The best separates between $2500-3000. Moving on from the original Rogue Sphinx Intg..

I was also informed by the Rogue tech that the sound may not be quite as good through the op-amp device, but he also claimed the op-amp is a very good device.

To Almarg and others, I missed your e-mails about the NuPrime ST-10 amp and actually responded, but it was not posted. Something must be screwed up with AG's thread and posting system

To Almarg, I got an a definite answer from Rogue HQ today about the Sphinx integrated variable output line, they call a "pre-out".  If I connect  a separate power amp to line 3 which is a variable output, the amp must have a input impedance of 10,000 ohms or more. The reason is this: the front panel function DO NOT go through the two tubed output stage of the Sphinx pre-amp, but through a special op-amp that allows the use of the volume and balance control, and also the phono input and CD input. The phono has it own line marked phono, so lines 1 and 2 are available for a CD player or tuner which I have

I was also informed by the Rogue tech that the sound may not be quite as good through the op-amp device,, but he also claimed the op-amp is a very good device. I am not sure what that means because I know nothing about op-amps, their function, or their quality rating.  However it is worth taking a shot at it whatever amp I decide.  The Odyssey Stratos Plus is high on the list..

However, if the sound is equal  to what I have, or only marginally better, or worse, inferior to what I have, I will then hunt for a new pre-amp.  BTW, about a year ago, I replaced the two stock tubes in the Sphinx output stage with Mullard CV4003 tubes. This was based on the recommendation by a member who also had a Rogue Sphinx.  The purpose was reduce some of the edge and bright tinge that is part of the sound because of Hypex Class D amp. It worked, but did not reduce all of the edginess or glare.  

Al, or others, your thoughts and comments on the op-amp use in the Rogue Sphinx  will be appreciated. 

Also, a member has a BAT VK-250 SS amp for sale. He mentioned also that he used it with BAT VK-31 pre-amp, and it was the best combo to date, even though he replaced both with ARC Reference separates Both were issued in 2006 when he bought them, and he kept them for 10 years.  The review on VK-250 in TAS in Nov. 2008 was politely neutral about its sound quality; I did not find any other reviews so far. I will be googling up reviews on BAT VK-31 pre-amp soon I don't know depending the pre-amp feature if the combo is worth the money, and he is going to have to come up with a very sharp quote far under $3000. to get me motivated.   Thanks again, Jim   .

What about the new NuPrime ST-10 digital amp??   NuPrime bought out NuForce's, and totally  redesigned their line of electronics. The one review I read in TAS about the power amp ST-10 was very strong regarding its performance. 

However, is this just another variation of class D amplification,  possibly escaping the class D house sound... that is, bright and edgy??. I don't want to pay $1595  to find out.  Thank you, Jim

Does the NuPrime ST-10 digital amp (150 RMS) qualify as a Class D amp, or a variant of Class D??

Although the ST-10 is a “digital” power amplifier, it is not a standard Class D switching amplifier. According to NuPrime’s owner’s manual, “Instead of the conventional sawtooth configuration, NuPrime’s patented circuit design uses an analog-modulating signal that adds neither noise nor jitter. Rather than reverting to off-the-shelf solutions, NuPrime’s in-house advances have further unlocked the switching amp’s potential without the difficulties pure digital-switching amplifiers simply cannot avoid.” The cliché that should follow would be, of course, “Not your father’s Class D amplifier.”

The term "class D" is sometimes misunderstood as meaning a "digital" amplifier. While some class-D amps may indeed be controlled by digital circuits or include digital signal processing devices, the power stage deals with voltage and current as a function of non-quantized time. The smallest amount of noise, timing uncertainty, voltage ripple or any other non-ideality immediately results in an irreversible change of the output signal. The same errors in a digital system will only lead to incorrect results when they become so large that a signal representing a digit is distorted beyond recognition. Up to that point, non-idealities have no impact on the transmitted signal. Generally, digital signals are quantized in both amplitude and wavelength, while analog signals are quantized in one (e.g. PWM) or (usually) neither quantity.

Does the NuPrime ST-10 digital amp (150 RMS) qualify as a Class D amp, or a variant of Class D?? 

