Tannoy Stirlings on the way!

Has anyone on this thread had experience with the Yamamoto Sound Craft DK Series Speaker Stand built specifically for the Tannoy Stirlings?  

I am currently running my Tannoy Sterlings with an Aric Audio Trandsend  PP amplifier with EL34s in triode mode. Running a DAC straight into the amo as it has a volume control. 

I really thought I had posted this update already, but scrolling back through the thread I don't see it. Back in late autumn 2022 I ordered a Schiit Audio Freya S+ (the balanced circuit). Feeding that to the McIntosh SS amp, I began to understand what people mean by "holographic" when it comes to tubes and Tannoys. It's only just a glimpse, I think, but I know what they're talking about. I dig it.

Thanks, guys. So far, so good in the new place. Still figuring out my listening room. I'm in a house, though, so it's certainly quieter.

I'm a pretty even-keeled guy, so not much emotional damage, other than being pissed off at the property manager. The financial damage, though . . . oof.

@trentmemphis 

I hope flooding didn’t cause much emotional and financial damage. Good luck with settling in your place! 

@trentmemphis  So sorry to hear this.  Great you had the stands for the Sterlings. Hope things are working out at the new place. 

Hi, Bob. Unfortunately, I've had rather a busy time of it since I posted that. On Christmas Eve, a burst pipe in the apartment above mine flooded my place. Mine was one of about 50. When I was able to get back into my place after the holidays and get a look at things, the bottom sections of the Sound Anchors had rusted. Since I got into my new place, I've tried a couple of things to clean them up, but it seems there's nothing for it but to take a sander to them and then hope some black paint will more or less match the powdercoat.

The good news is that by keeping them up off the wet carpet, they saved the Stirlings. I guess I got them just in time. That's about the whole of the good news, though. It was a god-awful mess.

@trentmemphis Would love to see those pics if you get around to them soon!

Okay, finally got the Stirlings up on their new, custom Sound Anchors. They arrived a few weeks ago, but the packing was more complicated than I expected (bolted to sheets of 3/4 plywood). I just haven't had any time to do anything with them till now.

They're a perfect fit. Heavy as all heck, though. The estimate before they were built said 45 lbs., each. I call shennanigans. These things are much heavier than the speakers themselves.

Anyway, I've still got some dialing in to do, but they have perfectly accomplished what I wanted from them: I no longer feel like I'm looking over the balcony DOWN into the soundstage. It's up at eye/ear level, and it's wonderful.

I'll post pics when I can. Right now, the listening area is a bit of a wreck, as I'm moving a lot of stuff around in the process of replacing my equipment rack, etc.

We have had very good luck putting Stirling GR's on butcher blocks.  Worth a try!  They're really finicky speakers to get right, but once you do (and add some good subs), they can be really sublime.

That’s great input, thanks!  I have laminate floors in my listening room. 

@bobelton

IME, when I tried GAIA’s footers with carpet spikes on my Canterbury’s they further soften the bass. I had much better outcome with edenSound Bearpaw Sr (M8 thread size). Tighter base and improved soundstage. Reach out to Dan at edenSound, he is very knowledgeable and helpful!

PS: I have carpeted floors. 

Has any one tried IsoAcoustic Gaia III speaker feet on their Tannoy Stirling and felt it was worth it?  The room I have them in right now isn't the best and the bass is quite boomy and so I'm hoping that maybe some Gaias would help to tighten things up a bit. 

Thanks!  It seems a bit weird to look forward to . . . speaker stands?  But I think they're going to make a considerable difference.

Congrats Trent SA makes fantastic products looking forward to seeing those when you have them setup.

So, that whole thing about finding some stands to get these speakers up to more of an on-axis position, I never found anything that would work.  So I'm having Sound Anchor build a set for me.

They'll be 4-posters, 9.5" high.  The platform will be 14.5 x 13.25, which is the dimensions of the built-in base of the Stirlings, plus a half-inch in both dimensions.  They're going to weld a half-inch thick bar across the back to create a 1" high lip.  This will keep them from sliding off if/when I experiment with adding some rake angle in addition to the lift.

The base of the stands will be 18.5" deep, and 16.5" wide.  That adds a bit to the footprint of the speakers, which I was hoping to avoid, but it's not too terribly much.  I have more space in the depth dimension, so it should be manageable.

Build will take about 8 weeks.

@trentmemphis thank you for taking the time to write back and the thoughtful answer.

Hello, there, and welcome!

