oh wow. I’m in Spring. Maybe I’ll do that. I heard the 803 diamond series also. I liked them a lot. Very forward sound, but to me at least pleasing. They were a different sound than others I heard but I liked them enough to get on my short list. Good speakers. The 805 would make for incredible surrounds except for the price.
BTW, this is a big upgrade for me. I've been listening to 5.2 in my home theater so this will the first time I get past speakers and subs. Is there much difference in the immersion factor between 5 and 7 speakers? Some say yes, and some say it is not worth it.
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Vitop, I’ve only compared to my 804s B&Ws. No experience with the Persona, The Wilsons and the Legacy Aeris.
I think you will be very satisfied with the DI in HT duty. Just FYI, I am actually in Cypress so if you want to hear them in that environment, let me know. I thought somewhere you mentioned you were in Houston. I have a dedicated HT but not the Atmos configuration. Just a measly 7.1 with B&W DS3 surrounds and a DIY sub.
Thanks for the warm welcome group! Sorry for the record length first post.
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Hello jcarcopo,
Let me know if the new production Elrogs 300b prove to be reliable , obviously this will take time to determine. Ìt is a fabulous sounding tube in my amplifier but unfortunately unreliable. This reportedly has been resolved with the current batch per new ownership.
Charles |
@iamasif: Kenny and others are much more qualified than I am in answering your question/concern.
What is it specifically that is making you consider one over the other? If Eric has designed them properly, I wouldn't expect there to be differences in the sonic signatures, but I could be wrong on this point.
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@bullitt5094:
Great having you over here. Much friendlier and absolutely more open minded than that other "site. " : )
Enjoyed re-reading your experience with the DIs, and especially how the women in you life responded to them.
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Thanks for the post Bullitt. Entertaining for sure. (And just another confirmation that I made the correct decision purchasing my DIs...not that I needed confirmation.) |
Bob:
I am really glad to hear that. My primary use will be HT. I did a lot of listening and the DI's just had the clarity and presence I wanted in my HT. I can't wait to get mine. I also ordered 4 ATMOS ceiling speakers with matched drivers. I really can not wait to hear it.
I have a question. The speakers I really liked that I heard were the Paradigm Persona, The Wilsons and the Legacy Aeris.
Did you hear any of them?
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Bob,
That's quite a story,I'm glad you and your girls are liking the DI's.
The DI's just sound real,natural and at ease even when driven to insane levels which I usually don't listen too.
They truly rival any speaker that I have owned or listened too,I belong to a local audio club,and that would be a lot of different speakers.
Best,
Kenny.
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iamasif,
Will there be a noticeable difference between 4/8 ohm version of DI? which version perform best under what situation? I learned it differs in power required to drive either version, in addition to this will there be a difference how it sounds/sonic quality?
No,really nothing to worry about with the DI's to all of your questions,They will do fine with about any Amp that you want to use and they will respond to better equipment as your system may grow.
There is basically going to be no difference in Sound whether they are 4 or 8 ohm.The 8 ohm version may have slightly lower sensitivity than the 4ohm version,that would be a question to ask Eric.
Tell is what you have in your system and what you are thinking you would use with the DI's.
Best,
Kenny.
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My DI story from when I received them a couple of weeks ago. I posted this in another forum's thread where there were many non-owner nay-sayers. Which expains some edginess in my revuew. That attitude about the product was, in fact, what inspired me to test this product in person. To the nay-sayers, thank you! I love the product and I'm considering an upgrade to the SE version.
Compared to the signal paths described by others in this threat, I am certainly an equipment hacker. But even with my "junk" holding them back. I really enjoy the DIs.
----------------------------
Purchased the DIs under duress. My wife has always loved my 804s
B&Ws and her approval was... "if you buy them, save the boxes. They are likely going back." Then
my 28 year old daughter weighed in with,
"You aren't seriously thinking about replacing those speakers are
you?". Sooooo, I ordered them late Monday with the upgrade package. They
arrived late Friday. They were well packed and the are solid (read as
HEAVY). The finish is very good. They fit nicely next to my screen and
in front of the corner bass traps. Basically black on the black traps so
they disappear in the room. All good.
