasonably damped?). However, with heightened enjoyment (listening that is) its tensile characteristics firmed considerably. I would presume that it therefore became less damped? At all times it remained hollow throughout.
Riddle me this. Approach A is superior as per the laws of physics to Approach B. However, regardless of which approach is used, it will have to interact with other areas. Also, the quality of the execution of the approach will also determine the result. So even if I know that Approach A is scientifically superior, it does not mean that a componet following A will sonically outperform one following B. I therefore use my ultimate approach, my EARS to determine the final result for me. If you have the opportunity to hear a Palladian, I would suggest that you do. It is an excellent cartridge.
I now have the courage to write this having purchased and applied copious quantities of LOTFR (Lord Of The Flies Repellent).
All the best!
And "enjoy the music" even if you do not listen to my type of music on my type of equipment! I think this is meant to be a hobby.
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Maybe because I have to be concerned with exact calculations and minutiae of other kinds in my work life, I tend to be lazy about facing exactitude in my hobbies. Seems to me that no matter what anyone can do, no matter how great a genius or how creative or innovative, it is only possible to achieve tangency to the groove wall of an LP at two points on the playing surface, given a conventional pivoted tonearm that is mounted such that the stylus tip overhangs the spindle and employs a headshell with offset angle. Optimal mounting geometry would seek to place those two null points such that tracking angle error up to and after each of the two null points is minimal. From what I can gather, Lofgren and Baerwald published the best solutions to this problem, and maybe now Dietrich has done even better, but I have to wonder how large a difference alignment alone could possibly make in the listening experience, when we are comparing solutions that are very close to each other. I am dubious, and I do own and use a UNItractor.
If the AS cartridge sounds wonderful, it is probably because it is a very good cartridge, maybe a great one, but I doubt its excellence has much to do with alignment per se.
Now as to the discussion of cantilever movement. It's interesting to me that MC cartridges, which are generally low in compliance, lose again. Add this to the other drawbacks: (1) The moving mass of an MC is not as low as that of an MI cartridge. (2) The low signal voltage necessitates one of a few tricks to add gain, any of which inevitably also add distortion of one kind or another. Why do they dominate the high end?
They do have the undeniable virtue of costing more. |
A pensive post Lewm..🤔
And one which I think the 'High-End Cabal' (which includes reviewers) would like dismissed 🙈
I have just today, conducted a mini-shoot-out between the Sony XL-55, Sony XL-88 (both renowned LOMCs from the Golden Age of analogue-70s-80s) and one of my favourite MM cartridges (also from the same age)..the Victor Z1 fitted with the SAS stylus.
In two words.....no contest 😎
The Victor has all the immediacy and involvement of 'live' music combined with the delicacy, depth, spatial imagery and speed that are commonly used to describe LOMCs....
Yet I have perhaps a dozen other vintage MMs which are virtually as good as the Z1/SAS and each one can be had for a maximum price of $400...😝
The real question is.....how does the Victor compare to the Palladian....❓👀
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For me, it may be no coincidence that the MC cartridges I like most have tended to be those with high-ish compliance, compared to their brethren.
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**Why do they dominate the high end? ** I think you know. Despite their limitations, "they do have the undeniable virtue of costing more." What would you use on your Thorens or Goldmund Reference, a Shure V15? How about a beautiful Koetsu to adorn that throne, and when the tip wears you get a replacement for half price. The sound is lush, and dare I say romantic? Not your cup of tea? Maybe a Veritas will get those high frequencies for the hard of hearing. Too forward? Then the Benz is for you. You'll get perspective like you wouldn't believe. It sounds as if your stereo is across the street, but it's perfect for those Altec horns in that small room of yours above the garage. It's a shame, but the wife is sensitive you know.
