The 5 stages of making a bad audio purchase

Being an audiophile you will make mistakes on our purchases, why it’s important to audition for free, Ive been an audiophile for maybe good 25 yrs, I usually makes mistakes, when I get too excited of what Iam hearing, at the end it’s only changed not improvement, I do well on my purchase when I am more patience, waiting for cables and components to settle and completely burn in, that’s what reviewers does, I listen listen listen to my system to really familiarize it.So I will know if indeed worth keeping any gear I Am auditioning, Doug Schroeder once mentioned, the most import part of the system is the audiophile, knowledgeable Audiophile knows what they want, and mostl of them they have good train ears.

Pot meet kettle.  Your post is about the most ridiculous take I could have ever imagined anyone would take on what I posted. Honestly, I could never have imagined it. I will put it down as a desperate need for validation and attention. Keep doing you geoff, no one else will ever want to.

geoffkait18,174 posts11-11-2019 1:31pm

>>>>>I don't think I've seen so many logical fallacies crammed into one post since the last time I read one of your windy screeds. The anger and frustration jumps right out at you. :-)

The 8' door is supported by six industrial hinges and the 6'8" door has four.   Each door has the same structure as the walls:MDF, Acoustiblok vinyl, MDF, 3X12 frame, 2X12 and 4X12 interleaved blocking, 4" 4 chamber carbon filters, 4" insulation, flexseal sprayed at all joints and finished with cherry plywood.  They swing with a smooth, velvety touch of the finger.  I can send you photos of the doors if you like.  
As to my audio system, I've heard a system which trounces mine at a cost of $1.4 million.  Otherwise, I estimate my system trounces 95% of audiophile systems despite their higher pedigree of components.  Music is the thing I cherish, not the audio system.  If my amps break down and can't be repaired (they're custom made), I'd buy a VAC 200IQ to replace it.  If my preamp broke down similarly, I'd probably buy an EAR 912.  Turntables, arms and cartridges are easily replaced today.  I just bought a DAC to replace my EAR Acute.  So, I wouldn't even think about audio equipment on my deathbed, only the music.

But having a super awesome stereo ... I doubt it.

Except when sharing and enlightening a knowledgeable music lover as to just how good reproduced music can be: "Wow... Wow... Awesome!!... Joe Pass is sitting right there!"

Then, and only then, is having a fine HiFi of any more import than having 32GB RAM. The other 6 nines, it’s just something to annoy the missus.

"Without music, life would be a mistake" - Friedrich Nietzsche

I would appreciate that!   I am in the early stages of something much simpler, making my in-laws happy in their downsizing space. I was looking at surplus vault doors, simply for the mass and mechanism. The picture would answer some questions about angling the joining faces so that something that deep does not jam.

fleschler935 posts11-11-2019 1:54pm

I can send you photos of the doors if you like. 

atdavid, My point is how do you know when you’re hearing very good sound? It’s all VERY relative. AND SUBJECTIVE. There is no “absolute sound” so all you can really say is it sounded very good to you. What you think is “very good sound” might well be average sound to me or someone else. There are no STANDARDS for OVERALL SOUND QUALITY. There are only STANDARDS for technical parameters, SNR, channel separation, THD, etc. There is no DEFINITION OF ABSOLUTE SOUND.

There are no STANDARDS for OVERALL SOUND QUALITY.

Said the deaf NASA engineer.

The standard for a HiFi is that one must have the semblance of being there, irrespective of the program material. It must emote.

If I’m impressed, it more than likely SUX!

Mr. Eels
 It must emote.

Ha ha! That’s priceless!

geoffkait,
Dyslexia?  I am trying to give you an out here. Work with me.  You basically said exactly what I said, with a lot more words, then said I didn't say that. Did the word "liked" give you trouble? English is not my first language so I may not always use words properly :-)

atdavid OP255 posts11-11-2019 12:08pm

I haven't heard any "best" system, but I have heard a lot of very good systems. They all had qualities I liked, but where one excelled in one area, others excelled in other areas.

geoffkait18,176 posts11-11-2019 2:20pmatdavid, My point is how do you know when you’re hearing very good sound? It’s all VERY relative. AND SUBJECTIVE. There is no “absolute sound” so all you can really say is it sounded very good to you. What you think is “very good sound” might well be average sound to me or someone else. There are no STANDARDS for OVERALL SOUND QUALITY. There are only STANDARDS for technical parameters, SNR, channel separation, THD, etc. There is no DEFINITION OF ABSOLUTE SOUND.