Skipping to the trial by fire. After a couple of hours of break-in my daughter, visiting for mothers day, and my wife appear in the HT door with hate in
their eyes. (this is where the haters are going to state this is not a
scientific test and these people are unqualified to make an assessment.
Please stop reading now. Thank you!) Set up with both speakers
unequalized in any way, I feed some familiar songs from my music server
through my ifi DAC to my Denon 4520. I then switched to my Thorens/AT440
for a bit. At this point my wife hasn't walked out of the room. A good
sign for the DIs. My daughter states to
my surprise and my wife's horror, "Those are the best sounding speakers
I've ever heard. It sounds like the lead is standing right there and I
can pick out things I haven't heard before". My wife just knew she had
her back covered with my daughter and
here she's been hit by friendly fire. I stayed VERY quiet. So the wifer
is now looking for mud to sling, and she actually finds some. The DIs
are not as bright as the well know bright 804s and she interprets that
as a lack of clarity in the upper end sound of the DIs. We did some A-B
stuff between the sets and it was noticeable that the curves/voices were
quite different. Of course we have the room tuned for the 804s
effectively eliminating their bright tendencies, that I feel is their
only character flaw.
So I did some measuring and EQing with the DI's over the last couple of
days and basically matched the DIs with the B&Ws freq curve. Brought
the wife in on a blind AB test and she picked the DIs. There you go. I
REALLY had my doubts going in. My impression is, the high end was where
she wanted it and it was totally clear. The DIs brought out some
midrange tonal deficits I never knew the 804s had. The DIs just sounded
more natural. And it looks like it may be time to re-analyze the room
acoustics. It really is very dead in there. That I knew. I could be
wrong though. It may be we're just use to the brightness. But really
flat frequency curves don't sound good. That's why we add room curves.
Right? But I have some experimenting to do.
Other interesting facts... to equalize the speakers output I had to add
8db to the B&Ws. And I thought the 804s were efficient. Also, the
B&Ws really needed a sub. The DIs absolutely do not. The low in is
all there. Very tight and very defined. The speaker is very natural
sounding. The imaging is better than the 804s which is significant in my
opinion. I would like to hear it with a tube amp and some good vinyl.
You certainly don't need a lot to push it.
But the other end of the spectrum was even more dramatic. We watched a
couple of movies with these. They are very dynamic. In fact I forgot to
re-incorporate the sub in the system so we watched the first movie with
the DIs handling the LFE too. And didn't notice it. I'm sure it was down
some but it wasn't anything dramatic for sure. If you buy these for
nothing else, use them in your HT. But after integrating the Sub at 80hz, the overall dynamics were almost overwhelming.
Bottom line, they aren't going back. They are superior to my much loved
804s. They won over my two most critical, and in this case, most
negative reviewers. They perform from LP playback to LFE chest beating
modes. I don't care if they are made out of old beer cans and bailing
wire crossovers. They work in my system and are a great value with
uncompromising results. And it's the results that count in my book. If
all you have is $3K for speakers, buy these. And if you think there are
some haters on this thread that are hard to convince, you haven't met my
girls!
Bob
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Chris/Charles : I totally agree on the Emission Labs 300BXLS . It's the best sounding tube up until now that I've tried in my Art Audio Diavolo Copper Ref SET. It's equally outstanding in sound quality in both 300b/8wpc output mode and also in the higher wattage output mode (15w-16w approx) . This possibly affords me some extra headroom at louder volume levels during difficult/complex musical passages without any soft-clipping or transformer saturation, but regardless the DIs play plenty loud at the lower wattage setting anyway.
(Tom Willis at Art Audio put the beefier USA version Jota PSU so I can switch back and forth between low voltage and higher voltage transformer windings with a 4PDT switch that I added and a quick 30sec auto-bias adjustment from 80ma-110ma)
They best my KR300BXLS and KR842VHD tubes and there's no going back to any of the 6 pairs of Chinese 300B tubes for me.
