This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
"I suddenly felt privy to the musical experience to a degree beyond any I'd experienced before. I became an intimate part of the soundstage---no longer an observer, but a participant in the experience! Minute performance details became unambiguous, lessening the interpretive burden. A result of this was that I became a more relaxed listener."
These were fun times. I hope the on lookers don't buy into the trolling happening by Kosst, Tom and others. The hobby is so much better than this. Most of us spend our days smiling. What's there to be negative about when there's so much music to be explored and enjoyed.
I don't want to flood the pages with coverage about me and RoomTune and the setups I did for the reviewers, more than to say, it was a ton of fun and I'm glad I had the chance to hang out with so many cool listeners. I believe in HEA the reviews, comments and mentions would be around 1989-1998 if you want to look them up or get copies. As far as these guys who are so angry, it's hard to understand why.
It is September. There should be no mention of Asperger’s syndrome. This is the month for Erdheim-Chester. Raise the awareness, tell your friends, family, coworkers. You never know, you may be the next.
Sincerely,
Committee on prevention of Asperger’s syndrome abuse on audio forums
Mike much of what has been written on these recent pages pertains to the origins of sound so you you may want to study on some of the basic themes mentioned.
After some time lapse and study then maybe you can answer for us how your products may work and how they make differing sounds, but_ knot making the same sound every hour or on any consecutive day. You will be able to explain how this works ? Tom
Well Tom we have steaks on the grill, should I be cutting with or against the grain.
Let us know when you get up to, oh lets see, 40 or more threads just about wood and then we can chat. I say this because there are probably a few thousand guys who may one day read this that actually are using wood saying "this Tom guy is certainly talking a lot without walking".
Nice to have TuneLand where the practical application is put into practice every minute of every day.
And while we are not speaking of wood I will bring up the term grain oriented or grain matched. All woods will have their own shear velocity a couple of factors being the mass another being their grain structure. The non alignment of grain against the grain and higher mass of another wood will result in more interference as well as acting as an acoustic brake on any signal transfer. Example may be butcher block or the absolute worse wood/would be sawdust infused with gluuee. Tom
mapman Of course the fact is there is but one damage control officer for wire directionality in these parts based on pure number of posts rambling on about it over and over.
Guess who?
>>>>This isn’t meant to start a fight but my repeating it over and over again doesn’t seem to help make it penetrate the thick membrane that protects your brain 🧠 from new and confusing information. You don’t even know what wire directionality is, do you, sweet pea? 😳
"Left field tweaks utilizing unproven nonsense supported by gibberish like inserting the term "Quantum" here and there, and selling useless stuff on to the public at a huge profit ($2 fuses for 150 bucks that do nothing but stimulate the imaginations of suckers...magic and unexplained $500 magnetic placemats, etc.), are all part of the greedy snake oil creep cabal that will continue the fraud until the money goes away. Luckily this issue is sort of self-correcting as time in the markets shows the useless nature of this crap, and sends this stuff to the back room of irrelevant junk. This helps the tweaks that actually work to get some traction, and helps remove the stain of hucksterism from the world of ethical engineers and designers."
I may agree a 1% increase of any single material factor for use in audio may not be audible in the signal chain...When you add upon that 1% with 5 or 10 more 1% increases they all add into one greater benefit. I am always looking for that 1%. Tom
Of course the fact is there is but one damage control officer for wire directionality in these parts based on pure number of posts rambling on about it over and over.
wolf_garcia Left field tweaks utilizing unproven nonsense supported by gibberish like inserting the term "Quantum" here and there, and selling useless stuff on to the public at a huge profit ($2 fuses for 150 bucks that do nothing but stimulate the imaginations of suckers...magic and unexplained $500 magnetic placemats, etc.), are all part of the greedy snake oil creep cabal that will continue the fraud until the money goes away. Luckily this issue is sort of self-correcting as time in the markets shows the useless nature of this crap, and sends this stuff to the back room of irrelevant junk. This helps the tweaks that actually work to get some traction, and helps remove the stain of hucksterism from the world of ethical engineers and designers.
almarg IMO. I don’t envision having any further comments on the subject.
Regards, Al
>>>>That seems highly unlikely. You are the self proclaimed Damage Control Officer for fuse and wire directionality. No sacred laws of science shall be abrogated on your watch, sir!
FWIW, my opinion regarding the explanations of alleged wire directionality that have been proffered by Wireworld and Audioquest in their marketing literature:
When it is not readily possible to determine a quantitative threshold separating what may potentially be audible in some systems from what is unquestionably insignificant there is essentially no limit to the explanations that can be conjured up for a claimed sonic effect.
IMO. I don’t envision having any further comments on the subject.
A reduction in grain structure along with an increase in grain directionality will reduce shear wave interfererence entering the amplified signal path. Some materials have a lower prefered shear velocity than others. Fuses are a part of the path so the purity of the conductor as well as the solder and its melting point and residual leftovers increase resistance and therefore audible change in direction from end to end.Tom
Excellent, excellent....and this just in from Audioquest!
Directionality: It's All About Noise
07.01.16 If you’ve ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps you’ve wondered what this “directionality” thing is all about.
There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable’s directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground.
Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While we’ve always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldn’t completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again.
In one direction, music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: Ahh…Music!
Well there certainly are a lot of flagged posts, not only on this thread but many others on the forum. I wish I could take credit for being the inappropriate post police, but I wouldn’t have time to do what I do.
