I have a few that have gone bad. The most noticeable was Sade's disc "Promise" It skipped constantly and when I took it out of the player and held it up to the light, it had hundreds of tiny pinholes that you could see right through the label. It appeared that the "silver" or aluminum coating containing the information was slowly disintegrating. On a few other discs, the silver plus the label had pinholes. Maybe some sort of chemical reaction between the label and the information layer? Most of my cd's are fine. A Kinks and Joan Armatrading discs I bought in the 80's still work fine as do 99% of my collection. And as everyone knows, any damage to the label side will wipe out the information directly beneath it.
The awful truth about CDs, do they have the same shelve life as LP's ?
The answer is properly not. Recent studies have shown that the chemicals used in their manufacture of CDs have reduced their life expectancy to ten years, not all but many, as per Paul Mcgowans email. The suggestion was given that if you have suspect CD's they should be re-copied. But my question is how do you identify these? I can tell you that I have a great deal of LPs and I can play anyone of these with great success and some are 40 years old. This no doubt would give some audiophiles another good reason to hold onto their belief that LPs are the way to go.
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OK, I'm going to jump on the bandwagon now. I've been buying CDs since 1984 and I am unaware of a single CD that I own that shows any sign of degradation. Admittedly, I did not buy many early CDs because they sounded like crap and hi-end players were really expensive at that time. However, I do have many from the 1980s without a single failure, AFAIK. I also have a buch of LPs from the same period. They have not failed either........ |
ebm, calm down, nobody said that CDs weren'tt a viable medium for music and if I have a preference for LPs, it is of little consequence. My original question on this thread was a concern for the longevity of CDs because of an email I received from Paul McGowan, I wanted input from other members to see if there was any truth to his statement. Keep in mind I too own a lot of CDs. |
I have around 300 CDs. They are stored indoors, in sleeves, not in the car. Truthfully, I don’t listen to them very often any longer. But I do have a few that have deteriorated. When I’ve played them, they sound sort of like an album with something sticky on them. Like a "fuzzy" sound in the playback. It’s a few... less than ten... but it’s still there, for sure. Someone above commented that you can just rip them onto a new CD/R, but that doesn’t work. It just records the "fuzzy" sound. So, I think that like anything else, they aren’t truly a "forever" medium. |
Hi, My 2 cents. I have a few commercial CD's from 1985 that developed spots/deterioration in their inner layer(s). I cannot feel then on the outside layer. The were manufactured in USA by WEA Manufacturing Inc. record label is Elektra/Asylum. I keep all my CD's in binders. So far it is a real minority that are damaged like this. My opinion is that it all depends in the quality of the manufacturing. With CD-R's (mixes), I have several that have gone really bad with time; to the point that I have to throw them away. It probably was the qualityof the CD-R materials back then. |
I'm sure there are a few out there, but it is rare for audiophiles to not own at the very least a CD player, as there is a lot of good music that is not available on vinyl. Yes, their systems will be optimized for vinyl. On the other hand, there are a lot of audiophiles who don't own turntables. A very good AD converter can be had for a list price of $399, the HRT Linestreamer+. Go up to $2k and you have multiple choices, including Benchmark and many others. PS Audio is closing out their current phono stage with built in AD converter for $1k. I have digitized many of my favorite LPs, for convenience, and to preserve them. It is nice when wanting to play one or two tracks off an album, to just click on a few links, rather than having to cue it up. Of course digital files aren't going to give you the same experience as holding that album cover in your hands. I have vinyl that I purchased over 45 years ago, the records themselves are in mint condition, which I find very impressive, as they have been played on five different turntables with the first two, not being very good. Nobody is using a BSR mini changer and bragging about how great it is. But, surprisingly, those records, are in mint condition. The same can't be said for the covers. Glued seams have come apart, even with careful handling. So those albums have been digitized, and only get played rarely, as the digital copies through a really good DAC, sound good, very good. As to dyes, I believe he was talking about the labels. There is no standard I am aware of with the materials used, and looking at them, the different textures, and colors, makes me think that some probably have dyes in them. Read the other posts where they talked of the labels changing color. When I mentioned enthusiastic, I was referring to new products, and differences that may be much easier to hear on their reference system, than on a mid level or entry level system. |