I just got a new pair of Elrod 300B to try out a couple of days ago and I'm breaking them in, but I have to say they are glorious sounding as well. I'll be evaluating them more critically after 100hrs. My only concern is reliability with their issues a year ago, which hopefully have been resolved.
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@milpai Sounds good re your volume control! As you realize, in contrast to many resistive-based controls a TVC will do well at low volume settings. The main concern, and I suspect the only concern, would be running out of range when you may want to listen at particularly low levels, and it sounds like that wouldn't happen with your system even with the very high sensitivity of the DI.
Regarding your other question, no, I'm sufficiently happy with my Daedalus Ulysses that I don't envision trying any other speakers in the foreseeable future. See my post in this thread dated 6-10-2017. But I find it interesting to follow and occasionally contribute to the thread. And of course the comparison Chris (Waltersalas) is performing and reporting on between the DI and the Ulysses is especially interesting, as he uses or has used the same speakers, amplifier, phono stage, and phono cartridge as I do.
Best regards,
-- Al
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@kdude66 @lmswjm Will there be a noticeable difference between 4/8 ohm version of DI? which version perform best under what situation? I learned it differs in power required to drive either version, in addition to this will there be a difference how it sounds/sonic quality? |
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Kenny,
Orange flames.....
hmmmm.
I'll call Eric in the morning. I wonder how long that will add to my lead time? :-)
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Milpai,
I answered your question about the parasound in a previous post,you may have missed it.
Kenny.
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@milpai : No, I do not.
But, if you are happy with the A21, I’d keep it paired with the DIs until you get a good feel for the pairing. My sense is that you will be very happy.
However, there is the chance that the DIs, being as good as they are, will encourage you to upgrade your gear ahead of them....it certainly has been the case for me. :)
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@kdude66, @david_ten,
Thanks for your opinions and suggestions. Do you guys know of anyone driving Tektons with Parasound A21? I am pretty happy with the Parasound and have no intentions to change anything in the system except the loudspeaker.
@almarg,
Thanks for my system specific recommendation. It makes sense on the actual figures you are talking about. The TVC "magic", it seems" lies at the lower volume settings. 5-6 increments below my current setting would be ideal. My TVC has 24 steps and I use either 14-15 depending on the CD.
Do you plan to audition the DI?
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@lancelock : Congratulation on taking the plunge! The Janszens will be an interesting matchup?
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Orange is the new Black. :)
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Vitop,
I feel like an old fuddy duddy having ordered black metallic when everyone else is ordering orange!
Yes me too.You could always put some orange racing stripes on them or maybe some orange and red flames.
I hope you enjoy yours when you get them,
Kenny.
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Lance:
I am actually going to be replacing a set of Final Sound Electrostats in my surround and a set of Apogee Ribbons with mine. Let me know what you think when you get them. I think you will get yours first.
I feel like an old fuddy duddy having ordered black metallic when everyone else is ordering orange! |
Lance,
Good for you and I hope you really like them and you might be pleasantly surprised.
That will be a interesting comparison between the Janzen hybrid ESL's,They are a very nice sounding and unique speaker and David Janzen is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet.
Wow, bronzed orange that should be really stunning and different,that's the cool thing using auto paint you have so many choices.
My wife is very forgiving of my audio passions but with our decor,my black metallics do match best.
Let us know when you get them and keep us informed.
Best,
Kenny.
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I've read enough! I just ordered a pair, also bronzed orange. I will be able to compare them to my Janszen hybrid electrostats in another system. They will replace my current Monitor Audio GX300 Gold which were a bit more expensive a few years ago. |
@lmswjm : Bill M, Congrats. That's a cool color finish choice. You'll have to post some photos on the system page. Looking forward to your feedback and contributions here in this thread.
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Hi Chris,
It seems that once again our ears hear similarly. I use the EML XLS as an output tube in my amplifier. You’re using this tube as a driver tube in your amplifier and we have the same listening impressions of it.