I was trying to point out that what you said has no meaning. You’re just being argumentative.

Are you sure it is your first language? I expect just about anyone who reads it will understand what I mean with more than enough clarity for it to be useful. As I used the word liked, correctly for my intended purposes, I was clearly stating that I was making a subjective evaluation. By saying I have never heard a "best" system, even putting best into quotation marks, I am also noting that "best" carries a subjective connotation.


Perhaps there is an English word you could help me with, being an English first speaker? Pedantic.

Sprechen sei Deutsche? 🤡 I have heard a best system. Few have. Very few. That’s because I’m the no. 1 audio insider.

My favorite step is the call to authority; "My wife, who is the concertmaster for the Royal Philharmonic and has perfect pitch and hearing that extends beyond 20k, heard a profound difference while pulling into the driveway."

One of the worst sounding systems it’s been my displeasure to hear belonged to the no. 1 oboist for the National Symphony Orchestra. Gorgeous 💰 💰Cello piano black 8’ speakers, all 💰 💰Cello electronics and $20,000 worth of room treatment. There are no guarantees, gentle readers.

fleschler,

That is an impressive list of items that went into your listening room. My bathroom has none of that, as far as I know.

I bought Elvis Presley's Moody Blue (again) and it was advertised as remastering by someone else with Kevin Gray. The best I could find so far.

geoffkait,

"Sprechen sei Deutsche? 🤡"

Assuming it was Deutsch without the last "e", be careful with your requests.

German is my seventh language. 

^^^ None of which he comprehends...

Uh,oh, someone’s butt is still sore. Calm down Mr. Eels.

glupson-I was prepared to spend another $50,000 if the room was 25’ X 20’ X 14’, the site of my extra land adjacent to my family room. However, on 3-17-2017 the City of Los Angeles passed a anti-mansionization law that downsized to 20% buildable area on 20,000’+ lots (25% on lesser size lots) zoned RA. Since 1/4 of L.A. is a zoned RA, that killed construction/additions beyond the reasonable size for large lots. However, they kept in place 50% buildable area for under 7,500’ lots and 45% over on R1 lots, the majority of lots in L.A. So this stupid law allows 4,500’ mansions on 10,000’ lots to still be constructed overshadowing neighbors with modest 1,200’ homes which is very much still happening. So, I used two of my four slightly oversized garages to build an interior of 15.8" X 19’8" X 10’ high listening room with those 16" thick exterior walls..

fleschler,

Four garages, things that dreams are made of.

Interesting story about building laws and big buildings overshadowing small ones. It seems you need Elliot Glass.

On any residential zoned lot, one can construct up to a 10’ X 12’ shed, not larger, without permit, but can build as many as a lot can hold (in my lot, about two dozen on my grassy areas). Stupid laws in California. Gov Newsom and the Democratic supermajority are passing many stupid laws, such as two weeks ago, permission to construct two ADU (additional dwelling units) on any residential lot regardless of HOA and municipal zoning ordinances. No additional parking is required. This is to encourage homeless residences to be developed on private land. Yeah, like someone is going to build ADUs and have homeless move onto their properties, especially in my guard gated neighborhood.

"...like someone is going to build ADUs and have homeless move onto their properties,"

Technically, they will not be homeless anymore, if I understood correctly. Otherwise, it does not seem like a reasonable expectation.

Anyway, it is nice that you have an opportunity to make the room the way you feel is the best.

For any audio gadget or thingamabob the assessments are split right down the middle 50-50. OK, you want examples? Fair enough! The Tice Clock, Nordost Cables, AntiCables, Mpingo disc, LS3/5a speakers, Wilson speakers, AudioQuest Cables, cables with Arrows 🔚 on them, audiophile fuses, things without an accompanying explanation, things WITH an explanation, vibration isolation, any product with the word quantum in the name, The Intelligent Chip, power line conditioners, MAG LEV, contact enhancers, CD treatments, the Green Pen, streaming, Schumann Frequency Generator, crystals, CD degaussers, cones, springs. OMG! What is an audiophile to do? 😩

I am a bit ashamed to answer to this revelatory thread about an obsession I partake with many brothers here...I am ashamed because my system cost is way under 1000 bucks all in all including all headphones... I am a bit envious for sure of some people here because my only dream was to give a good audio system to myself...

But How can you make that happens with a very short limited amount of money?

I begins to think about that after some wrong buying spree, reading the hype for the latest product...(it was very cheap product for sure in the eye of some others)


I can assure you that my system is not the best in the world, but I can assure you than many audio system sound worse or not better that cost around 10,000 bucks...I am only happy now … Why?