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**Why do they dominate the high end? **
I think you know. Despite their limitations, "they do have the undeniable virtue of costing more." You've both got it.....😎 When those with 'means', have $200,000 speakers driven by $160,000 monoblocks with $40,000 line-stages preceded by $20,000 phono-stages driven by $120,000 turntables with $35,000 tonearms......it is unthinkable to run it all with a $600 MM cartridge...😱 So I don't blame the cartridge manufacturers..... They essentially have no choice. It's not a question of 'how' a cartridge sounds..... The only question is...."Does it sound good enough to justify a $10,000-$18,000 price-tag?" Because no-one who buys a high-end LOMC will ever compare it to a $300 vintage MM or even a $1,500 vintage LOMC in their 1/2 million dollar systems. And those that do......will rarely be taken seriously 😴 So of course the 'wannabe high-end' audiophiles who can never afford the costs associated with a full-blown high-end system, can just possibly stretch to the 'same' esoteric LOMC (or its close relative). In this way.....having a $4,000-$6,000 LOMC on their $3,000 tonearm on their $2,500 turntable makes them believe that they are approaching the analogue 'nirvana' of their brethren. While the majority of audiophiles running their $200-$900 modern MM cartridges are wondering if they will ever taste the 'joys' of the LOMC elite..... And so it will continue to be.....👐 |
Dear @fleib : """
Given your criteria for a great cart (sounding live), you might like the Acoustical Systems offerings? """ NO, I do not and for very good reasons: knowing the audio history of the AS owner his products is and reflects ( can't do in a diferent way because if diferent then all what he personally " touted " was totally a lier/false ) his music-audio preferences/priorities: mega-heavy weigth BD TTs, love for FR 66 tonearm performance quality level, tube and SUT technology on electronics, etc, etc, and his extremely high marketing level along : bla, bla, bla, bla with out evidence that can prove what he said/say ( here on Agon he never gaves any single " scientific " evidence of what he " touted " and when he always said he had a very high scientist/engeneering levels. ). The today members of his " bandwagon " here in Agon and elsewhere in the net are the same for years. Ignorant people about real and true music/sound reproduction, nothing more. The reviews here reflects exactly that, all them including him : LOVES VERY HIGH DISTORTIONS . In the next links we can read what true cartridge designer experts contribute and contributed ( real knowledge levels and its own growing up history with real facts as foundation. ) through many many years doing that, even VDH invented the VDH stylus profile/shape: VDH 1 and VDH 2 that are under patents. Read this and read the Palladian description and you and any one else can understand what I mean about: http://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges/mc-anna/magnet-and-damping http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/frame.html http://benzcartridges.com/products/gullwing-s/ http://lyraanalog.com/atlas/ http://www.vandenhul.com/products/phono/the-colibriBtw, any one can " make " a new cartridge: you, Halcro or me can do it, just ask one of the few builders out side as Scan-Tech and that's it: the new FLEIB cartridge flagship. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear @bluewolf : Yes, this is a hobby and for some one of us a really serious hobby.
Btw, not here but everywhere I can't remember that some gentleman whom invested megabuks dollars in an audio item dislikes it or comment against it.
Please, follow enjoying that: what you like because at the end what is important is exactly that and not what other people could think about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @fleib : Don’t " distress with that " touted " alignment true information with facts that can prove what he said. Let me explain on that, a little: as I said he is more a marketing expert and " talk man " than a true analog expert. In the past when posting here he always talks of: " the master him self " in reference to some one in Japan ( he never gave the name. ) or "" for man years every one in Japan knew that FR alignment " in reference to change the pivot to spindle distance for around 2mm. ( only a manipulation. ) but the first time he posted he gave him the primice to thing on that ( discovery by hi9m self ) but latter on and trhough the net appeared that he was liying endorsing him as the author. He always: bla, bla, bla, thinking all the people around the world are stupid or have not internet or he think no one can navegate through to read the true. Here you can read of what I said here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368218#368218https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368205#368205 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1/post?postid=368215#368215all those were coments on what dertonarm osted. We can read even on his " scientist and engeneering " so high levels here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-is-the-price-of-new-tonearms-so-high/post?postid=369362#3...https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-is-the-price-of-new-tonearms-so-high/post?postid=369383#3...in that thread kirkus hitted him too. Where are his scientist/engennering high level?. He never showed and even today inside his products he still can’t. He is a clever person taking ( always ) advantage of audiophiles high ignorance level as his " bandwagon gentlemans ". Look how clever. In his site he shows a comparison made it by Gecom of germany between his Smartractor and two other tractors to show that his product is " unique " and this is what we can read there: """" First we made a measurement of a combined alignment with the Ortofon and Clearaudio protractors. The summary klirr factor (distortion factor) was measured and weighted over the whole record side. The result was 1.22 % distortion. Following this we aligned the very same tonearm/cartridge combination with the SMARTractor and repeated the measurement. The result was 0.48% distortion. """
for any rookie that was : OOH!. First that was an average measure and second the spindle hole in those protractors are wrong and they showed this:
""" One of the least expensive protractors is from Ortofon. With this protractor the spindle hole was way too large. """ and the other:
""" the protractor made by Clearaudio. The effective length of the tonearm is marked in steps of 1 mm - with a resolution of 0.2 mm. The center drill for the spindle has significant play - approximately 0.5 mm """
MINT LP protractor that’s very inexpesive and highly accurated can meet at least that 0.48% distortion touted by him in his Smartractor. Again bla, bla, bla and more blabla. Over his audio life that’s what he did it and not only taking advantage of my ignorance level but the in good people faith like this: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6502-Refund-problem@chad-rutherford , interesting all those. Regards and enjoy the music, R. Btw, he said that Analog Planet is wrong about the unidin alignment comparison. Two things there: first was not M.Fremer but Wally ( the Wallyprotractor designer. ) and second why if is something wrong ( as he stated. ) with a public comparison in a product he has on sale not go there and posted why is wrong???? at the end M.Fremer site is very well regarded. makes sense to you? Sitll more bla, bla, bla |
Raul, good documentation. I wasn't aware of those threads you linked to. There's always a danger in trying to justify subjective opinion(s) with science, especially when it's phony science. The posts by Mark Kelly are interesting. I already resolved the alignment thing, at least to my satisfaction, without bothering to verify anything. Here's my post a few days ago on Audio Circle: ***
My previous comments about UNI DIN alignment might be incorrect. Brakemeier claims Analog Planet nulls are wrong. My comments are based on Fremer's published information or misinformation as the case may be. Maybe his friend Wally Whatisname screwed up?