I’m beginning to believe that driver tube selection is as important/influential as the output power tube. You should extract many years of service from this superb tube.
Charles |
Bill M,
For what it may be worth,
If you are interested in the LM 508IA and haven't done so I'd suggest either contacting either Jeff Halpern at Tone Imports (LM USA importer) to find a dealer nearest to you, or Taylor at Goldprint Audio (I believe he is who Chris is referring to in NC) for a direct purchase ; both are very good at communicating and easy to deal with. I'm in a suburb of Memphis and Jeff directed me to Taylor for my LM 518IA.
While a different model than the 508 I will echo Chris's comments regarding rolling in NOS tubes, I did so with the 518 and it took the amp to another level. Also, I likewise don't find the need for a separate preamp with the 518.
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Welcome to this growing and cheerful gathering, Bill M, and congratulations on your order of the Double Impacts. Glad to hear that you are also considering the LM 508ia integrated, which I am enjoying so much that I have not been the least bit tempted to try a preamp with it. I think you'll find it is very good with the stock tubes, but shockingly good once you roll in the tubes to suit your listening preferences.
In my unit, I am using EML XLS 300B tubes, which are not exactly cheap, but are built to last and sound phenomenal in the 508. I replaced the 6SN7 tubes with Sylvania VT-231 military type tubes from the 1940s that I purchased from Brent Jessee, along with an RCA VT-229 to replace the 6SL7 stock tube. Each of these changes resulted in a very noticeable improvement in tone, texture, and layering.
I have yet to roll the 805 tubes, but will probably give the Psvane 805s a whirl later in the summer or early fall. I am so pleased with the sound at the moment, I am in no particular hurry to mess with it.
As for an earlier question pertaining to digital and/or analog, I greatly enjoy both in my system. I would say that I am fairly close to Kenny's breakdown of 70 percent digital to 30 percent analog.
Please keep us posted on your progress in building your system. If you need help finding a 508ia, let me know and I will hook you up with a dealer I found here in North Carolina. He's an incredibly nice fellow.
Chris
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Hi @doctorsubie
Did you get chance to play movies using DI mains and center? What are your opinion/thoughts about DI with matching center channel?
Thanks |
@milpai A concern I would have regarding the use of your high gain (29 db) and very powerful Parasound A21 with the DI is that you might find yourself having to set the volume control on your TVC very close to the bottom of its range, given the very high sensitivity of the DI.
It appears that the TVC provides volume increments of 2 db, and a maximum attenuation of 54 db. **If** the published sensitivity specs for your Quad 21l speakers (88 db/2.83 volts/1 meter/6 ohms) are accurate, with the DI you would probably be using settings that are about 5 increments below the ones you use now. If those specs are optimistic, as is sometimes the case, figure on 6 or 7 increments below the settings you use now.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Thanks for the welcome Kenny, I placed my order on Friday. Eric says I should have them most likely delivered to NY within 2 weeks. I ordered the upgraded version in bronzed orange (less red, more neutral color). I'm just as excited at the prospect of getting my first serious tube amp to complement the DI's.
I'm coming from a NHT Xd system that once consisted of 4 satellites and 4 subs. I've since broken that down and am running it as the ideal 2.2 bedroom system.
Cheers,
Bill M |
Imswjm,
Nice to hear you ordered yourself a pair of DI's I hope you like them.
I do believe the 8ohm version would require a much more complex and expensive crossover and possibly a slightly different internal wiring setup,and added labor cost as well.
Do you know when you will receive them.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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@milpai : I went with the 4ohm version. The 8ohm version was announced just after I received my pair of Double Impacts. Most in this thread have the 4ohm version. The 4ohm version are easy to drive, as some are doing so with LTA MZ2/S.
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Walter,
I've been very interested in the LM-508IA myself, and in the process of tracking one down currently. I read how it had performance advantages over the well regarded LM-518IA in direct comparison.
Have you compared the integrated preamp versus any external preamps?
Since I may likely have the same set-up as you, would you mind sharing which tubes you settled on please?