Because except for listening to the music I love in a relatively acceptable stereo system, I am proud of my homemade tweaks that makes me able to achieve this goal, suppressing the urge to buy for more illusory satisfaction sometimes...


I speak here for the audiophile with low amount of money.... Buy used, buy also vintage, choose TOTL of yesterday, read about sound quality after that, and you must know that it is funnier to design the room treatment yourself with low cost materials, homemade tweaks will makes you happy... And I can assure you for example that my cheap metal buckets " singing resonators", my last homemade design, can change the imaging of an audio room in an astounding way, in the right angle inclination, at the right spots...That cost me peanuts to makes...This idea comes to me from audiophile company that promise at a very higher cost the same changes I hear now in my room...You can smile or mock me if you want to, the " singing resonators" are on photo in my system display here... I control my audio obsession and my budget with simple knowledge about basic audio...I am not an engineer not even an audio master, a simple mind dedicated to his goal: cheap nirvanic music sound in my dedicated audio room... Total cost:(speakers,dac,amplifier headphones) my audio system+tweaks included, cost around 1000 bucks, stones and crystals excluded :)


For an answer to the Op: In the beginning of my buying spree I lived trough these stages...But after wise buying purchase of a dac, an amp, and speakers that were good at low cost, I decide to read, think, and experiment homemade, and after that there was only increased satisfaction, with no more remorse about any thing that I ever buy, and each months for the last few years were a way along a road that was always an improvement in sound quality, and without buying anything more than a few bucks...Experimenting homemade and listening music is only fun not the disease of my erratic self deceiving mind anymore... Basic Knowledge is key...And I read review about costly products I cant afford but when I listen my system smiling I know there is better than mine but how much better ? Then I smile... There is hope for the "poor audiophile" this is the only motivation for this rant of mine beyond the usual egocentric audiophile pride...

the assessments are split right down the middle 50-50

Simple explanation: Half can hear and half can't.

More likely explanation: Any particular component may have some particular merit in a particular system. However, the remainder of the system may exacerbate or ameliorate its flaws.

People do not have identical hearing. Any sonic claim for any component is mostly hogwash and applies to only a miniscule subset of the population with similar systems.

Unfortunately only a tiny subset of audiophiles frequently attend live acoustic performances in good spaces and therefore base their assessments on their fantasies.

"...and therefore base their assessments on their fantasies."

"The truth of the day"

+100,
Not to mention most of the music they listen to isn't even recorded in a fashion that a single listener would hear.

Smearing others aside, but I often, if not always, find music played at home (any home) way more "exciting-sounding" than the one played live. In some sense, the artificial one sounds "better".

I spent last two weekends checking out two audio shows. Say whatever you want about their hotel room acoustics, it is a world better than my room with no treatment. I managed to hear some piano and some guitar at those shows. Sounded great, but I was suspicious.

Later, I checked how piano and guitar truly sound. Nothing like those expensive systems at the shows. Yes, not the same piano, not the same guitar, but it was too much of a difference. Electronic one was more "real" than real one was. I do not really mind it, but let's not kid ourselves.

Live event and stereo system are sometimes nearer each other, but this is the exception in a very good audio room and with a very good audio grid...My criteria is not how much my audio system reproduce a live event "per se" tough, but more, is my audio system giving me a relatively realistic natural musical timbre for voices or instruments? If I feel yes, I sense more involvement of the heart and mind in the music sound...But now I appreciate live recorded files or cd, more than studio one, it was not the case some years ago...The reason is my audio grid can simulate more the living atmospheric presence of the concert participants....


And my system, remember, is relatively cheap cost, with good components link in the chain tough, the difference comes only from room treatment, and multiple others homemade low cost tweaks....

I spent last two weekends checking out two audio shows.

A fate worse than death. My condolences.

ieales,

Thanks, but I made it. It was interesting. I have not done it in decades. Two hours a day for two afternoons at CAF and one hour total in New York. Not that bad. I would not do it for third weekend in a row.

" One issue I see a lot is that many audiophiles don’t know where the sound of their system lies in the overall curve of sound quality. "

I don't worry about the curve... and I'm not looking for perfection.  That's just a dog chasing his tail. It's all relative to the individual anyway.

Besides... my 95% might be someone elses 50%. I'm looking for Nirvana... and when I find it... I will have reached my destination.

