I am still waiting for someone to explain why a cd player is superior to storing music on a hard drive and going to a dac. Probably because you all know it's not.
Every cd player has a dac. I'll repeat that. Every cd player has a dac. So if you can store the ones and zeros on a hard drive and use error correction JUST ONCE and then go to a high end dac, isn't that better than relying on a cd player's "on the fly" jitter correction every time you play a song? Not to mention the convenience of having hundreds of albums at your fingertips via an itouch remote.
If cd player sales drop, then will cd sales drop as well, making less music available to rip to a hard drive? Maybe, but there's the internet to give us all the selection we've been missing. Has anyone been in a Barnes and Noble or Borders lately? The music section has shown shrinkage worse than George Costanza! This is an obvious sign of things to come.....
People still embracing cd players are the "comb over" equivalent of bald men. They're trying to hold on to something that isn't there and they know will ultimately vanish one day.
I say sell your cd players and embrace the future of things to come. Don't do the digital "comb over".
" I wasn't out to bash anyone. I WAS SIMPLY ASKING SOMEONE TO EXPLAIN THE BENEFITS OF A CDP"
That's not how I read your original post, which contained the following disparaging remark:
"People still embracing cd players are the "comb over" equivalent of bald men. They're trying to hold on to something that isn't there and they know will ultimately vanish one day."
CD players and all audio for that matter often sound much better after a couple of martinis.
A much more effective tweak often than power cords, ICs, new amps, etc.
IS there anybody that does not believe we hear differently day to day depending on mood, body chemistry, etc.? If not, listen, down a couple of martinis and listen again and see if you hear the same thing.
"However, deep down, as painful as it may be to admit it......you all know it's coming (Devilboy)"
I don't care what's coming (unless it's a Russian ICBM). I remember when tube gear was dead, deader than dead, by the 1970's. And vinyl was "dead" after the first (then awful) CDP's came out in the early '80's.
I still have most of my LP's now, & a tube pre-amp......I'm also REALLY happy with my Cary CDP....I'm not gonna sell it b/c some guy who bases his audio preferences on hair styles says I should (?!?).
Or was his argument that only bald guys should sell their CDP's? (I can't believe I bothered to respond to this).
Are you really just now realizing demise of the CD?
My CDP sounds better then my HD/iTunes. That said, I listen to my HD 98% of the time as the sound of the disc actually in the player is only marginal better then my computer files. All of which were ripped directly into iTunes as either AFF or Apple Lossless files. SACDs are fun, but the listenability and the musical enjoyment I get out of my computer set up is on par with spinning redbooks.
I still buy CDs because I have not been able to download music that is bit for bit CD quality. For whatever reason HDTracks will not download to my mac and even if it did the selection is not sufficient to keep me interested for long.
Thus, I'll buy a used disc off Amazon, rip it and shelve it. When bit for bit and/or HiRez downloading becomes ubiquitous, I will be more than happy to stop buy hard copies.
Once I heard how good computer files CAN sound on a friends system, I sold my Naim CDX2/XPSII and purchased a Cary 306 Pro for its digital in/DAC and a MacBook. Every month since(been about a year now), the amount of discs that actually spin in the Cary gets to be fewer and fewer. In fact, I really only use the Cary transport now so it won't seize up in the future.
As for the convenience of using the REMOTE app on my iPone to scroll though my 1500 discs and play any song at will...there is no going back.
I can't wait until we have more standalone "connected audio appliance" pieces like the Linn DS and the upcoming PS Audio PerfectWave DAC w/bridge. I still like to have hard-copies of all my CDs for archival purposes, in addition to a computer-based backup of my ripped music, but I ELIMINATED my "shelves" years ago. For the most part, I don't care about the physical media. It's all in Rubbermaid storage containers under the guest bed now anyhow and I'm happy to have the space back.
Here's where I get nasty: I agree with the original poster almost wholeheartedly. From my vantage point, the "comb-over" generation (including the manufacturers, resellers AND USERS of Hi-Fi in general) are IMO obliterating their own market and making it much less appealing for the younger crowd: price-wise and feature-wise. Baby Boomers who don't get computer stuff: you're dying and taking the industry with you. Please fix this. Almost nobody buys CDs anymore. I live in the DC area and we have had several great local HiFi shops close in the past year or so. Younger folks (like myself: I'm in my late 20's) sadly seem to be more content with the just-good-enough iPod sound quality and superior usability. In college, I used to be more involved with the Head-Fi community and loved headphone systems - as that market age-group matures, I see them matriculating to speaker-based systems, etc. so there will probably always be a small crowd.
