Pretty sure it was your post about Sasquatch...
I like the part of the video where your guy says Bigfoot told him telepathically that all good bands play ’Bolero’.
Should have called it a night at your orgonite plug.
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That plug. I’m going to leave you and your friend Bigfoot alone now. I wish you well living in your own private Idaho. |
That was not a sales pitch. That was an example of a material that has high vibrational characteristics that might also be called a sound. That was the topic at hand. You had no way of knowing this, but I am 70 years old and about to hang it up with orgonite making. I certainly don't advertise or pump my mailing list anymore, and even if I still was "on the make" this forum would not be on my list of places to hawk my weird wares. |
ON THE MAKE meaning: trying hard to succeed, esp. in a way that is dishonest. Very important to choose your words wisely. Okay, I fibbed. Question for you: Explain what is a high vibrational characteristic that might also be called a sound. Because I’ve got to tell you, that comes off as a load of nonsense. An in depth explanation may clarify your meaning. |
It is not the first time i overreacted... I apologize to you... First you are the OP of this thread then..... I must have been better in controlling my own temper... I acted taking myself too seriously because i am very interested in this topic... I personaly think that vibrations being not confined to material plane , telepathy is a possible occurring phenomena because we live simultaneously on many planes ...
But sasquatch discussion will not be taken seriously here anyway... I believe you are of good faith then i am the only responsible person to have derail this trail ... I apologize really ... I hope you will understand me ... I apologize to all readers of this thread too...
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No problem. It’s the way it goes on public forums. Humans being the itchy and scratchy entities they are they are more enamored of picking fights over relatively innocuous things especially now that the media environment has been pitched so shrill. To reiterate for "thecarpathian" we were talking about being affected by vibrations assumed to be beyond the range of human hearing. I was suggesting that there are other such vibrations - microwaves being yet another example. In the case of orgonite, which functions like a capacitor with a compressed crystal inside it, there are people who "feel" the energy field quite emphatically. There may not technically be a "sound" associated with it, but some liken it to a sound perhaps because of the way it interacts with the brain. Maybe a better way to say it is that it is reminiscent of sound which for the brain can be the same thing as a sound.
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@bolong , Thank you for taking the time to clarify your previous statement. |
I agree with you description because i felt the same in my experiments with many minerals...
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@mapman: “The mystery of high end audio is way more mysterious than that of music.” This is like saying the functionality of a Cuisinart is more “mysterious” than the experience eating amazingly good food provides. a) the experience of enjoying listening to music These two things are not alike, and to say b) is “way more mysterious” than a), frankly, boggles my mind. |
Pretty sure @mapman was being facetious... |
Very interesting and moving video... The first chapter experience described in the book by Oliver Sacks... I had no doubt that the human mind is "tuned" to the "other world" , and music or mathemathics are direct manifestation of higher consciousness levels... It is the same for poetry ... Dont let materialism impede intuition nor ideas... Listening music is deeper activity than killing time ...
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Hey I’m just glad someone ( @thecarpathian ) understands my humor. May the force be with you! 🥇 |
In music depth and surface are one... Music is a fractal phenomenon by essence.... The Goethe method was described by Henri Bortoft as "taking the appearence seriously"... Music is such that his mysterious meaning is completely given in his acoustic appearence... Nothing is hidden in music , everything wait to be perceived ... «Music gave us new ears and new body, playing and listening music is like redesigning his body and not only his soul »-- Anonymus musician Anyway speech is music first and last....😊 |
I do not consider Sorabji as a failed composer writing unplayable music as the short introduction above present him... I think nothing resemble Sorabji cosmos in piano music... But Sorabji ask a lot of the listener ...We must want to be immersed in another world... But i recommend this video above not as the last word on Sorabji but as a challenge... Perhaps you will listening Sorabji and you will not be moved as we are moved by most classical composers...But none of the composers who moves me gave to me such challenge for my attention and anyway i found Sorabji music fascinating as really a new geometrical cosmos for piano ...My favorite instrument ... Sorabji is one of my favorite composer in the twentieth century ... |
You are right ... In my opinion this is a revolution , the greater one since the transition from mono to stereo system...