I'll cut to the chase. Although Brakemeier claims that one null can not be calculated from the other and they don't conform to traditional geometry, I think he's full of it. This is a smoke screen. If there is one null, there has to be another or the alignment would be unlistenable. I suspect the point of alignment on his template is not actually the null and that's why Mikey screwed up, if in fact he did.
Brakemeier is a cleaver fellow and he claims intellectual property for this alignment. Good luck with that one Mr. Brakemeier. I think you might have delusions of grandeur.
Anyway, the giant table looks awesome and I suspect Acoustical Systems will sell a bunch of their carts at $10K/pop, maybe some arms and alignment devices. They will have to settle for that.*** http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.1520#msg1574075 It's also interesting that the protractor was compared to the Clearaudio device. I read a post somewhere that claimed, the CA protractor is flawed because the line of alignment to the arm pivots is incorrect - misplaced. This looks like it's the case, but I've never used or seen either of these. Despite any history you might have with Dertonarm AKA Dietrich Brakemeier, I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. The rest is history or conjecture. Regards,
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Dear fleib, ''value judgment'' are not truth functional. That is why we are allowed to like blonds or brunettes or whatever cart we like. So what is subjective or objective (aka ''scientific'') is difficult to practice in our hobby. Anyway one can easilly discriminate between those who like and dislike Dertonarm. Those who don't like the guy use terms as ''innovation'', ''patent'' ,''intellectual property'' etc. in order to denay his merits. There is however the term ''craftsmanship'' which we do use in the context of the retips and also by those ''grandmasters'' like Takeda, Ikeda, Allearts, etc. by whom we don't care if they ever made any patent application. As we know or can know Dertonarm designed and produced Apolite TT, Arche headshell, Uni Din, two tonearms and 4 MC carts. His most rigurous critic, the Mexican however never produced anything. What he claims is desigend and made by his Sanco Panza. Those who are familiar with the Mexican oracle know this by the so called ''inside information''. Your ''scietific approach'' is alas not relevant because you have no experience with any of Dertonarm's products so you can only guess or speculate about them in the best philosophical tradition with many ''ifs''. |
Addition, I forget to mention the clear diffrence between the dramatis personae in my last post. Dertonaram is without any question an professioanal manufacturer while Fleib and Raul are amateurs like the most of us. |
nandric,
I think your last post sums up most of the critique, if I can call it that, in this thread. What never ceases to amaze me is how people with little to no technical knowledge and experience pontificate and personally attack the few experts that post on forums. I used to frequent the 993 forum on Rennlist. You would think that such a forum would be narrow enough not to warrant personal attacks. But no. The most bitter thread was between staunch supporters of Mobil 1 who technically collectively knew a pinch of the proverbial, and 2 experts (one an oil specialist and the other a highly experienced mechanic) who for the best interests of owners advised that the reformulation of the oil to meet EU standards required no zinc and therefore had resulted in premature wear in oil cooled engines. We never saw those experts on the forum again. Why should they bother giving highly valuable advice only to be personally attacked by people with little to know actual technical knowledge and technical experience?
I know that I do not have the technical knowledge or the technical experience to evaluate designs on a technical level, and so never attempt to. What would be the point? Who would I be kidding? I guess I would first have to work out how to kid myself. But I can listen to a product and tell you what it sounds likes to me, and that is what I innocently tried to do for the benefit of those who might want to take advantage of my experience.