jeffstar, if your gear is directed/optimized toward vinyl then most likely you don't even have D/A converter, much less A/D. In addition nobody would spend money to buy decent A/D converter to digitize all their LPs predicting ahead of time that some might get damaged. Even if you can copy the music from LP you cannot copy LP itself and many people will tell you that it is not the same. On the other hand you can even renew scratched CDs by ripping and copying them to CD-Rs - giving them new life. I have all my CDs on hard drive (+2 backups) and will never loose them. As for Mr. McGowan - his claims are on the verge of being funny and if he claims that commercial CDs have dye he is uniformed at best. Enthusiastic uninformed, I agree. |
The only fault I can find is that Paul may not have done much research, before his daily post. He may have received it from a trusted source. It is not the first time I had heard about CD rot. But I always figured it had more to do with non audiophiles who don't handle their media with the respect that we do. CDs used in cars, stuck in those visor sleeves, leaving them laying on the dashboards, exposing them to sun and heat. Oily fingerprints, on both Cds and LPs. I have great respect for Paul McGowan, they run one the best customer service oriented businesses, I know of. I do believe a player is in the works, but they just recently released a new SACD/CD transport, so he certainly is not telling anyone it is time to move past physical discs .And it does tell you what the problems are. The OP's headline, reads like a tabloid headline, you'd see in a grocery store check out line.I read that post the day it came out, and I didn't find it overly dramatic, the sky wasn't falling. If you have any CDs or LPs that can't be replaced by downloads or remasters, then it might be wise to make a few safety copies. If you have a decent AD converter, you can digitize LPs that will sound very good. To me it is one those mysteries, why don't commercial CDs sound identical to the master tapes, but I can digitize an LP, that sounds just like that LP, and I can remove the ticks and pops when necessary. Paul McGowan is certainly not a flake. His enthusiasm is genuine. |
It's quite possible Paul does not. Sorry Paul. If there are problems with polycarbonate plastics after 10 years then I suggest we should all think twice about getting in an airplane and driving our cars. I have see discs that are not properly stored or have been mistreated (where the lacquer layer is compromised) in high humity climates/locations show signs of deterioration. But like anything that you want to preserve its about storage and care. |
I have to agree with many above. I recently transferred my entire CD collection which I began in 1985. Many treated with Armour All and Green marker on the edges!!! Of the thousand or so CD's, I had trouble transferring exactly 1 track. And to be fair, I was able to use a different CD drive and get through that one. It is easily arguable that CDs are not "perfect sound forever", but certainly not gone in 3 decades! |
I have recently finished a project ripping 18,000 Cd's to hard drive. I had one that had deteriorated and was unplayable. The CD's in the project were mostly classical, with most of the Hyperion catalogue included, but with lots of jazz and popular genres from every sort of manufacturer. They were as much as 30 years old. I would have to say that I don't lose any more sleep over my CD's than I do over my 10,000 LP's. There was an issue with CD's from one English plant from the late 80' and early 90's that affected not only Hyperions, but also Unicorns, Nimbus, and other smaller English labels. I have lots of these also and have had no real trouble with them either. Soo... |
CDs in my collection, that I've had since the 80s, still play and sound very well, but they have always been stored and handled with great care. I have had several CDRs go bad over the years, even though getting the same care and handling. I have LPs from the 60s, 70s and 80s that still sound great. I too believe the industry is pushing to move us away from CDs and into streaming and downloads. I'm afraid that, like analogue LPs, CDs will become harder to find and and more expensive to buy. Being a hands on person and not having much interest in the download craze, I'm hoping that CDs, as well as the analogue comeback, will hang on for some time yet. Jim |