I'm very happy with that combination, yes.  Being a restless audiophile, I want to try it with tubes, but the Stirlings sing wonderfully with the Mac gear we own.

I listen to 70s/80s rock only rarely, but lots of golden era jazz.  The Stirlings are a very good match for that, and I think they'll do just fine with the rock material, too, depending on how big your room is and how much bass you like to have.  If you want tons of thump and your room is medium-large or bigger, you probably want to step up to the Turnberry, or supplement with a sub, which is what I did (although I already had the subs).  The Stirlings produce plentiful bass, and it's good bass, but they aren't going to stove your chest in when John Bonham stomps the kick.

As for the electronics, they're the only ones I've heard the Stirlings with.  Maybe they're capable of much, much more with other gear; I wouldn't know.  But I have been listening to speakers and electronics for a long, long time, so I do have some idea what things should sound like, and I like what I'm getting.

Best wishes with the purchase!

@trentmemphis I am new here but looking at the Stirlings at upscale audio. I also have the McIntosh MC152 amp paired with a C50 pee amp. After your apparent two years with these are you still happy? 

I tend to listen to Jazz old (Miles, Thelonius, Mingus) and new (Jon Batiste and Amy Winehouse) along with 70's and 80's rock; do you think these will work for me?

I'll have to look into those HRS Nimbus spacers.  At the moment I still just have a book stuck under the fronts.

@trentmemphis

The Stirlings are rated 91dB, so it’s an 8dB discrepancy on paper! I do appreciate that the Tannoy sensitivity specs indeed seem legit. I've noticed and enjoyed the greater efficiency when moving up in the line (91 to 93 to 96).

I tilt my Canterbury up a bit, and use a good amount of toe-in. It works for me, and sounds great. The image height is perfect. Stands tall enough to do the same job would mess with the aesthetic, and possibly introduce more resonance issues if they’re not extremely well made (heavy!).

I use HRS Nimbus spacers - basically solid aluminum hockey pucks with a small lip on top & bottom to accept the couplers - of differing height to create the tilt. The stock Canterbury GR spike feet & cups fit right in there.

I don’t see how a coaxial driver with symmetric dispersion and phase coherence (at the crossover point) is going to care at all whether tilted up or down or straight ahead. The bass response may be affected with tilt vs. stands, as it changes the bass driver’s coupling and proximity to the floor, but I don’t see why stands would necessarily be an improvement here either. I love the bass I get now.

Random thought: maybe those who love the stands have inadequate isolation for their components, and benefit from the decoupling effect of pedestal stands?

I have a friend who owns the Heresy's. I agree with your assessment. Their impedance curve is benign however. That is why many(myself included) prefer them driven with tubes.

I also have heard other Klipsch speakers and found that their sensitivity ratings were truly overstated. That said they can be driven to play loud. Too much so for me.

So, I picked up a pair of scratch-and-dent Klipsch Heresy's.  I've got them next to the Tannoys.  They've been running a few days, now, and three things are already apparent:

1. Klipsch rates the Heresy's at 99 dB efficient, and Tannoy rates the Stirlings at, I think, 92. There is not 7 dB of difference in these speakers.
2. The Tannoys eat the diminutive Klipsches in bass depth and quality.  They should beat them at depth, being a much larger cabinet.  But the Klipsches are also just much, much boomier and uncontrolled.
3. The Klipsch soundstage is not as good, but it does do a wonderful job of throwing the singer or lead instrument right out in front of the speakers.

Toe-in is a necessity because these are horn guided  tweeters, they quickly lose intensity as you go off axis in the horizontal direction

Interesting.  Always go with what your ears are telling you.  They're the only measuring device that counts. 

Mine didn't start out tilted.  They started flat and pointed straight ahead.  I arrived at the tilt and toe-in over some weeks of listening and making small, gradual adjustments.  I can't say I've noticed any loss in coherence with them tilted, and I really don't have a space that makes bulky or heavy stands very convenient.  I have to temporarily move my Stirlings out of the way semi-frequently. 

Technically I may not be able to explain but I can say whats going on by ears. The dispersion pattern changes. To an extent it is like toeing in-out in the vertical direction. It is meant to fire straight-direct for the most coherent presentation. That thing is lost to when you tilt it. The correct presentation is achieved when speakers are standing straight and toed-in to your ears or a little in front of the ears. I have always found that to be most right sounding after trying all sorts of placements in various rooms.

@pani How would tilt cause time or phase issues on a coaxial driver?