NuPrime bought out the former NuForce company, and redesigned the entire line of components.  Some units have received  good  to VG reviews, the ST-10 amp in particular.  However, it is  a new company who knows where it will in 5 years.   Thanks, Jim 

He indicated that the variable input ( pre-out) was used to connect a second amp or subwoofer.

Schubert 4-10-2013:
I bought myself a new AVA Synergy 450 for XMAS, it much outclassed the Odyssey amp I was using, very dynamic and enables me to hear every line in the Symphonic music I primarily listen to. My biggest complaint is cheap plastic speaker terminals placed in tight space pretty much limits you to banana plugs....

Schubert 12-31-2014:
I have had a Synergy 450 for 2 years, first time in 40 years I haven't been looking for a different amp.  Sounds like a high-quality 100 watt tube amp using NOS output tubes better than any currently available.  Easily betters the Hafler, Odyssey, Belles, McCormack and Quad amps I used before.

Al. Thank you for the response. The link you sent clearly show the back of Sphinx original integrated. I received an e-mail back from a Rogue tech named, Nick, who basically  reproduced the bullet points I sent you. He indicated that  the variable input ( pre-out) was used to connect a second amp or subwoofer. 

I emailed back to clarify and confirm whether that connection will "bypass" the Sphinx internal amp, and most importantly ,also allow the pre-amp controls to function with the outboarded amp in place.

Maybe, I am just dense, but I need to confirm the use of the all the pre-amp functions  when used with the outboarded amp.

BTW,  the Ayre V5xe is too expensive for me at $2900. I have not inquired if the seller would accept a lower offer, though only 6 days remain on his ad. But, I appreciate the heads up.

The information that the ARC 100.2 not being a variation of class D amp design is good news. That may account for the rave reviews it received in  a few mags, and customer testimonials. Though, you point about its an age and possible diminished sound quality is a viable concern

Lastly, there was a review in Tone magazine of Van Alstine's FET Value CF Vacuum Tube Pre-amp Line stage ($1899)  by one of its staff writers. The review praised it build quality and its overall sound quality, but there was some hesitation on the writer to crown it the best pre-amp in the under $2000 range. He did highly praise the built in phono as a steal at $249 ( as noted, there is a MM/MC stage for $329, both are optional). 

Jeff Dorgay offerd some follow up comments and felt some of the criticisms of the pre-amp's restricted soundstage was system or amp related  His experience with the unit was a big soundstage with either AVA own amp, or PASS Labs, ARC, Simaudio, etc. 

Thanks again to all who have offered comments. 

FWIW I would hesitate to replace a newer amp based on switching technology (Class D) with any older ones.

I shot off an e-mail today to specifically to Mark O’Brien about whether any of the inputs numbered 1, 2, 3, can be used as true pre-amp out.

I would think that the magic of good sound would lie first in the pre-amp, not necessarily the power amp, unless it grossly under powered. Though, from my limited understanding of power amps having owned a few, power high current, low noise and especially low THD and IMD are the requirements to make a qualitative jump in sound quality.

Al, Thank you again for your vast audio knowledge. I shot off an e-mail today to specifically to Mark O'Brien about whether any of the inputs numbered 1, 2, 3, can be used as true pre-amp out. 

I owned a Creek 5350SE Classic in 2007, and eventually used it as a pre-amp stage which is activated by pushing in a button and removing pre-amp shorting bar.  Simple   . If necessary, I will cut and paste your e-mail to answer the questions. you provided

BTW, I was somewhat surprised by your recommendation of the Ayre V5xe amp, and just because of the price It is also a monster weighing 75lbs. I would be in traction for months.  Nevertheless, I would think that the magic of good sound would lie first in the pre-amp, not necessarily the power amp, unless it grossly under powered. Though, from my limited understanding of power amps having owned a few, power  high current, low noise and especially low THD and IMD are the requirements to make a qualitative jump in sound quality. I saw a distinct demonstration of this in 1988 when I sold my APT Holman combo.  (The amp was kind of wimpy even at its alleged  rating 100RMS) to an Aragon 4004MK II, and a CJ PV-8.  Though the true proof would have been to listen to Aragon amp through Holman pre-amp. Nevertheless the Aragon was superior almost across the board, though a bit on the bright side, even through the tubed CJ PV-8. I will let you know what Mark O'Brien reports.