There is such a thing as CD rot but it's not a widespread problem. A friend bought a bunch of CDs from the Koch label(I believe) that went bad. The company ended up replacing his for free as well as thousands of others. DVDs are actually worse because of the poorer dye that is used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_bronzing |
I had a number of CDs effected by this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_bronzing Most had been replaced for free, unfortunately if the label is no longer in business out of luck. I had about 5 discs that had this issue that I was unable to get replaced. |
I had to throw out quite a few Pearl and Nuova Era cds back in the day. With Pearl it wasn't so bad as the joke was Phillips No Noise process sold the noise to Pearl. They seemed to make a concerted effort to find the noisiest most worn 78s to transfer. But yes the overwhelming majority of cds from that era are just fine. |
I have cd,s I bought at summer ces (chicago) in June 1983, that still play perfect, and sound good, (from mofi). The discs have lived in normal humidity and heat entire almost 34 years, no problems. No sure what the axe was that the original poster had. Take care of your stuff and it will last! Perfect sound |
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"Now the music industry wants us all to support download music and music servers and abandon the CD as a medium. Is that in our best interest, or theirs?" (My quote) 1. Nobody’s putting a gun to your head and making you switch formats. (sfall's response) Who said anything about someone putting a gun to my head?? |
Hard drives fail fast (in comparison) and the new solid state drives are no better and some worse than the spinning platter. Backup drives, that are not in use (unpowered), almost never fail. I keep two backups (drives are cheap), in addition to main music drive, just in case of something bad happening during updates (second backup in different location in case of fire, theft, etc). The chance of failure of two unpowered drives in storage is pretty much zero. As for the SSD - the main problem is limited number of writes to each sector - completely unimportant in this application. Again - unpowered drives don’t likely fail. |
sfallRead carefully again sfall, I didn’t say they buy cheap parts. I said they’d save a considerable percentage on manufacturing costs by not have to purchase a quality cd transport at all from suppliers. Just build a dac/streamers with no CD mechs. . Which equals many more dollars profit, as they would cost 1/3 less to manufacture and retail for around the same. So it's in PS Audio best interest to see the demise of DC BTW I do run a business, look at my avatar. Cheers George |
I too read the PS Audio email talking about CD longevity issues... Having a vested interest (like most of us) this is my experience and research. 30+ years ago, while in college I used the new miracle of word processing technology to write my papers, Word Perfect was the greatest then. First saving my files to the standard 3 1/2" floppies (5" had just gone out of favor about 10 years earlier), then moving to ZIP drive, then to MO drive, then to CD rewrites, then to HD, then to servers - why so many??? Because as the years and decades clicked off, I found that each medium would fail, every last one, not a single one was 100% safe as archival. The US Library of Congress has found the exact same thing. Now having said that, there are several factors that contribute to archival failure - manufacturing, materials, radiation, heat, moisture, storage, handling, and so on... Again, my research has only verified what the Library of Congress has researched, many universities has researched, and my own eyes of personal experience through the decades... So to cut to the chase - CD's and vinyl are definitely the best, hands down by a long shot, archival medium existing today as long as (here is the key) the initial manufacturing and materials were sound and they are handled and stored safely and protected from heat, UV, and moisture. Both mediums, as such, should last for 100+ years. Again the key is proper handling, storage, and protection... Both mediums are fragile, vinyl a bit more than CD. The argument in Paul's article was to copy/burn all your music to digital (not to mention Paul's great new products related to digital...hint hint). Again, to cut to the chase; if you want luxurious convenience to scroll through and enjoy your music collection from the comfort of your armchair then by all means move your collections to digital BUT, be warned!!!! Digital storage is significantly worst than old fashion parchment for archival storage!!!! Google and the other data enterprises replace all their hard drives every 3 to 5 years for a reason and they use enterprise/industrial quality units too not cheapo retail drives. Hard drives fail fast (in comparison) and the new solid state drives are no better and some worse than the spinning platter. Data centers/cloud computing keeps data because that data is constantly recopied somewhere else... but does this continuous recopying of files possibly introduce errors, of course. I have several photo files that have been recopied numerous times and I have noticed pixel errors and even complete file corruptions. Again, I read Paul's article and again I had hopes of the future well up inside me but again after revisiting my sources I still do not see digital even close to gaining my trust of protecting my music or anything else for that matter. |