Thanks,
Bill |
Milpai,
I have the 4 ohm model,I haven't heard of to many 8ohm models being bought.But nonetheless they are a very easy 4 ohm load and you could drive them with about anything.
I haven't heard of anybody using a parasound amp with the DI's,I currently driving mine with a diy first watt push pull sit that uses nos Sony vfets and a valvet soul shine preamp.Great combo for me,I will be getting a Linear tube audio MZ2 this week and like some of the guys I will try it as a Intergrated with It's 1 watt output.
The Di's are like most good speakers they will respond to better equipment.
I'm assuming you don't like the looks of them,I got a gloss black metallic paint finish with no grills and I like them just fine.Ofcourse I have had 2 pairs of zu's in the last 5 years and they have that industrial look also.
I'm after sound quality and not so concerned with the looks and my wife likes them just fine.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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I recently placed my order for the DI's and have spoken with Eric several times. He universally recommended the 4 ohm version. I believe the 8 ohm is more pricey as well.
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Folks who already own DIs, did you go with the 4-ohm version or the 8-ohm version. Good to know that these compete with $12K loudspeakers. But still cannot get over the looks of these loudspeakers. Anyone with Parasound amps driving the DIs?
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Bill,
I'm sure you are 100% right I probably don't need it but I would love to hear one nonetheless,maybe about the same amount that you would like to hear a set of DI's especially with your 2170.
But wait just a minute you are saying it makes Gumbo also where do you put the shrimp into.
I'm sorry I couldn't resist that one.
Enjoy the wonderful music,
Kenny.
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@waltersalas: Chris, your posts have been educational for me. Thanks for the wonderful write-ups on your evaluations of the Ulysses and the Double Impacts. I believe I said that you should hold on the them, no matter what, in response to your first post here in this thread. I still feel that way, as long as that is feasible for you, should you choose to go ahead with the Double Impacts. They are very special speakers.
One comment on the process, especially since you've had the Ulysses as your benchmark system for some time now: I believe, certainly that some of us, develop 'attachment' similar to that of a longer term relationship which makes it difficult to let go of that we know so well and have adjusted to. This is not a statement pro or con towards each speaker. Just that there are powerful forces at play. And I, for one, find these forces add a very special dimension to our hobby.
The very best in your quest.
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Kenny and Charles: It's good to learn more about your backgrounds and where you are now in your audio journeys. Vitop, thanks for your comments on tube and solid state systems and preferences.
One of the problems I'm having is tied to being recently new to New Orleans. When I lived in NY I had many friends who were into live music and quite a few who were musicians in well known orchestras and some in small ensemble groups. All of them were able to provide feedback on the audio systems which was extremely helpful. So I need to get involved with a local audio group or nab some local musicians...no shortage of those around here. :)
For those of you who have tubed systems, my sense is that you have your systems highly tailored to your individual needs. I know some of you that have the DIs have done some social listening together. For those of you that have met, and listened to each other's setups including the Double Impacts...what are some of the things you learned or found different, from your own, etc.? Has it resulted in any 'tweaking' of your own systems, as a result? Same question to those that have primarily solid state systems. Thanks.
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Hi Vitop,
I agree with you in that preferences can cover one end of the spectrum to the other. I hardly consider myself the arbiter of establishing any sort of sound quality standard. I just know what "I" like. It seems that Chris, Mac and I have very similar taste in regards to the qualities of well executed tube amplification (SET in particular).
Bill (Grannyring) is every bit as happy with his digital signal amplifier. At some point along the way hopefully we all fine the sound we want in our respective systems. With so many choices available there’s truly something for all listeners to eventually fulfill their sonic quest.
Chris writing "breath of life " in reference to tube power amplifiers struck a chord with me. I recognize that my audio journey and conclusions may certainly differ from those of yours.