@trentmemphis , please don't tilt the speakers back for elevating the soundstage. The timing and phase goes for a toss. Buy a pair of Sound Anchor speakers platform. They make studio grade stands which goes very well with Tannoys.

I am a Tannoy Turnberry SE owner for the last 11 years :-). There is nothing I haven't tried around them. Every component in my system has changed 3-4 times in the last 11 years. But Tannoy stays 😀

@mulveling Thanks for that but I was more thinking about it in the reverse the Alnico with the tulip waveguide as I've read at least it's superior to the pepperpot. I had a speaker once with an Alnico midrange driver, the Alon Lotus Elite and it sounded fantastic.

@astolfor The Canterburys are too large for my space, and too heavy to be practical for a man with a bad back.  I'm not even actually considering upgrading to the Kensingtons right now.  I was only having a bit of fun about them.  I just dropped significant cash on upgrading other parts of my system.

@astolfor

Agree, the Kensington and Canterbury models are both wonderful, yet I’m very happy with my upgrade to Canterbury :) And yeah, the Definition 10A was a real head-scratcher, sadly.

@jond

Sorry - I just remembered there was some discussion (audiokarma?) out there concerning Tannoy’s change over from alnico to ceramic/ferrite magnets, and I believe there actually were some Tannoy driver versions which married ferrite magnets to a pepperpot, which contradicts my prior response. I’ll try to look up what model that might have been (it was after the HPD). Looking again at the pepperpot cross section, it would probably be OK to use a short ferrite magnet with a long pole piece to make up for that...going the other way though - the tulip waveguide might not have enough room to work with the weaker & larger alnico magnets needed? Either way, the ferrite + pepperpot configuration is not made today. I'd also love to know whether that's due more to market demands (people in the market for classic Tannoy sound more often demand alnico) or due to Tannoy's opinion on the sound quality. 

@trentmemphis I have the Kensingtons and and Canterbury, if you plan to upgrade to the Kensingtons, and you have the space and $ got with the Canterbury, they are all that much better. I like both of them a lot.

But at that price, you should look at Avantgrade, they are horn speakers but sound "+/- like" the Tannoy but much more open and dynamic without losing the coherency and sweetness of the Tannoy.

@mulveling I listen to the Definition when auditioning the Canterbury, and the truth to be told, I did not like them at all, tight, not the tight that goes away with time, very narrow soundstage. I was offered an incredible deal, but I would have not had them at any price. They just got my ears tired with their undertone ringing. 

English is not my language, sorry for bad grammar and use of words.

Only problem is now I want to upgrade to Kensingtons! lol I have some kind of romantic attachment to alnico magnets.

@trentmemphis Sometimes I feel like I could’ve just been happy sticking with the Kensington SEs and a sweet sounding tube amp like 13 years ago lol. They are a wonderful speaker. Then I heard the Definition 10A, with same driver (oops - that one has the real alnico / pepperpot but it's not gold colored) but in modern cabinets with reflex loading that seem like they should be VASTLY superior acoustically, and they didn’t do it for me - bright, lost the charm? Something about those old English vented cabinets, I guess.

That all makes good sense.  Great stuff.

Only problem is now I want to upgrade to Kensingtons! lol  I have some kind of romantic attachment to alnico magnets.

@mulveling Totally fascinating writeup thanks but I have a question, why couldn’t they pair an Alnico magnet with the tulip waveguide? Or is it just tradition or users prefer the pepper pot sound?

I’m not entirely sure of that answer (I’m not an expert just a hobbyist trying to learn about the speakers I love), but my guess is that with ferrite magnets being stronger per mass / volume than alnico, the use of alnico necessitates a much larger & longer magnet to reach the desired flux density in the (very small) voice coil gaps. The pole pieces focus the entire magnet’s strength into the voice coil gaps. Each waveguide has been optimized to work with the lengths of magnet dictated by either type, so mixing them up would NOT produce good results.

Tulip / ferrite driver cross section - note the use of dual magnets (the medium gray rectangles) and the fact that each magnet is very short!

Pepperpot / alnico - one LONG magnet’s entire strength is focused onto both voice coils by the pole piece arrangements:

One more note on replacement driver costs - when I said the alnico drivers cost a LOT more, that is true - but only for the WHOLE driver. The replacement tweeters contain only the diaphragm and voice coil, and are quite affordable to replace (at most a couple hundred bucks each). I've had this done on my prior Kenstingtons. Since this is the most likely part to fail or degrade in a Tannoy driver (and indeed, it's happened to me), this is a good arrangement. The tulip tweeters include the waveguide and the tweeter magnet, and I think they actually cost a little more than the pepperpot tweeters. 