What the industry is lacking (or at best, is behind with) is innovation. I see USB DACs as a "comb-over" solution - and I may be offending the strict computer audiophile crowd by saying this, but I do NOT want a PC Computer anywhere near my audio system or entertainment system/TV, for that matter. Personally, I will spend my hard-earned dollars on --and believe the future is in(!)-- purpose-made embedded/integrated systems such as the aforementioned Linn/PS Audio components with an easy-to-use HCI component - iPhone/iPad app, Android app, dedicated controller, whatever... I give major props to Paul McGowan and his group for trying to make this a reality for moderately less money than Linn.
I posted this on "Digital" on purpose. I knew that if I posted it on "PC Audio", then most people would agree with me and that way I wouldn't learn anything. I'm trying to get a different perspective on the subject, so thank you all for your input. Devilboy
Unlikely as most read the "new" threads without regard to which category they are posted in. I am moving toward the computer based audio as it is the future but I will still use cds as the music source until quality downloads are available. To date I have not downloaded any music.
well,we live in the time where there is no hi-def audio format at the moment, so I would wait....(I play LP's and all vintage McIntosh/JBL system for fun in the meantime...)
I would have both. Just buy a cd player with digital input so you can interact with your cd when you want and can still connect a computer to it for ease of use/random play. Why fight over just having one when most good cd players coming out are equipping themselves with digital inputs?
"Look, I'm not out to "bash" anyone for doing whatever makes them happy. I simply wanted to know what makes one stick with a cdp considering all of the benefits of a hd/dac." "I WAS SIMPLY ASKING SOMEONE TO EXPLAIN THE BENEFITS OF A CDP.....FOR THE TENTH TIME." "Apparently Oakleys' computer has some sort of Pratt and Whitney aircraft propeller as a fan. You've got to be kidding me. I'm standing directly in front of my Mac as music is playing (with preamp muted), and I can BARLEY hear anything."
I love it when an OP writes "I just want to know, for someone to explain it to me" and then when someone gives their answer the OP posts "WRONG!!" Cracks me up every time.
"I remember when tube gear was dead, deader than dead, by the 1970's. And vinyl was "dead" after the first (then awful) CDP's came out in the early '80's.
I still have most of my LP's now, & a tube pre-amp......I'm also REALLY happy"
nec·ro·phil·i·a (nkr-fl-) also nec·rophi·lism (n-krf-lzm, n-)
Consider that you buy a music file, and your storage drive crashes. Consider that your back-up also crashes...
Consider also that Apple maintains control of downloaded music files....
With CDs, once you've purchased the disc, you own it forever, and given proper care and storage...
Lots of red herrings in this.
First, if hard drives are that flawed, then the world as we know it is in imminent danger. Every major institution in the world - banks, governments, hospitals, insurers, manufacturers and so on - store the vast bulk of their critical information on computers. And they count on backups to preserve that info.
And, Apple does not maintain control of your downloads. The current downloads have no DRM and Apple has no way to remove them from your computer or backup drive. Perhaps you are confusing this with the Kindle ebook story from last year.
In my particular case, purchased downloads are less than one-quarter of 1% of the collection on my server.
What happens when you lose CDs due to CD rot? What happens when your collection is stolen? What happens when it is damaged in a house fire or windstorm?
You'll have to buy replacements, assuming they are still available on the market. You don't even have the option of looking to a backup. And, if all backups for a HD user fail, he's now in the same boat you are. He gets to go buy new material.
Nothing is risk free, but hard drives are so cheap that multiple backups are a great option and can certainly give you favorable odds.
I certainly have no problem with anyone who wishes to keep their music collection CD or LP based instead of on a music server. However, I think we could do without the "Chicken Little" horror stories.
I am still waiting for someone to explain why a cd player is superior to storing music on a hard drive and going to a dac.
Sure! It is because a CD player is an "application specific" digital audio reproduction unit. The computer is notÂ…..
Probably because you all know it's not.