Charles |
Kenny, better not call and just let it go as you are happy with what you have and have no need for this digital mumbo gumbo box of mine. 😀 |
Kenny,
That is correct, it's a double CD of the original broadway cast. I remember when my wife used to love this genre and I was so slow on the uptake. Shame on me. Of all the broadway CD's that I have this may be the best. And that's saying a lot. What a great story beautifully retold in music. Again, it took me several time through to really appreciate what a great work this is. So open a bottle of Vino and enjoy. Sounds so great on the DI's!
Yes, just a gentle retorque is all that is needed. Most of the screws were fine, but a few clearly benefited from a little snug down.
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Corelli,
I probably missed you talking about the Hamilton cd before,
are you referring to the double cd set of the original broadway cast recordings.If so I have never heard this one.
Yes always a good idea to retorque those driver screws on occasion especially on fairly new speakers just be careful because the threads are in the wood,no blindnuts on the backside.
Best,
Kenny.
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Bill,
I'm still in AWE that a old tube guy like yourself has found this really interesting looking one box wonder that you are completely satisfied with.I say good for you and I'm so glad to read your enthusiasm about it.
I've been looking at one myself but I haven't called the contact that you gave me, afraid to because it will cost me money that I don't need to be spending right now.I would have to thin my herd down a little and free up some coin.But I do have it at the top of my list.
Wish there was more info about the 2170,I've searched and searched and come up empty,maybe still too new.
Might make a wonderful pairing with a set of DI's.
Best,
Kenny. |
Gentleman,
Appreciated all the thoughtful posts today. Good food for thought.
I too listen primarily to Redbook and occasionally SACD. I thankfully saved the LP's of my youth. While I enjoy them on occasion, overall I find the sound of well engineered CD's very satisfying and this is what I listen to 99% of the time.
DI tweak--IT'S TIME TO GENTLY TIGHTEN THE DRIVERS. I did that last night and the soundtrack to Hamilton sounded better than ever--killer. Tight, tight and deep bass
Kenny, Let me take you in a totally different direction on CD suggestions. The Hamilton CD I have mentioned more than once sounds absolutely great on the DI's. It really shows off the low end capabilities of the DI's . (This may be a big reason I am enjoying my SS gear so much right now driving the DI's) The sound stage is great. It is a very well engineered CD set. And most of all the performance--WOW! A great musical journey into the story of one of the Founding Fathers. If you can listen to this and not be totally emotionally involved and moved (imagine this on tubes my my valved brethren!!) than I would be at a loss to explain why. It SOUNDED so good it took me a number of times through to really appreciate everything going on here. Best present my daughter ever gave me!
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No, actually you can’t have tube components that sound bad. They all sound good. What you can have, however, is people that are all thumbs, people that can't hear and room acoustics that make everything sound bad. |
Honestly, I think that you can have tube components that sound bad as well as sound good. The very same with solid state components. You can have good and bad.
You can find stuff that finds great with both types. Some people may have a preference for one or another (hence sounds better to them), but I think you can have someone that would like just the opposite. I think once you hit a certain level, you start to split hairs, but that's just my opinion.
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Hello David,
Here’s my background. I grew up in a very music oriented family, I played trumpet beginning at age 10, my mother, both grandmothers and a brother played the piano and another brother played the trombone. There was much live music in our home. My father loved music and the record player seemed to always be playing Duke Ellington recordings.
Live instruments were my reference by default. I grew up in the vinyl records era and stuck with this medium for decades as early digital just didn’t move me. Eventually I discovered digital components that sounded natural and believable. The genre of jazz has always been well recorded for the most part (IMO) on Redbook CD. I just had to aquire the right digital gear.
I don’t miss my previous analog system although it was very satisfying, I’m very content with what I currently have as its natural and engaging which meets my objective.
Charles
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David,
I listen to more digital now than I ever have and I would say the percentage is 70 to 30'percent digital to analog.The records I listen to are some that have never been released on cd or the record has better sound than my particular cd.
But with the better Dac's we have now I find myself spinning a lesser amount of records.
My benchmark to adjust and to critically judge my system is about a dozen different songs that I know very well and they are all digital for the easier use and more solid repeatability.
Best of luck to you,
Kenny.
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