@mulveling Totally fascinating writeup thanks but I have a question, why couldn't they pair an Alnico magnet with the tulip waveguide? Or is it just tradition or users prefer the pepper pot sound?

@mulveling thank you for the detailed information. I learned more about these speakers in your few concise paragraphs than all the videos and articles I’ve read.  Appreciate you taking the time. 

Interesting. Sintering came up in a different context, recently.  I'm thinking about getting a new cartridge.  One of the ones I'm looking at is the E.A.T. Jo No. 5.  The body of that cart is made by laser sintering some kind of powdered organic compound.

Ceramic magnets are often used as a synonym for the kind of ferrite magnets ubiquitous to speakers. From online:

Ceramic (ferrite) magnets are composed of strontium carbonate and iron oxide. ... After the molding process, the magnetic material is then sintered at about 2,000°F. The sintering process is similar to that of kilning ceramic pottery, thus the popular name “ceramic” magnet.

I don’t know whether Tannoy’s barium ferrite magnets qualify as typical of "ceramic" magnets, but it looks like the nomenclature is based on a loose association (by processing) anyways! I assume the sintering process is extremely efficient at fashioning the kind of magnetic ring useful for speakers.

I'll be darned. You sent me back to look at the manual. Sure enough, it says the magnets are barium ferrite.  Dunno if that's the same thing you're calling "ceramic," but it certainly is not alnico.

@trentmemphis

Interesting. I thought all the Prestige GR models used alnico magnets.

Nope, in the last few modern series Tannoys, alnico models are distinguished by the pretty gold/orange colored horn (the strangely named pepperpot), with an empty/open throat until it reaches the back "pepper" holes drilled through to the compression chamber. The tulip waveguides are visually distinguished by their inner concentric circles, and always use ceramic magnets.

The good news for tulip driver owners is that replacement drivers cost a LOT less 😅 FYI I bought spare Canterbury GR drivers to the tune of $7K. The Glenair 10" tulips were like $600.

Interesting.  I thought all the Prestige GR models used alnico magnets.

My 1978 Berkeley's have the 15 inch alnico pepperpot driver but apart from the fact that I remember reading that they crossed over around 1kHz I don't really know that much about them.

So it looks as if the tweeter is covering most of the midrange, or am I missing something else?

Yep the alnico/pepperpot tweeter covers a lot of midrange. And the 15" woofer covers a lot of upper midrange! I think the woofer suffers some degree of "beaming" at that point, but at 15" diameter it's a pretty large "beam", and this transition at 1100 Hz is further aided by the controlled dispersion pattern of the horn tweeter. A pretty amazingly balanced and considered design, for having its origins in the 1940s!

The tweeter has a 2" inverted dome metal diaphragm and 2" voice coil, which is well suited to going down that low AND handling the higher power levels. Where it's less stellar is in hitting 20kHz and beyond. The GR series tweeters seem to be improved at this. The tulip tweeters use a smaller dome and can extend past 20kHz.

@mulveling 

Great write up.

My 1978 Berkeley's have the 15 inch alnico pepperpot driver but apart from the fact that I remember reading that they crossed over around 1kHz I don't really know that much about them.

So it looks as if the tweeter is covering most of the midrange, or am I missing something else?

It’s a certain sound right? I’ve been curious about how the wave guide could take over at like 1000 hz in some models? I like mids with PUNCH but I’ve also heard pure horns sound so beautiful that I would sacrifice that punch. Is that kind of the case with Tannoy?

@bjesien

The Tannoys which crossover at 1100 Hz use the older "pepper-pot" waveguide an alnico magnets rather than the newer "tulip" waveguides (which cross over higher) with ceramic magnets. The pepper-pot’s tweeter diaphragm is a replaceable part strapped onto the back of a compression chamber. The actual horn/waveguide is steel and somewhat substantial. The tulip’s replaceable tweeter includes the waveguide, which is much shorter and lighter (a few inches). Pepper pots come only in Kensington, Canterbury, Westminster, the Definition 10A, and I believe (maybe) a special very limited run of Turnberry (normal Turnberrys are tulip). The old vintage Tannoy drivers - Black, Silver, Gold, HPD - are pepperpots w/ alnico magnets. Tannoy switched to ceramic magnets (like everyone) around the 70s/80s when there was strife in the Congo and Cobalt supply went out. I guess the more compact ceramic magnets opened up more design possibilities which eventually led to the tulip design? Also, ever since the 80s, alnico is EXPENSIVE.