BTW, do you know, or have auditioned, or owned, one of the Van Alstine. The CL Ultra Vaccum tube pre-amp line stage which supposedly is their best  at $1899 (add 627 to that number for a remote and VA's MM/MC phonostage.)  There are two other less expensive pre-amp line stages SL Vision, and EC full vaccum tube pre-amp. Both are $899 plus $627  for remote and phono. (Frank claims the second one is a bit more"engaging")  

Yes, both are doable, but  the top dog VA pre-amp costing $1000 more might be the better and wiser choice.  If so, a used Khartago Plus amp, or used Stratos Plus might be the best "budget" choice I can make amp at this time, though I wish the Khartago has more power.

BTW, the seller on e-bay sold the ARC 100.2 for $1425 from his starting price of $1750. This as I mentioned was supposedly  the best ARC SS amp   It did get convincing reviews.   Thanks again. I will keep you posted.  

Jim thanks.

FWIW the demo I had with Sphinx and Pharoah about a year ago was with larger newer Maggies, don’t recall which exactly. The Maggies were singing quite well with either but particularly with larger Pharoah. I did not get to compare with ARC and Rogue tube amp separates there but my dealer indicated Pharoah was his favorite. He also had comparable Sonus Faber for demo that I did not get to hear.

I owned older Maggies for many years. They are not efficient and thrived off good quality higher power amps, tube or SS, but not necessarily high current.

I have heard but am not a Goldenear Triton fan to-date but would think the Sphinx would do pretty well with those. Goldenear Aon monitors I liked a lot, though smaller.

If you are planning a move to Maggies in any case, might be worth trying the Sphinx with those first just to see.

To Lowrider:  A very interesting suggestion, assuming there are integrated amps that either provide  sound quality equal to separates or  offer superior sound to them. 

I have done some research before I launched the current thread about separates. I rejected or bypassed IA that were either just slightly above  average based  on my $2500-$3000 budget range, or more money like $3000-$4000.  So far, I can up with new the Roksan Kandy 3 integrated  amp which has a remote and an MM phono stage ( no  official report on its quality) and no phono input on phono stage.  It is a 150RMS, was greatly like by the blog HI-FI News and the shaky  "Audioreview."  It retails for $2700.  

One drawback it has a "Bluetooth" feature which I don't need or want ( channel the money into a better phono or a headphone) feature. Nevertheless there are 2 audio dealer in Los Angeles county. Both  offer about 10% discount, but the killer is the 8 or 9%  California state sales tax  There is dealer in Colorado, but I think he will not sell into a area that has other Roksan dealer which he carries, so I can sale some coin on tax..

All, I know about this company is that it is English, the new K-3 is supposedly superior than it the previous K-2. Roksan is not a household word throughout the industry to my knowledge, but still considered high end(?). Overall, despite the RMS power of 150, it may sound only marginal better than the Sphinx v.1 or maybe not as good. One review did note some edginess at higher volumes.  So there it is; However, there may be a better integrated out there in my price range.  I know the Vincent equipment has been recommended on and off by members. But the reviews never were convincing to me, and I don't to get on  home trial merry go round.

To Mapman, My current speakers are Golden Ear Technology 7's, but I am considering for the future, the new Magneplanar .7. which some members claim sound better than the Maggie 1.7r

   Thanks for your recommendations. 

To Almarg,  A very worthy suggestion. However, the Sphinx v.1  i was informed  by  the Rogue Director of Sales has no pre-amp out for a outboarded basic power( seems incredible)  HOWEVER, I DECIDED TO   CHECK THE MANUAL WHICH SAYS IN BULLET POINTS:

"LINE 3:

Variable outputs( for a subwoofer  OR second amplifier)

Fixed  outputs ( for a headphone amp or for recording)" 

What follow on the same page is instruction for connecting up a "turntable
Connecting headphones

Connecting the Sphinx to a power outlet

Connecting a subwoofer to the Sphinx

However on the same page it does not mention anything aV5ebout connect a SEPARATE POWER AMP

BTW, there is loose insert page titled "Sphinx Quick Setup FAQ"

Bullet point # 6 states: Line 1, 2, 3, are for line level inputs such as a DAC, tuner, CD player, or outboard phono section"

Again, no mention of a outboarded basic power amp.