This was an issue back in the late 1980s/early1990s and dealt primarily with discs manufactured for Hyperion. This was attributed to discs manufactured by a specific CD pressing company, and dealt with a lacquer coating that eventually allowed air to reach the aluminum 'data' layer and cause oxidation. Most of the labels that used this particular manufacturer were classical in nature (e.g., Deutche Gramaphone, Archiv). http://www.classical.net/music/guide/society/krs/excerpt3.php Of my 2,000 cds, I have had only 2 discs become unplayable: both were HYperion label and both showed discoloration suggesting oxidation of the aluminum layer. None of my other discs, including ones dating back to the mid-1980s, all still play with no problem. |
I think this was already touched on, but the durability issue applies mainly to CD-Rs. These use a heat-reactive ink layer which allows a laser to burn the digital signal onto the disc. This ink can fail over time. I have a few CD-Rs I burned in 2001 that skipped enough to warrent a re-burning of them in the last year or two. However, commercial CDs have the digital signal stamped into an aluminum layer that is sealed in plastic. Unless that plastic seal is compromised, it should last many decades, if not indefinitely. Deep scratches and high heat can warp or compromise the plastic layers, or prevent the laser from reading them properly, and are the most common reason commerically stamped CDs fail. So, as common sense would dictate, proper care and storage of your CDs is a must. If you have a server with all of your CDs on it, and backups for that server, you should be fine for the rest of your life. When I have a CD-R go bad, I burn a fresh CD-R from my hard drive. (I use CDs in the car, and I get to every CD once in about three years, so I can flag any failing CD-Rs for replacment.) Currently, I am paying about 22 cents apiece for Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs. |
I have ripped more than 4500 CDs to my NAS. The ripper provides data, such as errors encountered in the ripping process. Not one of the CDs had an error. Some of the CDs date from back at the beginning of CD production. I believe that the concern raised about CDs came from the experience with laser discs, something that predates the CD. Laser disc were subject to deterioration when air managed to get between layers of its sandwich construction causing the metalized reflective layer to oxidize. I have seen this "laser rot" on laser discs. But, CDs are made differently and are not as prone to problems with oxidation. As to the extremely long run, who knows? Will the polycarbonate plastic in CDs begin to cloud or become fragile? I don't have to worry because my CDs are ripped and then put on shelves as backup or for their cover art, booklet information, etc. |
" It’s in PS Audio’s interest not to have quality CD mechanisms in their products, as they are the only whole expensive mechanical parts they have to purchase and integrated into a cd player. If they didn’t have to do this manufacturing cost go down and profits go up. It’s all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$." I take it you never ran a business. Is it possible PS Audio's customers buy their products because they use good parts, not cheap ones? Otherwise, they can just go to Best Buy. As for the extra cost, If its more costly to make a CD player over just a DAC, it will be reflected in their prices, same as any other company. |
It’s in PS Audio’s interest not to have quality CD mechanisms in their products, as they are the only whole expensive mechanical parts they have to purchase and integrated into a cd player. If they didn’t have to do this manufacturing cost go down and profits go up. It’s all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$. Cheers George. |
"Now the music industry wants us all to support download music and music servers and abandon the CD as a medium. Is that in our best interest, or theirs?" 1. Nobody's putting a gun to your head and making you switch formats. 2. Instead of buying download replacements for your CD's, you can just rip the ones you have. |