Been there already, and took a couple wrong turns.  Now I'm on my way back to it.  :)

" I listen listen listen to my system to really familiarize it.So I will know if indeed worth keeping any gear I Am auditioning, "

Bingo!!!

" It’s all VERY relative. AND SUBJECTIVE. "

Hmmm...  that sounds familiar... and repetitive...and plagiaristic.

" >>>>I don't think I've seen so many logical fallacies crammed into one post since the last time I read one of your windy screeds. The anger and frustration jumps right out at you. "

Really???

" When I am on my death bed, though, there is one thing I am absolutely certain of. When I look back on life, having an audio system better than 99.9% of the population will not even make it into the top 10 of things I was grateful for. "

Sounds to me like someone who has their head on straight. ;)

" Any particular component may have some particular merit in a particular system. However, the remainder of the systemmay exacerbate or ameliorate its flaws. "

Very True... and it seems I have settled on an analytical pre, neutral amp... and warm-ish peripheral components with open cabling.

Either way... it's working for me and my ears.

" Buy used, buy also vintage, choose TOTL of yesterday, "

To a degree, that is what I have done... with some new in the mix.

Being an audiophile is not boasting about something, but a deep learning active process of experiments and creative hearing for the sake of a musical experience....

Treat your room first.

mwoh419
”>>>>I don’t think I’ve seen so many logical fallacies crammed into one post since the last time I read one of your windy screeds. The anger and frustration jumps right out at you. "

Really???

" When I am on my death bed, though, there is one thing I am absolutely certain of. When I look back on life, having an audio system better than 99.9% of the population will not even make it into the top 10 of things I was grateful for. "

Sounds to me like someone who has their head on straight. ;)

>>>>Apparently you never heard of a strawman argument. 😬 Nobody ever said he wanted a system better than 99.9% of the population or valued audio over everything else. Duh!

My wife heard the Von Schweikert/VAC/Kronos/etc. $1.4 million audio system at a show and said that's the one she wants.  I can't afford it and it is too large for my listening room.  But that's the one she wants which is better than 99.9% of what the audiophile population owns.  No, the Von Schwekert Ultra 9 won't work for us either, it's too large as well.  

Well, Looking on the bright side at a minimum it would be BIGGER than 99.9% of the population. 🤡 Von Schweikert uses that 35K internal wiring UPGRADE from NASA. Gosh, I wonder if that’s the same stuff they used on Challenger. 🤡 note to self: Today is looking up already and I haven’t even had breakfast yet! 🤗 By the way, the Million Dollar Wisdom Audio system at the show in Vegas circa 2002 featuring 18 count em! Jeff Rowland amplifiers was a giant flop. But it was BIGGER than 99.9% of the population. 🤗 Now that I think about it so was the BIG Infinity Reference/Audio Research tube system a flop at the Show in DC circa 1980.

geoffkait  Again, you're talking out of your ....  You haven't heard the system and your dismissing it as garbage.  Dozens of audio critics spent hours listening to that system all over the U.S. and thought it was the most entrancing music reproduction system ever.  Grow up!

fleschler,

"Dozens of audio critics spent hours listening to that system all over the U.S. and thought it was the most entrancing music reproduction system ever."

If what you are talking about is the system that was exhibited at Capital Audio Fest two weekends ago, and it does seem it is by the names you mentioned, it is very subjective.

To me, it was obviously good, even great, but nothing to write home about. Except maybe the price. As far as I am concerned, it was not the most enjoyable system at that show. I am not sure if geoffkait has heard it, but I have.

It does not matter what dozens of (assumingly professional) audio critics say about it. It matters what your wife says about it. To me, it matters what I thought about it.

"Either way.... there’s a 99.9% chance one of us is wrong."

I am rooting for geoffkait. Come on, you can make it to 100. You have done it before.

I saw the photos of the Von Schweikert exhibit on-line.  That room was humongous.  Doesn't look like the other rooms they've shown in or the one I heard.  However, I brought my own LPs and CDs to hear the Ultra 11 set-up which I used throughout the local show of the Ultra 11s.   This included the Urania LP Paul Price Breaking the Sound Barrier on LP, Mercury CD Ramsey Lewis Down to Earth.  Awesome recreation of the studio/recording venue and immensely realistic sound with great pacing.   There was applause after the LP played.  The big Tidal speakers sounded great only on jazz, why is that?  Forget the Magicos, Vivids and Wilsons, the music was not as focused or realistic (and where was the pacing on the Magicos)?   Actually the Volti speakers got the pacing right as well as the realism, not the tonality though.