I am sure audiophiles were as determined as you are when CD format was introduced (not to mention Hi-Rez formats such as SACD), supposedly being "much better than vinyl". To date, and to my knowledge, SOTA vinyl rig and some Pro analog machines are still extremely hard to beat with digital.
Hey, technological progress is great, especially when it offers a great convenience, but when the absolute best audio reproduction quality is required, the story is totally different. :-)
If I had the hair to comb over I'd still keep my CDP until the cost of the Qsonix comes down. As good as computer audio is, there's another post somewhere about just how bad they can sound and how a Hackintosh is the only way to go. And once you've heard the Hack, you'll never go back....
The Qsonix supposedly has all the benefits of computer audio and none of the drawbacks but that $7000-$10000 buy in cost is out the question for me. Computer audio is still growing and in its infancy and much too costly for most of us to take the plunge. What you have right now will be antiquated and in need of updating both software and hardware wise before you know it, if you are still chasing the dragon, which we all are. There is no 'end game' with computer audio, its just another step.
Add my age and comfort level and total lack of knowledge for all things computer based and that's my take.
Mlsstl - You're right. Nothing is 100% safe. I also know that backup Hard Disks tend not to fail when they are not powered. I have two backups - total of 3 1TB drives. Each costs $99 and is dead silent (no fan, heavy metal case). Somebody mentioned 5 hard disk crashes in 4 years. I had 4 PCs in last 23 years at work with no failure.
Quality of computer drive doesn't matter (many CDPs have standard Phillips CDM12 computer drive anyway). CDP has to read data in real time and cannot fail when sector is not readable. Tiniest scratch along the disk longer than 0.1" (4000 bits) makes disk unreadable. Because of that CD uses instead of regular Reed Solomon error correction code Cross Interleaved Reed Solomon that INTERPOLATES incorrect data. My computer program MAX rips CDs as data going hundreds of times to the same sector, if necessary, to get proper checksum. Once I get this on the hard drive quality never changes while CD is getting more scratches and interpolation. Is it (interpolation) audible - not to me. Amount of improvement is most likely not very significant (if any) but it is not worse than CDP.
Tvad wrote: "Theft, house fires and windstorms all apply equally to downloaded files stored on equipment on one's home."
Yes, but I keep one of backups at work. It would be pretty difficult to make copies of 2000 CDs and keep them at different location.
My main objective was to find out why people prefer cd players over a computer/dac combo.
I'm surprised that as far as I can see no one has yet mentioned the jitter issues that can arise with interfaces between dacs and spdif or aes/ebu or usb outputs, but which do not arise with a competently designed one-box player.
Certainly those issues can be and frequently are overcome, but not without some combination of luck; trial and error; careful selection of components, jitter rejection technology, cables, connector types, and even cable length; and in many cases added expense as well.
Obviously there are many other factors which will result in a one-box approach not being the right solution for many people, but the jitter issue would certainly seem like something that should be a significant consideration in the tradeoffs.
For sure music file server devices that are also user friendly will become increasingly prevalent and popular as the technology matures.
So far, you can do it yourself which is less expensive but still significantly complex to do well and in a fail safe manner or buy more expensive integrated solutions that cost more and still may not have all the common user glitches worked out
I'm sorry you've had problems with hard drive crashes. I don't view it as anything more than a maintenance item, rather like periodically needing new tires for your car.
Also, replacing a motherboard does not mean losing data if you have a backup. I know, as I've replaced motherboards before.
Unlike you, I have lost CDs to rot. And I've also lost them due to kids, friends and my own carelessness. The same thing applies to LPs.
And for house fires, FEMA statistics indicate there are 400,000 house fires on average each year. That's a pretty serious number. While I hope no one has one, and if they do music is going to be pretty far down their list for a while, but a simple off-premises hard drive backup solves that problem without the need to repurchase music when they finally get around to this hobby again.
One only needs to peruse the internet and you can find horror stories about any product or device ever made, whether unwanted Toyota acceleration, computer problems, CD players or turntables.
Yes, some people have problems with computer music players, but there are many of us who are quite satisfied with our system and who feel well protected with our backup systems.
You're the one with the doom and gloom scenario so you shouldn't be surprised with others point out the weak points of the alternatives. Everyone needs to find their own comfort zone.
How long does it take for a cloud based backup service to back up 1Tb worth of files I wonder?