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Calling all people "idiots" who love this video put here by the OP say a lot about you... Calling others idiots will only confirm it ... Enjoy you brain walls... Try this book ... Cipolla: the 5 fundamental laws of stupidity... It is a free book on the net written by this italian economist...Unrivalled book till this day about the definition of stupidity...Or write your own instead of insulting people , who knows how wise you could be ? 😁 It may help ... Because i guess you will not take my advice i will resume all the book with the third law which is the core : «A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.» Now you have the necessary mirror to meditate about yourself before judging others alleged stupidity ... I dont think that you are intelligent enough to be sensible to mathematical thinking history and his links to spiritual experience and the real meaning of Godel theorems ... Etc ... I suggest the book of Cipolla...
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Now someone that had something to say who is one of the great expert about healing music and music as conciousness orchestration in the body of the "symphony of the self ": One of his album is my best healing album ever ( i used it for anxiety control and amazingly it work as much as a powerful drug for me in 20 minutes each time i used it and pay attention here, i dont use this as i use classical music or jazz as leisure relaxation, i use it ONLY if i need it it is as a drug and it is a very short pieces of spoken songs repeated without end with very minute variations of frequencies) ....😊
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Psychoacoustics sound goes to the ears... a tuning forks you hear for example... Vibroacoustic sounds goes through the body... A tuning fork directly applied to a body part... Healing processing sounds = some frequencies + intention of those who give or produce the sound and intention of those who receive it ... I resume some important Jonathan Goldman points ... "Music and sound are the carrier of our consciousness." " Love is not a frequency but a consciousness that can be encoded in any sound" "Everything is frequency yes, but no one respond to the same set of frequencies the same way as some % are allergic to penincillin which for others will be a healing drug (with his frequencies) ." " In basically most cosmologies, sound precede light (sonoluminescence) in the beginning was the word, the verb, the logos" "a long tradition link vocalization and visualization with manifestation" We must remember here that studying "the structures of the anthropological imagination " by Gilbert Durand , he demonstrated how ALL SYMBOLS are classified and classifiable as externalization of the human metabolism and reflex systems and morphologies... No symbols inherited from the past escape this grounding roots in the body ... Healing sounds or helping sounds can be any sounds that the individual need at this time , in his actual state in some circonstance... Than even if healing or relaxation sounds are not about tastes , "tastes" there is and specific needs must be answered too ... Even heavy metal can be for someone at some time healing ...Even if it is not for everyone and at all time...
At the end "silence is the yin to the yang of sound" . Silence is the ocean of all sounds when they goes together and wait for the new sound to be born. "silent" is an anagram of the word "listen" .... |
Goldman cite a doctor saying it is demonstrated that relaxing music is as potent as valium ... I dont doubt it myself... Anybody with stress crisis can test it himself... A fact which is striking is a relatively high % of people are not moved by music, or are unable to produce it or a mix of the two. it is call amusia ... For me i feel this as an handicap as much as others handicap...
Anyway i did not know but Goldman wrote a book about humming sound... He was looking for a sound whch anybody can produce from babies to grandpa without any judgemental appreciation or preoccupation about the voice qualities : the humming sound.... For sure as he said Patanjali already described this sound AUM or OM as the fundamental home or humming of the cosmos itself... Goldman remind us that a lot of peer reviewed research around the sound AUM or humming demonstrated all health beneficial effects on the metabolism or blood pressure and many other aspects... Personally i like very much the music of Australian original people creating it with their voices and the powerful didgeridoo...Which is a humming sound ...The didgeridoo is probably the most powerful humming instrument with the human humming voice...