For comparison, a full replacement Glenair 10" tulip driver (woofer and tweeter) cost about $380 whereas a full Kensington 10" pepper-pot driver cost a few thousand. Why the expense? They have a huge alnico magnet basket on the back: the pepperpot and compression driver chamber operate inside this magnetic flux, which they share with the woofer coil (I think the pepperpot itself serves as a pole piece to focus the magnetic flux? magnets are still a mystery to me lol). The tulips use regular (and I believe separate) ceramic magnets (cheap), with these waveguides and magnets being much shorter. I believe the large alnico magnet ALSO dictates the low crossover frequency of these models - the long length from the alnico magnet and pepper-pot horn should match the half wavelength of that 1100 Hz crossover frequency (about 6 inches), so that by simply reversing polarity of the tweeter wires it can be in perfect phase with the woofer at that frequency! This gives these Tannoy drivers "phase coherence" at crossover without ANY added crossover complexity. Very cool.

As for the pepper vs. tulip’s impact on sound? Hard to say for sure across multiple models, as each cabinet design and driver size (not to mention crossover) has quite an impact on a Tannoy’s overall sound. What I’ve noticed is that the pepper designs have a more vibrant, rich, lively sound, especially in the midrange. The tulips are perhaps more technically neutral and even-handed. Certainly some might prefer tulips - but I find the pepper’s sound more exciting, warts and all: they can bite your ears with a couple treble peaks if you’re not careful - or even if your are careful, haha. The Canterbury SE is an example of a pepper driver with a darker overall voicing (the Canterbury GR, Kensington SE and Yorkminster SE are not dark like this), but the vibrance of the pepper pot still shines fully through in any case, so long as you don’t suffocate it with bad gear pairings. The older pepper pots before GR series had trouble extending to 20kHz, so you see these frequently paired with supertweeters - make no mistake, the Tannoy supertweeters have a very noticeable effect on the audible range (one which you may or may not like)!

It's a certain sound right? I've been curious about how the wave guide could take over at like 1000 hz in some models? I like mids with PUNCH but I've also heard pure horns sound so beautiful that I would sacrifice that punch. Is that kind of the case with Tannoy?  

Ick.  Sorry to hear about the COVID.  Glad you're back on your feet.

That's a shame they sold your Tannoys already.  I guess I missed that you had traded them in.  I thought you were doing a side-by-side comparison with the monitors and were going to return them if they didn't work out.  What do you figure you're shopping for?  Another set of Tannoys, or something else?  They do make those little monitors.  I don't know much about them, other than that they do have the same design as the rest of the Prestige line.  No idea what kind of bass they produce.  Them and a compact sub might be more agreeable to the missus, though.

TM- After 3 weeks of covid I finally finished my evaluation.

The bookshelves were excellent on the top end with a 

beryllium tweeter. the 7" mid woofers produced an accurate

fast bass.

But in the end the Midrange of the Tannoys was missing.

I returned them today. Sadly someone bought my Tannoys

two days on the market.

I am back to shopping again!

Thanks, @mulveling !

I thought about ordering a pair of mono SETs, which gives you 6wpc instead of 2.3, but in the end decided I’d prefer something with a bit more juice. I knew some of you guys said you ran into problems with lower wattage amps, and also I wanted to reasonably be able to try tubes with some of my other, less sensitive speakers. I watch the meters on my Mac amp sometimes, and it rarely bounces up to 15 watts, much less beyond that, so I think I’ll be covered with 20 when driving the Tannoys, at least.

As for the tubes themselves, that’s something I’ll be starting from zero knowledge on. I had a BAT preamp 25 or so years ago, but never futzed with the tubes before selling it. Then I picked up a 2nd-hand Jolida phono stage a few years after that, but it stopped working before I really had time to try tube rolling.

I did a little poking around on the internet last night, just trying to get a feel for what tubes are available of the types used in the Torii. Found some in the 4 output tube families you mentioned. Only one 7027 and no 807s, though. On the input side, I found some 6922s, but almost nothing from the 6DJ8 or 7DJ8 families. Seems like the AX7s and AU7s are used a lot more commonly. Could be I’m just not looking at the right sites.

How’s the bookshelf evaluation going, @chorus ?