Also, how long to restore 1 Tb of files as well if needed, I wonder? I would think it would take a long time.
If it has to go over wireless G it would take forever I think. A hard wired network connection would be better.
Bottom line is I suspect many might find restoring there files from a remote service on the internet to be a lot harder and time consuming than might be expected.
My solution is two 1.5 Gb+ Seagate USB drives and using the backup software that comes with the drives from Seagate which reliably backs up any new files in target locations using the backup schedule you set up.
I have had other drives/backup software that was not able to accomplish this quickly and reliably and I dumped that pretty quickly.
Bottom line is setting up backups may not always be a slam dunk if you have to set it up from scratch first time.
WHoops, I meant to say I use two 1.5 Tb+ USB drives, not 1.5Gb+. 1.5 Gb would only buy you about 3 CDs or so I believe whereas 1.5Tb should hold 1000X as much or about 3000 CDs.
Tvad: What does that mean? Replacing a hard drive every so often?
Sure. Why not. Its a mechanical device. Drives are cheap. I replace them about ever 4 years or so. Duplicate the old drive to the new one and you're off and running. Perhaps the schedules are different, but my turntables, open reels, cassette decks and the like also require periodic maintenance.
Tvad: To me, cloud based back-up (I assume that's what you're referring to...apologies if it's not)
Nope, that's not what I do. I keep an off premises USB drive backup and bring it home about every week to two to catch up. The drive can be at work, at your parents or anywhere else away from your home.
It could be cloud based, but that's hardly a requirement. Transfer time would be a bigger issue for this than security. It's not like we're talking about your banking records.
If nothing else, backups are an option that is extremely impractical for LP and CD collections. If you have a large collection, buying or creating duplicates and storing them off premises is not even a possibility for most people.
I've simply not had the problems with a music server that you keep coming back to. I have a substantial and extremely eclectic collection (49,000 songs) and I love the ability to easily and rapidly search and access material in a manner that would simply be impossible with a LP or CD collection. That's important to me.
If you go back to my very first post in this thread, I concluded my comments with: "The nice thing about this hobby is people can pursue it in whatever fashion makes them happy. I've found what works for me and have no urge to go back."
i like a few pics and lyrics etc so the cd, while not as good as the lp cover art, does meet that need. i buy cds and downloads about 50/50 right now. i am also always looking for 2 and 3 dollar cd.s like elizabeth mentioned. i still like record stores and going thru bins. since i live in the ozarks i sometimes want a new release NOW! last 2 i bought from itunes were tom petty MOJO and aljandro escovedo STREET SONGS OF LOVE, i was not going to drive 150 miles for 2 new cds. sound quality seems excellent on hd and cd and i use a music fidelity dac. currently watching shark week on hdtv{no sound] and listening to music. just like in the 70;s. thanks john
I remember one day in the 1980's, I walked into a local record store and saw some computer softwear on display. I thought, hey, what's a record store doing selling softwear? Looked into it and learned that those CD's was music intended to replace my beautiful LP's. Blasphemy I thought. Computers will never, ever get near my hi fi. Well, years later, I did get a CD player (kept my vinyl rig) and years later, I do have a pretty great sounding music server. Take it for what you will. Took years and years for me to finally find CD sound acceptable. Here, the non-computer savey guys will take years to bite the bullet and realize how great music servers are and do what they need to do to have one set up. Will it sound better than your vinyl, CD, reel to reel or FM sources? Do we care? It will be fun, sound good and will allow you experience hours of uninterupted music of your favorite music. Kind of like FM except your the DJ. That's the key here. It's supposed to be about the music and there isn't an easier way to get to your music. Hey, I still play my CD when I want something special (and my esoteric sounds better than my Berkeley) but the Berkeley sure does sound good. There is no more convenient way to play your music than on a server, but, absolutely not, the CD ain't dead. Not even close.
I rarely use the CD player anymore. I have been using a PC for several years now, and the hardware has been evolving constantly. I do NOT use MP3's, I, like many others who responded, buy cds and rip them. I am using a Maudio sound card that was designed for studio recording, and it has a sweet 24/96 DAC on board, plus you can output an analogue stereo signal while you feed a digital coax out at the same time (this allows A/B between the card and my DAC). I am convinced that my server sounds at least as good as the cdp(I am using a Pioneer Elite stable platter with a Musical Fidelity DAC). Having said all that, NOTHING trumps vinyl! I suspect that it is partly due to the way our brains process sound. There has been extensive reseach on this subject. Go to www.highemotionaudio.com for more detail on the research and how it has been applied - specifically in speaker design.