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Humming as health and relaxing practice must be done lips closed and the voice must stay on one note at a confort pitch level for the people doing the humming ... After some few deep slow respirations, we must hum 5 times to reap the benefits...Silence period between each hum as long as each humming ... A simple way to decrease stress in 5 minutes sessions...And why not even reach God if our intention is setlled to do so...😊 In his book about humming Goldman describe all impact on the bodies... When the heart and brain are synchonized, the heart had his own neural network as the gut has one too, when they are synchronized they are amplified; if we add our conscious intention and the vibroacoustic sound effect of the Humming or AUM on the body adding to this synchronization another level of amplification , anything become possible , better sleep as health or happiness experience or more ... Even our dreaming state will be modified as the australian people said... |
Interestingly, humming produces a massive increase in nitric oxide levels in the sinuses. Nitric oxide is incredibly important for body and brain in numerous ways. |
For sure aside from sound/singing meditative practice , humming was used by all mothers with singing to calm and soothe the child... Then save for spiritual and health practice, humming is a social grounding reinforced bonding deeply engrammed in the subconscious mind ...
https://www.buteykobreathing.nz/blog/potential-immune-protective-effects-nitric-oxide-and-humming https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987705006328 |
The fact that musical experience is able to induce "mystical" experience of change in the consciousness levels is not something associated with a low level information content and communication, as a shaking encounter with some unknown and imprevisible event or as with a surprize schock resulting from a totally new phenomenon. On the opposite musical experience elevate and increase the understanding levels of consciousness to new heights in an incremental way... Music can introduce us to the transcendant experience not by decreasing intelligence level and consciousness level like alcool putting us to sleep, in the opposite music increase our intelligence and consciousness perception levels. Read about this analysis content of Bach music : https://journals.aps.org/prresearch/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevResearch.6.013136
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The most amazing musical instrument I have ever encountered was the voice of a girlfriend of mine in college 5 decades ago. This was just her everyday conversational voice. She was not a "singer" as such, but everyone thought she was singing all the time. "Music" doesn't have to be counted or prefigured. It can come spontaneously flowing out of anything at all which is its best surprise. |
Incredible masterclass in french (sorry) about the dead end of atonal music...
But for those who do not understand french i propose only 4 minutes of listenings near 11 minutes in the video...
Among others facts the musician composer and pianist play one of his works on piano with a voluntary input of 2 wrong notes and everybody, even average non musicians , can perceive them as wrong notes...Even without knowing and without ever having heard this music before.
Then he played the first atonal piano piece from 1923 of Schoenberg and put 79 voluntarily wrong notes into the piece and when playing it not one of these wrong notes had been perceived by the specialists of atonal music listening them ...
Wow...
Even if you dont know french listen to this musical test near 11 minutes in the video .... ( the exercise test is near 4 minutes)
This means that our brain is tuned by our history and perhaps tonal music express a meaning which escape us especially if we want to innovate without taking into account the way our body/brain interpret music .
Music is not sound without meaning...
Music is meaning in sound working on our body/soul which recognize the notes and rythm and duration and metabolize them into consciousness levels and emotions...
Music is the history of these successive rememberances but as recreated...
Music is not random sounds nor artificial sounds...It is a living organism...
History is not merely about our tastes .. As said Owen Barfiels poetry " express felt changes in consciousness" it is the same for music and these felt changes in consciousness are kept in our soul and mind and body and became recreated memories and future intuitions ...
This master musician prove the point saying this at 19 minute : "each time tonality is used the discriminatory faculties of the mind are there, if we use atonality these discriminatory faculties vanished"...
He say that after playing without saying which one is the right one and the false one two atonal works , one version well done the other version disfigured... No one can guess which one ... 😊
Then he played a tonal piece and gave one faithfull rendition and one disfigured version without saying which one is which... Everybody guess immediately which is the wrong and which is the false version...😊
Stunning simple demonstration of what is "meaning" in music and how it exist and can be destructed, if we quit the ears/brain/body sound history in some innovation that cannot be recognized nor used as emotionally meaningfull for our soul/brain/body...