All the best,
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Nandric, I think you would have been better off letting this go instead of reminding me that I am not in the business, not a professional, which also means I'm not in competition with Acoustical Systems. I can't remember having any interaction with Dertonarm on this forum or anywhere else, and have nothing against him personally, and I wasn't aware of his apparent sordid history as a cheat and con man. This is well documented with testimony, in Raul's link: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6502-Refund-problem I also wasn't aware, but suspected that the principal of the company, one
Axinia Schäfer, is or was his wife. This is to avoid past liability claims? If one believes these posts on Whatsbestforum, Daniel Brakemeier AKA Dietrich Brakemeier looks like a moral sociopath, someone thinking they are above judgment and believes their own lies. Despite this, I suggested that the cart should be judged on its merits. You, on the other hand suggested that I shouldn't post on Raul's MM/MI thread because I, at the time, did not own enough qualifying carts. This is despite the fact that in the past I owned a TK10 MLII, Kisiki Blue, M20FL Super, and numerous others - currently an AT15/20SS, 980LZ, Z1/SAS, Genesis 1000, etc. As a past mfg. I submit that any company is constantly on trial in the court of public perception. Counselor, your last posts do not help your friend. Sincerely, |
Dear Fleib, ''the counselor'' which post ''do not help (his) friend'' is public so everyone is entitled to comment. As a ''counsellor'' I don't think that your witness (aka Raul) will make your post very convincing. Your pretended neutrality regarding Dertonarm is also not very convincing because of your insinuations that Dertoarm is a ''moral sociopath''. But more to the point is the fact that you has nothing to say about my arguments. This is usual in your reactions to my post. You deed not deny to have never seen or used any of Dertonarms products. What value should we put on your comments on his products then? Then I mentioned ''craftsmanship'' in the context of your interpretation of intellectual property. I teached intelllectul property for 30 years. I even mentioned ''know how'' which in no way imply patent as such . You also deed not deny my statement that Dertonarm is a professional manufacturer while you and Raul are amateurs. I hope for you that you will be never involved in whatever lawsuit without an councellor . With your kind of ''argumentation'' you will have no chance. |
Dear bluwolf,
For exactly the same reasons as you mentioned Dertonarm left our forum while I have not seen any post from J. Carr lately. Those were our , as you name them, '' experts''. Well why should they if such autodidacts like Raul and Fleib pretend to know everything better? You should not consider yourself as an ''lonly wolfe''. The most people are not blind but have some peculiar opinion about ''politeness'' by which ''critical remarks'' are not done. BTW you also formulated your disatisfaction very carefull (grin). Kind regards,
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Nandric, *** ''the counselor'' which post ''do not help (his) friend'' is public so everyone is entitled to comment. As a ''counsellor'' I don't think that your witness (aka Raul) will make your post very convincing. Your pretended neutrality regarding Dertonarm is also not very convincing because of your insinuations that Dertoarm is a ''moral sociopath''. But more to the point is the fact that you has nothing to say about my arguments. This is usual in your reactions to my post. You deed not deny to have never seen or used any of Dertonarms products. What value should we put on your comments on his products then? Then I mentioned ''craftsmanship'' in the context of your interpretation of intellectual property. I teached intelllectul property for 30 years. I even mentioned ''know how'' which in no way imply patent as such . You also deed not deny my statement that Dertonarm is a professional manufacturer while you and Raul are amateurs. I hope for you that you will be never involved in whatever lawsuit without an councellor . With your kind of ''argumentation'' you will have no chance.*** Once again, what's the point, to dig a deeper hole for Brakemeier? Raul is not the witness. He pointed the way to a 10 page indictment on What's Best Forum. Can you defend against it? Those posts seem credible to me, but if you have evidence to the contrary..... My "insinuations" were the logical conclusion of the moral aspect of the thread. That was stated clearly in "looks like ..." On the AS web site intellectual property is claimed for uni din. LOL I don't believe that past mistakes or problems should necessarily be held against someone. That's why I suggested to Raul that he might like the sound of AS carts, and the Palladian should be judged on its merits. Want more bad publicity for Acoustical Systems? That's what the court of public opinion is about.
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Fleib, Speaking about ''what the court of public opinion is about'' you obviously overlooked the comment of bluewolf. This is usualy the case with people who are convinced about their own right. But Raul nor you have enything to say about Dertonarms products because neither of you has any idea about them. Both of you are obsessed by his charakter and don't care about his products. But what has his charakter to do with the sound of his products? I don't believe that Einstein was an nice person but what has this to do with his theories? I very much like Ikeda's FR- 7 series carts and don't care about his charakter. |
Fleib, I try to understand what you said about assessments and image of AS. You are refering to a WBf thread. why don't you mention the critical acclaims and awards of AS in Japan, Germany, China etc.?