I considered your suggestion about using a separate power amp to beef up the power output but also provide much better sound quality. I e-mailed Rogue, and spoke to I believe the Sales Manager, NOT  Mark O'Brien who is the CEO and head product designer of the company. The gentleman I mentioned e-mailed claimed he checked  with technical support, and the claimed there was no pre-amp output.  At the time, it was not a top priority, but it seems he was mistaken. Let me know your thought on what I provided from the manual. Tomorrow,  I will. call Rogue and get Mark O'Brien on the phone and ask him about whether v.1 has a pre-amp.

Regarding the Ayre V5xe power amp. I think that is a bit steep in price, and wonder if I could possibly buy something as good or equal to this amp for less money. I know Ayre products are high quality and built a tank, because I own an fully upgrade Ayre CX7e mp CD player which is outstanding. Nevertheless, you point is well taken. about "possibly" using the Sphinx v.1 for a pre-amp only  From what I read the new version Sphinx v.2 despite its upgrades may lack a pre-amp out.  let me your thoughts.   I will keep you (and others posted)   Cheers.

The compact, beautifully built V-5xe delivers 150Wpc into 8 ohms and features single-ended and balanced inputs and speaker-wire terminals made by Cardas. Though it lacked some power in the bass and sacrificed “a little of that you-are-there-ness” produced by the best single-ended-triode amps, the V-5xe offered a highly resolving, dynamic, harmonically pleasing sound that was never fatiguing. “Open, airy, and sweet,” said ST. “What more do you want?” (Vol.29 No.5)

OK, so without droning over my audio history, let me say that it may be time to suspend this quest for separates, because I am getting opinions from every side and many often cancel out each other related to equipment,  I may have expressed a growing interest . But that is OK, because I don't want to shell out  $2500 for components used or new or a combo of both to find out that the sound even after burn-in is only marginally better.

Schussor, Thank you for the reply. I appreciate your time and comments. The Rogue Pharoah does have many of the features I require, and more power. However, i question whether it will sound much better than my Rogue current Rogue Sphinx v1  and especially the upgraded version Sphinx v.2. ( cost of upgrades and shipping is about $500)  Nevertheless, I cannot afford to purchase it new at $3800, but in time a used one may come up on Audiogon in the $2500-2800  price range.

BTW, if you have the time, read my response to Almarg above my response to you, It offers a good overview of where I am at in this quest for separates, and the components I have considered. If you have  any knowledge of the CJ pre-amp line stages, or the Quicksilver I cited, please let me know  Thanks, Jim  .

To Almargm  Thank you for your advice, but you need not apologize for a " "negative post"  You are usually right.  I feared that  the ARC 150.2 and 300.2 were just  spin offs of another class D version. I mentioned in other threads in the past that I owned the RED DRAGON M-500 mono blocks about 4 years. Il loved the way they looked and they had plenty of power. The pre-amp of those days was a BEL Canto Pre3 which is excellent with an outstanding remote control.  This combo was  hooked to  Acoustic Zen Adagios  Hardly a shabby system!!  However in less than one hear, I began to hear or discern  bright and edgy sound. They were not defective, and I had taken great care in making  sure that pre/ power amp  out impedances were compatible So, I decide to downsize , and bought the Rogue Sphinx v.1, but later and reluctantly sold the Adagios because of their weight, and difficulty in moving them around

. I proceeded to buy the Golden Ear Technology 7's which were the rave of CES 2012. They sound very good, and about I year later bought a pair of  Wharfdale 80th  Anniversary Denton speakers a smallish bookshelf to play around with. . They are colossal and amazing speakers and actually sound better that is, more natural than GET 7's  They also are comfortable with the Sphinx integrated. Just yesterday, while listen to them, I thought why not just stick with this sound and save the money because how much better are the Dentons, or GET' 7's going to sound with approx. $2500-$3000  worth of separates . BTW, about a year ago I changed the Sphinx two output tubes to Mullards 4003CV's on recommendation by another member who claimed the Mullards took most of the edge off of Rogue's  Hypex Class D amp.  It did but not totally.

I feel like I am chasing my tale. on this new quest. The question is not "What am I trying to improve. in the sound??  I don't think many audiophiles are not trying  to improve one aspect of  their system's sound in particular, as much as looking for sound that is either "just right" for them or just sounds right.  In terms of speakers the Denton deliver this quality in spades.