Music is a spiritual phenomenon.... Meaning create the past as the future... If we annihilate meaning reducing it to bits , randomness, abstraction, atonality, we annihilate the past and the future... it is called a dead end...
Our civilization is in such dead end right now...
Musical nominalism is the same nominalism that create scientism and ideologies...
Peirce the greatest american thinker battled all his life against nominalism as many other geniuses...he was right ...
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I forgot to say in my post above that Indian music as Jazz is tonal music... The composers in any genre and style of european music can create at this border between tonality and atonality... Scriabin did it in a masterful way... Atonality is a resources , an affordance for tonal composers if it is not used for its own sake as systematized by Schoenberg and after him the Viennese school and others... What about Indian music which is so strange at first listening ? It is tonal also... «Indian music is tonal and has many features in common with Western music. One of the most significant differences is that the primary means of expressing tonality in Indian music is through melody, whereas in Western music it is through harmony (the use of chords).»
Now for chinese and Persian music it is a bit more complex it is not atonal, but is based on a different modes (a type of musical scale coupled with a set of characteristic melodic and harmonic behaviors.) : «Western music is based on a system of tonality, which is built around the concept of major and minor keys. The tonal system is centered around the diatonic scale, which consists of seven notes and their corresponding chords. Western music also uses complex harmonies, counterpoint, and polyphony, which allow for the creation of intricate compositions with multiple layers of melody and harmony. In contrast, Persian music is based on a modal system known as the dastgah system. The dastgah system consists of twelve different modes, each of which is associated with a particular emotional state. Persian music also uses quarter-tone intervals, which are not used in Western music. Persian music is generally monophonic, meaning that there is only one melody being played or sung at a time, although there are exceptions to this rule.»
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Ask yourself how mechanical and electrical interaction can convey musical and sound meanings ? The missing part in this video is inside the brain , inside the neurons, inside the microtubules we are receiving qualitative information which is manifested in us by TIMING all informative sequences in a a form or a WHOLE . Without this timing array of choices coming from inside the informative cosmic field informing us through the hundreds of thousand of microtubules in each neurons we will not be conscious of any meanings we will reacted as robots with no freedom to create by choosing the right timing or the right form speaking to us specifically according to our individual history. No one hear the same . This is my informed opinion not pure science. I am a thinker not a scientist.
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The very important studies that correspond this video above is in this article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z
but for the beginners is is more easier to read this before : https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/ And this one : https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.htm |
now if someone want to go deeper... This Cambridge study confirm the thesis of Akpan J. Essien in acoustics in his book : "Sound Sources" : The book is described here , i bought it 5 years ago... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337721064_Sound_Sources_The_Origin_of_Auditory_Sensations if you cannot afford it you can read this article which will you an idea why this book is the most important i read in acoustics : https://sciencepublishinggroup.com/article/10.11648/10026300 Abstract : «Mechanical, acoustical, and neurophysiological investigations in music, acoustics, and auditory perception repose on the Pythagorean string ratio theory of musical pitch intervals (6th century B.C). Recently, the mechanical validity of the string ratio theory and its psychological import have been challenged and denied on grounds of invariance. In this regard, Essien (2014) demonstrated experimentally that, contrary to established tradition in physics of sound, the tension of a string is not constant when string length is modified even though the balanced-force exerted on the string is held constant. The data revealed the existence of two sources of force in a vibrating string: (1) The oppositely-directed force applied externally to the string (labelled Fex); (2) The force that is the intrinsic property of the string (labelled Fin). The latter is the missing parameter in Pythagorean auditory psychophysics. The omission lured researchers into acoustics and neurophysiology of pitch without an invariant physical correlate of pitch. Essien’s (2014) data showed that all transformations to string length or the balanced-force exerted on a string are various ways to modify the string’s resistance to deformation. Thus, the force in a string varies inversely with string length even though Fex is held constant. In the present paper, string length is shown to have very little or no effect at all on a string’s vibrational frequency and subjective pitch. Because psychoacoustic theories of hearing are founded on the string ratio theory, the data not only offer the missing psychological element that deprived the string ratio theory of a scientific status, but also refute both Ohm’s acoustical law (1843) and Helmholtz’s resonance theory (1877). The force in a string is portrayed as the mechanical parameter in control of pitch regardless of vibrational frequency or spectral structure. Implications for future research in musical acoustics and auditory perception are discussed.» |
Pythagoras was wrong because sound sources are important and sound perceived qualities are rooted in physical perception not in abstract non physical ratio... In a way Leibnitz saying that when we listen music we compute without knowing it is not right and dont tell the story...