I am 45 years old and I have approximately 8000 cds (and 10,000 lps). Two teenage sons, a wonderful spouse who likes to spend time with me. A job that requires on average 65-70 hours a week. I am on the board of a radio station and host a regular 2 hour radio show a week. I help produce two significant annual musical festivals, take an occasional guitar lesson and travel to listen to all kinds of live music 4 to to 8 times a month.
What I don't have is, time. Time to learn the intricacies of a computer based system, time to intergrate that computer based system into my listening room full of expensive bulky audio gear, time to burn those 8000 cds, time to regularly back up those 8000 cds and time to download and organize future releases on an ongoing basis. (Ordering off of Amazon is quick and the boxes just magically show up in my office).
If I was 13 again, and starting from scratch, I probably would have everything on a hard-drive and using a Soolas or a Mac/DAC combo as part of a listening room, but I am at capacity to learn and more importantly implement new tricks.
Now I am staring down the reality of running out of space to store my vinyl and cds in an accessible fashion, so downloading may be my forced future if I am going to have access to future releases in, but I am going to hold out as long as I can until the hard drive solutions are more elegant and effective.
Okonrad, your situation sounds like you have a project for your sons. They could tidy this up in no time give the tools and incentive. My daughters have been invaluable with my learning process. :)
Elizabeth makes some good points and one of them is resale value. I'm sticking with CDs because I would rather have thousands of dollars invested in CDs than thousands of dollars invested in nothing. A lot of folks might argue they only like one song on a CD and why buy the whole album, but the rest of the CD gives exposure to music you might not have overwise heard. I have bought most of my CDs and records for one song and eventually liked more songs with time. What this usually boils down to is cost and it is cheaper to download one song than buy the entire album.
i listen almost every day and cannot remember the last time i used my cd player. it took me about 8-10 months to rip all my cds to server. i did it several at a time as stanndard procedure prior to listening. 12300 tracks total now and growing.
Devilboy, what can I say that hasn't already been said here. Every once in a while, I come across someone who pangs to put the last nail in the coffin of CD. Perhaps there is a Technical advantage to Hard Drive Music Storage. The Technology is not the problem, it is the abysmal attitude by Computer Manufacturers towards anything High End with Computer Music Storage. In their own words, "The Computer was NEVER REALLY DESIGNED for Music Storage"! So, how long do we have to wait before someone actually DESIGNS a Computer for Music Storage? Forever? Go into Best Buy and talk to Geek Squad about High Definition Multi-Channel Music Storage. WHAT'S THAT? Hey Pal, it's just what you see! So long as I am hearing THAT, I am going to hold on to my CD Player like the only High Fidelity Life Preserver left on the Planet! Put the final nail in the Coffin of CD? What part of, "YOU ARE NOT READY!", don't you understand? Your Computer Industry is in COMPLETE DENIAL that High End Audio even exists in todays market. I presume that you are an Audiophile, Devilboy, why do you support an Industry that says you as an Audiophile don't exist? You are going to trust this Industry to control any future Standard of Sound Quality? They don't even know what Sound Quality is, Hell, they don't even know what an Audiophile is. Don't worry, Devilboy, I still believe you exist even if your Industry doesn't! It maybe small comfort, but it is the best that I can do!
Petty: "The computer was never really designed for music storage". Who cares if the computer wasn't originally DESIGNED for music storage. Who cares if the computer industry is "in complete denial that high end even exists". You ask, "why do you support an industry that says you as audiophiles don't exist". You don't think there are hard drives in recording studios?
Going through the responses, I've noticed that the majority of you have not gone the hard drive route because you don't want to spend the TIME copying your music to a hard drive. That doesn't tell me WHY you think cd players are superior to hard drives. That tells me you are lazy.
Ones and zeros have no memory where they come from, (hard drive or optical disc). What matters is the digital to analog conversion that follows. The cd player is device that has to retreive ones and zeros and then convert them to analog. That's all. A hard drive/dac does the same thing.
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