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Dear @fleib : """
I read a post somewhere that claimed, the CA protractor is flawed because the line of alignment to the arm pivots is incorrect ..."""" and the Ortofon protractor is not better that than the CA. It's obvious that if any one makes a comparison against any accurate protractor as MINT LP, Freikfert or the smartractor all these wins showing lower overall distortion levels: not big deal. As I said very clever to puts in his site taking advantage of our ignorance level on that regards. """
I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. """ First I don't want to convince cartridge owners when any one likes what they like according their music/sound ignorance levels. In the other sideI like to use common sense and let me explain about that " cartridge merits ": any flagship LOMC cartridge in the market was voiced for its " manufacturer " and this premise always is a fact. Now, he voiced the Palladian according with his personal " bible " he used over the years to " evangelize " every kind of audiophiles ( as the ones in his bandwagon. ) and you can read in very precise way what is write in that " bible ": FR 66 ( as a fact he came to Agon as a " covered " FR seller ), FR 7 cartridge line ( the same. ), SUT ( seller of Jensen transformers. ), tubes and somewhere in the time horns and Orsonic headshell. All that is what he touted here and everywhere ( he prepared the " land " with time. Clever. ). All those products are knowed today to generate higher distortions that other kind of designs. He is accustomed to that kind of sound quality inferior level. Please tell me how could be that that voiced by him cartridge can sounds totally different?, no way. Even his " boys " that owns that cartridge confirm it with his reviews and comments about. His real merit is that he has audio items on sale under AS company where he is the owner. Btw, did you know that he is knowed as the audio items " copy-cat "?: I think his first product on sale was the headshell with the VTA/SRA mechanism that he presented as something " unique ": well that headshell has the Orsonic basic type " platform " but more " interesting " is that in reality is nothing unique on the VTA headshell mechanism. The first true unique headshell with VTA/SRA mechanism was made it by the TT designers/manufacturer Dual ( this is a Dual's invent. ), very easy to use. This was many many years ago, you can see it here ( btw, before Dual cartridge AKG manufacturer invented the VTA/SRA mechanism direct in the cartridge body it its all time flagship model: AKG P100 LE. ): https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=dual+vta+headshell&rlz=1C2LEND_enMX569MX569&biw=1600&...the @bluewolf phono stage ( tubes/SUT. ) is a precise copy of an old French design. One of his " boys " Eckart posted that he and Dietrich were in Eckart speakers design and manufacture of it. That design was and is a horns one and is a copy of a very well regarded UK propietary speaker designer/builder. Many of us here can remember this because some one posted the Eckart speaker picture ( Eckart was so proud that he posted his speaker picture. ) and the picture of the UK original today design!!!! Now, we can see how easy is to make money taking advantage of each one ignorance level and good faith. No problem with that, it happens in audio and in almost any kind of business. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Nandric, in case you hadn't noticed, my post on 12/10 10:37pm was addressed to Raul after he documented a lengthy attack. I commented on the substance of his post and ended: "Despite any history you might have with Dertonarm AKA Dietrich Brakemeier, I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that their ears are deceiving them. The rest is history or conjecture." Then you talk about those who like or dislike Brakemeyer, etc. etc. Are you familiar with the term dummkopf?
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Fleib, ''Are you familiar with the term dummkopf?'' Well I am as familiar with German as with Dutch . The expression ''term'' comes from ''terminology'' in scientific sense and is not equivalent to what is called ''word''. There is no such word in German btw. It is a combination of two ''morphems'' by which new words can be generated: ''dumm'' and ''Kopf''. The grammar of both languages allows such combinations without restrictions and that is why both languages are ''unbelievable rich''. As a Serbian immigrant I got law degree in Holland and was university teacher for more as 30 years. As far as I know you was assistent in an HIFI shop where you learned how to a.o. adjust LP 12.'' Dumm '' (stupid) is used in the context of ''intelligence'' , more in general as ''learnig capability'' while your and my ''social achivement'' demonstrate this capability.