music is an embodied perception of the physical vibrating sound sources qualities... We need an ecological theory of audition and of acoustics... Akpan J. essien gave the basis for one...
And i will remind my friends here another reason why we need an ecological theory of sound perception as J.J. Gibson created an ecological theory of visual perception , it is an article about human hearing beating the Fourier limits : https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
For those lazy about reading listen this intro to the matter in the first 4 minutes minutes of radio podcast : https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/news-roundup-tim-revell/
And for those who do want all there is to know in three words there it is : «Imperfection is the peak»-- René Char |
I hope reading the four posts above that hilde45Will be interested and instead of sulking me will apologize for his last insulting post about me and acoustics and will discuss : |
https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/
«Summary: A groundbreaking cross-cultural study has revealed that music universally influences bodily sensations and emotions, transcending cultural boundaries. Researchers from Western and East Asian backgrounds discovered that emotional and structural characteristics of music consistently evoke similar bodily sensations—such as changes in the chest, limbs, and head regions—regardless of cultural background. The study, analyzing responses to music from different traditions, underscores the role of music in eliciting comparable emotional experiences and bodily responses across diverse groups. This research highlights the intrinsic connection between music, emotion, and physical sensation, suggesting a shared human experience that bridges geographic and cultural divides.» «The research also dismantled the notion that music’s impact is purely subjective or culturally relative. Instead, it underscored the existence of cross-cultural, shared links between musical features, bodily sensations, and emotions.» The original research is here : Bodily maps of musical sensations across cultures http://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121 |
«Acoustic cues for perception “represent a narrow-minded Akpan J. Essien The Mechanical Invariance Factor in Musical Acoustics and This article adress is in my post above ... |
hilde45 are you here ? Do you think my post about acoustics are only about room panels ?😁 Now instead of insulting me why not reading and linking all that information together in this 7 posts and i will help you to understand without insulting or sulking you ... And i will link together this information here and the relation with A. I. in the thread about A.I. and music where you quitted because i gave too many posts it seems .. perhaps instead of insulting people discussing is better ... Thanks
By the way if you had not begun to understand yet, this last news about the Cambridge study confirm many other works as Akpan J. Essien work on the yoruba speaking drums and physical basis invariant perception pertaining to the sound source which will revolutionize the way we understand sound erroneously since Pythagoras......
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I just put a very important research which is news in acoustic science and my patronizing friend said :
Anybody with a brain will thank me for these interesting information and news and will discuss with me about them but not our chief patronizing very well known corrector of text Hilde45... Perhaps you are right i like the truth, perhaps i am nuts...I dont exclude that possibility .. 😊 But sorry you are wrong the information above as the information in your thread about A.I. and music are not a "tiny apartment"... You are not ashamed by your insults ? Suppose someone with a working brain read these interesting information, are you not afraid of what he will think about your insults ? By the way these 13 posts contains almost only objective information... Did you remark? and almost no comments from me save to help the readers ... The dude who ramble as an idiot is you not me... You are not very wise and you are mean... I invite you in this thread to help you and go on a conversation finally at last about an acoustic discovery a very important one and the only post you gave is an insult as you did few times since a week now ... «Bears have only one skin»--🤓Groucho Marx 😁😊
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