Saying that, I strongly believe that angry trolls should be banned from audio sites, period.
At last MG! Something I can whole heartedly agree with you on! I wonder if somebody is also going for the "highest number of posts removed" award?
Seems Geof is spot on regarding wire directionality....
“Directionality in Cables
It’s all about grain structure! The microstructure of copper and silver conductors is actually made up of individual grains of the metal. Unavoidable angular patterns in this grain structure can cause cables to perform differently in both directions. Wireworld cables are manufactured utilizing a proprietary Grain Optimization™ process that specifically controls the grain structure of the metal to produce the highest fidelity when the signal flows in the direction of the arrows printed on the cable. Some other brands of audio interconnects are directional because their shields are only connected at one end of the cable. The shields in Wireworld cables are connected at both ends to provide superior isolation from noise.
For peak performance, always install Wireworld cables with the arrows pointing in the direction of the signal flow.”
Left field tweaks utilizing unproven nonsense supported by gibberish like inserting the term "Quantum" here and there, and selling useless stuff on to the public at a huge profit ($2 fuses for 150 bucks that do nothing but stimulate the imaginations of suckers...magic and unexplained $500 magnetic placemats, etc.), are all part of the greedy snake oil creep cabal that will continue the fraud until the money goes away. Luckily this issue is sort of self-correcting as time in the markets shows the useless nature of this crap, and sends this stuff to the back room of irrelevant junk. This helps the tweaks that actually work to get some traction, and helps remove the stain of hucksterism from the world of ethical engineers and designers.
Where do most people draw the line for Snake Oil? Well, way before the Intelligent Chip and the Teleportation Tweak I reckon. And waaay before the photos in the freezer tweak. And probably before the Schumann frequency generator, the Mpingo disc, fancy fuses, wire directionality and that cream you rub on CDs and cables and little holographic foils. I mean, come on! In fact, judging by what I see on these threads, most audiophiles are a little bit suspicious of anything more outrageous than aluminum cones. You might even say they’re superstitious.
Mike as for an improved understanding of any past, present or future application...Explain once again how sound begins ? Your answer will add to your own self esteem and too your credibility.
I don’t know kosst, it seems to me that as most say "the guys who shout snake oil are the guys who have never done" is true.
I don’t know if the mods are going to delete you again or not. I would think that after a while it would be easier to get rid of some of you guys, but that’s their choice of course.
Here’s a quote from the last page "Aren’t you the inventor of Room Tunes? I remember back in the 90’s, almost every Stereophile review mentioned your invention."
kosst, if your saying I haven’t been apart of testing, you might want to talk to the writers during my career before trolling me. If anything I think the magazines would have said there was a "Michael Green" over kill in the 90’s.
It also seems weird to me that your still stuck on a sentence in the OP that has been covered ad nauseam. Shouldn’t you have been able to make your point 36 pages ago?
You can read up about me as much as any designer in HEA, even way before the internet. So, making your comments about me fit in one of 4 camps I would say. Your ignorant, your rather naïve, your inexperienced or your starved for attention and you think this forum is easy pickens. I don’t really care which it is except anyone can look in the archives of HEA and see who I am, and your afraid to use your name when you write here.
I know you want to pick some sort of fight with me, others who don’t know their trade do the same. I know that you don’t understand the OP even though it’s been explained or demonstrated hundreds of times over by now.
"theoretical understanding" kosst says
Now there’s an oxymoron :) . You do realize that Theoretical means "concerned with or involving the theory of a subject or area of study rather than its practical application". Your talking pretty loud there my friend, but there’s little proof of you walking, past making an amp kit. I made my first amp kit when I was what 10. And it never got so hot I had to turn if off every couple of minutes, unless I wanted to fry some scrambled eggs.
try to relax a little, enjoy the hobby. I'm scared of snakes and oil is something I have my mechanic take care of
I appreciate your comment, however while writing this my focus was on the second half of the sentence
"but it is important to on lookers'
The on lookers are who have contacted me privately and who deserve an audio forum of integrity, truthfulness and free of trolls and fakers. The on lookers are also who inspired me to write the OP. The fact is Mitch, no matter how I wrote this thread's OP the trolls were going to come up to do what they do, tearing down the very fiber of this great hobby.
The OP has been sliced and diced to death and I believe brings out the true intent of the ones posting on this thread. That's what the OP was meant to do, and what it has done successfully.
@michaelgreenaudio The OP can be seen at the top of our screens every time we open this thread. Is reposting it a form of "walking" or maybe a subliminal message to help motivate all the talkers-not-walkers? A word to the wise, if you ever start another thread don't begin with,
Well there certainly are a lot of flagged posts, not only on this thread but many others on the forum. I wish I could take credit for being the inappropriate post police, but I wouldn't have time to do what I do.
Saying that, I strongly believe that angry trolls should be banned from audio sites, period. Here is the OP again.
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
I don't think it can be more clear than this. Plus on this thread the trolls have flagged themselves, and that's good news because the mods don't have far to look :)
As for the rest of us, there's the holiday weekend to enjoy! Great music great friends and of course great food.
Jeff or Geoff you always derail a thread trying to be funny and whimsical which you are not. Trying to read a thread with you splattering words taking away from the topic is like slowly walking through glue to get to tbe really important things members contribute. Does anyone else feel this way?
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