You and comrade Schussor who response follows yours, and many other  members have far more knowledge of high end than I do. In retrospect after over 41 years involved in audio, I have concluded that I was just a dabbler, that is, not committed to spending more money or big bucks to get what I wanted, except for my second high end system which I bought at 50 % because I worked  part-time in an high- end audio shop the from 1987 to 1991.  I bought $5600 system for about $ 2500 including speaker cable and interconnects..

OK, so without droning over my audio history, let me say that it may be time to suspend this quest for separates, because I am getting opinions from every side and many often cancel out each other related to equipment,  I may have expressed a growing interest .  But that is OK, because I don't want to shell out  $2500  for components used or new or a combo of both to find out that the sound even after burn-in is only marginally better.  

At the same time the speakers, I currently own are not the  of magnitude of Wilsons or upper tier Focal, Nola,, Magneplanar, etc.. Also, what I have in speakers may not really demonstrate the quality of the pre-amp and amp I choose.. 

To date the amp situation, the ARC 150.2 was sold on ebay. So that is out, and the seller of  ARC 100.2  will not budge on his $1550 offer. Despite its alleged cult status as the best SS amp ever made by ARC, I feed it is worth possibly $950-1100, and no more. It is only 100RMS, and may not drive Maggie .7  to their state of art performance should I go in that direction  this year. . I can not go for 1.7r's because they are too big for my listening room, and surprisingly a few members and owners claim the new  Maggie.point 7 sounds better.

Lastly, on the pre-amp scene , the Van Alstine SL Vision preamp and its  full vacuum tube brother are in the running ( both are $899, but I was informed by an anonymous audiogon member, that AVA $1899 pre-amp is the killer, and to avoid the other two which he heard at the AXPOXA  and they sounded awful.). . Keep in mind, that  $627  must be added to the retail price of all there pre-amp if your need the optional remote and MM/MC phono stage .  Two other pre-amp is the Conrad Johnson  pre-amp line stage which received a rave review by Sterophile's Larry Greenhill in December 2002 which makes the piece at least 14 years old. There is one for sale on AG, and the newer and current ET3 pre-amp line stage on ebay. 

However, there  are  many testimonials to the CJ 18LS which would require headphone amp and phono stage, both which I need   The last horse in the race is made by Quicksilver and called the "QuickSilver Remote Line stage"   Very good reviews on  the blog Audioreview, but they are old and short.   The unit requires both phono and headphone amps which  would jack up its resale price.for me     Cheers, Jim    .      .   

Sunnyjim 6-21-2016 4:57 pm EDT
I have seen a used ARC 150.2 amp on ebay which is 150RMS. It looks clean but was, according to the seller was issued in 1993 which means it is 23 years old. It got mixed reviews, some loved it; some claim it is garbage. Seller wants $1400, but that is too much. I believe its market value may be $950 regardless of it ARC pedigree. It is either a tube or hybrid amp, and the seller claimed he upgraded two tubes.

Sunnyjim 6-25-2016 4:54 pm EDT
I am pretty much sold on either the ARC 100.2 or the ARC150.2. I like Odyssey amp products, but ARC always delivers high quality products. But this can change as I get closer to making a decision.

To Johnny R.   Thank you for recommendations:  I am pretty much sold on either the ARC 100.2 or the ARC150.2.  I like Odyssey amp products, but ARC always delivers high quality products. But this can change as I get closer to making a decision.

However,  a new spike has been added to this merry go round.. I investigated the Audio By Van Alstine recommended by a member on this thread, and again had set my mind on either FL Vision pre-amp, or the all vacuum tube pre-amp ( I forgot the model number). Both are 899.00, but remote and phono stage are optional and add $627 to the base price of the pre-amp. 

However I got an e-mail via Audiogon's message system, out of the blue from a guy who claims he heard both at CES or AXPONA, and claimed they sounded  bad and to avoid both, He suggested and recommended checking out Audio Illusions pre-amp line stages.  However, I cannot locate them on AG's index of manufacturers.

I ran across a thread  from 2013 which offered several recommendations and comments about Audio Illusions pre-amp line stages.  So, I need to check it out before making any type of decision..  Thanks again to those who responded