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Sad, very sad. This forum should be about the performance of products. It should not be about trying to discredit inanimate products based on a forum member's prejudice against the animate creator and anyone who has the audacity to honestly extol them. And as per my actual experience with dealing with Mr Brakemeier over a number of years in relation to Acoustical System ("AS") products, the attacks of Messrs @rauliruegas and @fleib on his technical and ethical credibility are totally without foundation. I have found him technically the best, scrupulously honest and the maker of superlative products. To any members quietly reading this thread, which @halcro started with an excellent review of the outstanding Palladian the purpose of which was to positively inform, and which has since been hijacked by two posters with demonstrably malevolent intent, AS make cutting edge products, the proof of which is in the listening and not in the "round and round the garden like a teddy bear" written pontification, which I fear can lead one to becoming retromingent (what a lovely word - I have always wanted to use it). My first product from AS was cartridge set-up equipment based on their exceptional UNI-DIN alignment. This is a great place to start. The UNI-DIN approach is informatively explained on the AS website: http://www.arche-headshell.de/uni-din-a-new-approach/I do hope that we can all kiss and make up and move on and enjoy this wonderful hobby, and present our views, all the more credibly, without personal attacks. |
Amen bluewolf. The problem however is my Serbian upbringing according to which the revenge is more important than sex. So I will give Fleib the so called 'Italian kiss'' just before I kill the guy. |
The problem however is my Serbian upbringing
according to which the revenge is more important than sex. hah hah hah.....8^0 So I will give Fleib the so called ’Italian kiss’’ just before I kill the guy. Such an extreme? Would you like me to send you some horsefly cream instead? I have some left over. We are in winter here and I have no use for it right now. |
Bluewolf, I admire your desire for peace and tranquility. However, it's the squabbling that makes these threads interminably long, thought provoking, and occasionally funny. Some of us some of the time have no patience with the fact that others of us disagree on this or that. In fact, this could be said of all of us, some of the time, and some of us all of the time.
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Dear Chris, What kind of (former) compatriote are you? I thought that you got the same upbringing as I deed. The soft Canadian opproach ( aka ''political correctness'') obviously spolied your ''manhood'' (grin). BTW I get my Sliwowitz in Essen, Germany, in huge quantities(50 liter each time) so I don't need your ''leftovers''. |
Dear Lew, Sometime I regrete that you deed not follow your Dostojevski inspiration. I am sure that you would become a great writer. However I always enjoy your prosa despite the fact that you become medical scientist and questionable HIFI ''analyst''. |
Nandric, You previously spoke about language games. Although I have a degree in another field, I worked in high end audio for awhile because I like it. I was never an assistant or a clerk, as you described me in the past. After cofounding AHT (mfg.) I moved on. This is neither here nor there. Since we have only two user reports of Palladian why don't you talk about your AS cartridge? I doubt if you'll get more mileage out of "killing" me. |
What kind of (former) compatriote are you?
I thought that you got the same upbringing as I deed.
Nikola - I remember the revenge "thing' from the early years I spent with my Grandmother. But I am a product of the 60's and my parents... were influenced by the Trudeau government - Pierre & Maggie. My parents influenced me the most. And in Canada now, we have Pierre and Maggie's son running Canada. 8^0 It was ingrained in me not to do two things. 1) Brag 2) Say bad things of others. BTW I get my Sliwowitz in Essen, Germany, in
huge quantities(50 liter each time) so I don't need your ''leftovers''.
Now you are bragging.... Our liquor stores are regulated by the government. :^( |
Bluewolf, ***This is a great place to start. The UNI-DIN approach is informatively explained on the AS website:
http://www.arche-headshell.de/uni-din-a-new-approach/
I do hope that we can all kiss and make up and move on and enjoy this wonderful hobby, and present our views, all the more credibly, without personal attacks. *** This is one of the things I already addressed. Maybe you thought it was just an attack with no basis in reality? Did you read the post script? It is claimed that one null (point of tangency) can not be calculated from the other. According to the rules of geometry this is only possible if the cartridge can be aligned two ways at the same time. In other words, it's not possible. If you have an alternate solution I'd be interested. |
As previously noted I ordered a Palladian a few weeks back based on the experiences @halcro and others posted. It was hand delivered by Norm from Rutherford Audio last night and I installed it this morning. Installation is very easy given the very visible cantilever and number of parallel surfaces, as well as the multiple screw threads. One caveat is that it is quite a "flat" cartridge body (i.e. shorter distance vertically from stylus to top of body) hence for those with the tonearm at its extreme low of travel you may need a spacer (I am virtually bottoming out my tonearm and cannot lower it any more). For initial listening azimuth was set at level, SRA with he body horizontal (maybe halcro you can advise on how best to measure SRA given this stylus profile). 1/73g and load at 200 ohms
With the caveat that this is based only on the first few hours this does appear to be something special. What strikes me most is the fine detail on supporting instruments, for example individual strings on a finger picked guitar, or the details in a background (well buried in the mix) bass line. Relative to the Air Tight PC1 it replaced (which I really liked) it is less romantic in the bass, I suspect actually more accurate but also that the bass will open up with more hours. But overall it's the extreme sense of natural detail enabling you to wander around in the mix that is the overriding characteristic to me. I'll report back in more detail once I've gotten more hours but so far I would strongly recommend checking this cartridge out |
Folkfreak, Thank you for taking the time to post your very early observations. Sadly, the cost is such that one cannot casually "check this cartridge out". It's more an act of faith. After you put tens of hours on the Palladian you might then want to switch back to the PC1 for a bit. Such experiments can be quite revealing.
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@folkfreak, I found that there was a significant change in the Palladian's sound after the first 10 hours or so of playing, all very positive. I would not have been happy with that initial sound compared to my run-in Aiwon. If you see promise immediately, I wager that you are in for a very happy experience. I very much look forward to your follow-up.
@lewm , a pity we do not live close, otherwise I would invite you around for a listen and a cup of good Chinese tea. Cartridges are practically the most difficult things to audition.
All the best.
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Thanks for the preliminary report folkfreak...
As bluewolf says.....rapid improvement is heard through the first 20 hours although straight out-of-the-box, this cartridge will impress 👀
As lewm rightly reminds us......buying an uber-expensive new cartridge is an act of faith.
Best to take the advice of someone you trust. I did.....
I hope that being inspired to take that risk by reading this Thread, has paid off.....🤔❓
Regards
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@fleib , Despite any history you might have with Dertonarm AKA Dietrich
Brakemeier, I think this cart should be judged on its merits. You might
have a hard time convincing Acoustical Systems cartridge owners that
their ears are deceiving them. The rest is history or conjecture. I appreciate this comment as these are the words of an open mind. Here's the thing. I am not a geometrician and I do not know the geometry behind UNI-DIN. But what I do know is that there must be excellent geometry behind UNI-DIN as otherwise it would not work. It is impossible for it to produce the sound I am getting if it did not work. I can appreciate people wanting to discuss and debate technical aspects that they see are behind designs. But these discussions cannot change the actual performance that products are producing. I do not need to know how something works to know that it does work. All the best. |
Bluewolf, ***I appreciate this comment as these are the words of an open mind. Here's the thing. I am not a geometrician and I do not know the geometry behind UNI-DIN. But what I do know is that there must be excellent geometry behind UNI-DIN as otherwise it would not work. It is impossible for it to produce the sound I am getting if it did not work. *** Seems to me that "it" didn't produce the sound, the cartridge did. Out of a mound of bull manure, a prairie flower grows. Would an orchid survive under such conditions? Wouldn't know, I'm not an orchidophile, but I like the way they look. Best regards,
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@fleib , Firstly, please accept my apologies for trying to be friendly. It is evidently something beyond you at this stage of your human development. My mistake. Hopefully friendliness will develop in you later.
So you are arguing over the cartridge making the sound rather than the alignment. Oh please. Of course the cartridge makes the sound. What a brilliant deduction. My congratulations to you. You have now understood the first step in getting excellent sound. Let me now see if I can show you the second.
Let me try and make this very simple. A badly aligned cartridge, however good, will not produce the quality of sound I am hearing. You like word pictures (and oh such colourful ones), so maybe you will be able to understand this exceptionally difficult second step with a word picture. The Mercedes F1 car, produced the best results this season delivering 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship. And I hope this does not complicate this picture too much for you, these cars did require excellent drivers. There is no doubt that it was the exceptional quality of the car combined with the excellent quality of the driver that delivered this best performance (car+driver = cartridge). But if Mercedes had used terrible wheel alignment the exceptional quality of the car and driver would have delivered the worst result (alignment = alignment). All clear now?!
But credit where credit is due. You are amazing in that you can comment so much on something you have zero experience with, UNI-DIN.
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The “Mental”
Simulators (coming to hijack a friendly and informative thread near you)
- a Play in 1,318 Parts The sun is shining and everyone is happy @halcro : I
have just taken the Mercedes F1 car out on the track and it is fast and
beautifully balanced. I have never experienced anything like it.
bluewolf: I
have had exactly the same experience with the Mercedes F1, set up as per their
proprietary MERC-DIN alignment. Black threatening clouds move in and block the sun
Flash, flash, followed by lightening and thunder and the sound of air evacuating balloons
@rauliruegas : the
Mercedes F1 cannot be good. I know that without driving it or knowing anything
about it because I don’t like the designer and I don’t like the cars he use to
like before he designed the Mercedes F1. And bluewolf cannot judge good
performance because I read a review of a motorbike he didn’t like and I think
it is great, and he likes exactly what the F1 designer likes as he owns some of
the cars the F1 designer use to like. So the Mercedes F1 cannot be any good.
@fleib : I
have never used MERC-DIN but I have used a simulator that does not take into
account the geometry behind MERC-DIN and I can declare that MERC-DIN is crap. Intermission!
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The suffix ''DIN'' by UNI-DIN refer to (German Industrial Standard) which assume 57,5 mm as inner groove limit. Whatever the distance to the spindle this part of the record is much more difficult to trace then the other radiuses. Because of customers complaints about this fact manufacturers moved this distance to 62 mm. Depending on one's LP collection one will own diffrent ''distance'' to the spindle by different production years, etc. As I understand Dertonarm's intention he wanted to improve (stylus) tracing in this part of the record radius. Alas my mathematical skills ar similirar to those of bluewolf with whom I obviousy have much in common. So I have no intention to mess with the involved geometry. |
Bluewolf, I'm being unfriendly? Anyone who doesn't completely agree with you is subject to hostile characterizations. Like your reference to your personal cantilever in your mini review, it seems as if you're easily excitable. Your analogy is inconsistent with my remarks. Using similar logic, do you think the cartridge would sound bad using a conventional alignment? I'm telling you flat out, the post script I talked about previously, is BS. Saying the cart can not be evaluated without the alignment, is nonsense. Regards,
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Dear Fleib, Your strategy is not to react to the questions asked but to persist on your theoretical assumptions. You just stated: ''Saying the cart can not be evaluated without the alignment, is nonsense.'' How about evaluation of any cart without any experience with the cart in question? This is bluewolf's argument which you deed not address. The reason is obvious. |
Dear @bluewolf : "
the attacks of Messrs @rauliruegas and @fleib on his technical and ethical credibility are totally without foundation. " Ethical Credibility: why don't ask all the gentlemans that were cheated by him? and your statement looks as you understand nothing/not a single word of the WTF thread that was posted not for me but for the gentlemans that losted their " heavy " money. Here you can read what in those times they email me: """
i think you know some things about Daniel or Dertonarm or Deitrich……alias he uses…..from his past the rumor is tax fraud….. on whats best forum there is a long chain under Refund Problem that is exposing him. He has tried to defraud me of almost 50K. i have done this reluctantly. but it is to protect the audio community from being cheated like me. I am angry at the small group of germans around him that knew about this, and did not expose him and thus i became a victim. we do not want to be uncivil on the post or they will take it down. no mud slinging, just facts. ........................................
I am disgusted with his German friends who have helped him sell to us, and who are defending him. Never in my life have i been so fooled and 'cheated.
Raul, you say he is not stupid, that he will pay this money back because he needs his reputation cleaned up. DO YOU REALLY THINK SO. i doubt it.i think he will never pay us. ....................
He has a LOT OF my money, and I don't think he ever repays ANYONE. SO I NOT THINK YOU ARE correct below, though i wish you were. .....
The last time he at my home trying to fix the lamm amps he modded and they stopped working, and i had to send to Lamm for repair, and which he refusedto pay for……. the last time he here, he stole about $3000 worth of WBT spades. Put them in bags when not looking, and when i wrote him askingwhere are they????, he said he did not know. he lied.
so he is a thief in more ways than one. """"
Now do you still thinking that there is no foundation other than the WBF thread?
Technical:
the links I posted to Fleib speaks as foundation of it. Do you think that he build the cartridges or design it?. There are only 3-4 real builders around the world that made the cartridges of that " top " level.
One thing is to manufacture a headshell or TT or a tube copy phono stage and other totally diferent a LOMC cartridge.
No, my posts are not an attack are facts unknowed by you and many other people.
FACTS not posted by me, I only read it sometime ago and shared here.
You like to read my posts and Fleib ones but understand almost nothing because
your ignorance level as many of us is diferent person by person. We all have to learn to post according to.
This is not about " emotions " as you or other person can think, all is about facts in one way or the other.
Now, please tell me with facts why I'm wrong and if I am you can be sure that will be appreciated because I always am willing to learn and NO I'm not unfriendly it's just that is the way I " talk ". I'm not against any other human been in the world.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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@bluewolf : Btw, the subject here is not what I like or not but what is wrong or rigth. To understand it and with all respect you need to learn a little more on MUSIC and audio of what you think you know.
R. |
