geoffkait,
Don't you wish you could do something fairly well? Maybe, for a day I can let you be me.
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
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Hi Glupson "In a sense, it does not give you any free time, but it is still a job. Kind of, working after hours thinking you are having fun while you are actually perfecting what you do for money." I've always been an odd bird when it comes to money. I put fun way before money. Money is a drain on the soul and I don't buy into the American way of capitalism. When people live for money they become a slave to it, many times become selfish and dishonest. I don't live that way, come good or bad. Glupson, there's a big difference between working and doing ones calling. If tuning was work I wouldn't do it. Even putting a negative spin on it by calling it working for money makes me squirm. it's called life my friend and everyone lives it their own way Michael Green |
Michael Green, I understand all that and actually approach it in similar way, but the fact is that once someone gets paid, what they get paid for is really a job. As mundane and not-glorious as it may seem. Some of us live in some kind of fantasy and consider money just a necessary evil of some sort. I am not trying to make it seem like your work is not fun for you, in fact I do think you believe in it and are passionate about it all, but I noticed you mention word "hobby" while being paid for it. That is all. Hobby is usually what people waste time and money on, not where they earn it. It is just how it is. Having said that, billions of people in the world could envy you for being able to mix business and pleasure. Consider yourself really lucky. Even promoting your ideas on forums like this is, in my opinion, welcome. I may disagree with some of them, but they do provide an opportunity to learn about things I would have never thought of myself. I can take them or leave them, but I am richer for knowing they exist. And I even paid nothing. |
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Hi Inna, btw it's nice talking to you. Not sure we've ever conversed before but this is nice. "Michael, what are your preferences in music ? I suspect that you listen to a wide variety of different kinds but still ." Yep, my listening covers a pretty wide range. I'm a genre floater. I get lost in whatever project or tune I'm working on, a chameleon. I've always been in the entertainment business or my family was and I tagged along, when I was very small, so I never went through the particular music type thing. My cousin is Doc Watson, my aunt and uncle had a private jet company for entertainers, so I grew up around musicians and actors. When I was old enough to go on tour I took advantage of it and soaked up many different types of music and cultures. Mick Ronson and Robert Shaw had big influences on me. And I spent time working on guitars at Guitar Works when they would let me. I didn't play so my work was limited to voicing the bodies. Over the years I would get turned on to a lot of stuff because of music camps and different things I did in the business. Don't think I ever really met a music I didn't like. If you visit my facebook you'll see almost a daily account of what I'm listening to, short version. Oh and I was the acoustician for UMI which taught me a lot about the making of instruments too. "And another question is about source components. Do you use Studer, Ampex, something else with master tape dubs, Simon Yorke, Walker, Technics etc. turntable ? I mean your reference not whatever else you might have to listen to for your clients." Wow, that's a question for another book lol. Can you tell I'm trying to shortcut my answers? This kind of goes back to me being in entertainment. I am and always have been an audio sponge. I've probably done almost every job in the biz. I also collected a lot of sources from back to the Victrola days. Lets put it this way, I've own 5 stereo stores, 6 if you count TuneLand. I think I owned them for as much my own collecting fever as well as turning people on. For example while in Atlanta I had 2 stores, ran sound for In-touch TV show, ran tapes for Turner Broadcasting and ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony as well as the Jazz concert series. On top of that I was doing background vocals and Guitar Works. Makes my head spin now lol. When you tape run you usually over time use about everything on the market. 2" for my 16 or 32, 1" for my 8 track, 1/2" 4 track, 1/4" full 2 4 and 8 track, cassette 2 and 4 track. Turntables, I think at the height I had 27 up and running at one time. Files, still just getting started. I cheat by getting feedback from one of my reviewer buddies and a couple clients. Now for the shocker and I hope your sitting down. My reference source is a $29.00 Magnavox, models range, but based on the MDV100. I have 21 of them, and counting. Everything that comes in here gets put up against the Maggie. I don't like to beatup on products but the digital era screwed up bigtime when it comes to CDPs. I can rant about that if your interested. Sources are typically so over built that tuning this small, beautifully designed DVD Player frankly beats the snot out of any other source I use or bring in to tweak for others. If it wasn't so believe me I wouldn't be crazy enough to make that statement, but we have brought in almost everything possible and the results are the same. Michael Green |
Ok, door No. 1 - nothing. They are apparently made from Mpingo (i.e., African blackwood - which is thought to be musical because of the internal structure of the wood) and Gaboon ebony wood. I can find no evidence of any "special sauce" inside of the discs. However, the thought that turning them one way or another can affect the bass and treble is a bit mystifying. Here are some interesting thoughts from one "reviewer", I suspect that all the folks who participated in the original CES demo were "Shun Mooked." This is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon that occurs when you are in a room full of people who believe something WILL make a difference - and it DOES! It's akin to being the only non-committed voter in a room full of party faithful - by the end of the night you will be "a believer." The psychic force of all those committed brains makes you hear exactly what they are hearing. Or not hearing.In fairness, there are other reviewers and folks who think the Mpingo discs are great. |
I see. You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do. That will make them feel good both about themselves and their systems and you as a guide to a great sound. As a side fun, you are curious about how much sound one can extract from junky source. But..this approach would not work with me, and I would not send you a Studer with dubs, along with cables and amp. |
Mitch, if you had a Mpingo disc in front of you you’d see there is obviously something inside. There is a barely perceptible circular cut out on the top side. The directionality of the Mpingo results from the grain of the wood. I would have thought that was obvious. 😛 anyway....Obviously, some people won’t have good results with the Shun Mook disc, just like for anything else you don’t really have to look too hard to find someone who can’t make it work. 😩 Psychacoustic. Lol I used to tune my knock offs by ear. No biggie. The Shun Mook Spatial Kit is more difficult to tune since it has three count em! Mpingo discs mounted on a bracket. If one is unaware of how to tune them they would not work, they’d interfere with each other. It takes skill to find the effective places for the discs. You cannot necessarily follow instructions. Many people, I suspect, are all thumbs. 👍👍👍👍👍 By the way, I was never tempted to open one of the little buggers up to see what was inside but I heard from a very reliable source (RIP) who did. Hint: it’s not nothing. |
Referring to hi-fi as a hobby offends me. Music is sacred (well, some of it ;-), and to call the efforts taken to maximize it’s reproduction a hobby tends to trivialize our greatest art form. Hi-fi is merely a means to an end; it is of importance only in terms of how it allows us better access to music, not in and of itself. Just as the best musicians and singers perform in service to the music, so does the best hi-fi. |
Hi Inna "You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do." Well not really. It would be easier to show you if you and I ever tune together. My reference systems don't have chassis. They sit in tuning devices so that I am able to get directly to the audio signal. I bring in components on a regular basis but to compete with my reference there's a lot of tuning that would need to be done. Let me give an example and then I won't pick on any other products so folks don't get mad. Last year when getting ready for AXPONA we brought in several reference digital front ends to choose the one to take. After a long search we chose B......i, but it didn't even come close to the Maggie Mod, not even close. So we took a Maggie and watched the jaws drop. We have pictures of folks shaking their heads in disbelief. One magazine even described it as a car CDP cause they never saw anything like it. The Get Tuned Show Kids had a lot of fun. Since that show several folks have had me either do up a Maggie for them or I helped them tune the Magnavox they would get. It's only that one design though. The rest of them sound like cheap CDPs like one would expect. Of course the unit must be tuned to sound that way but that's what I do. Michael Green http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t332-tuning-cdp-s http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t146-tuning-the-magnavox-dvd-player |
Mike explain the physics of how sound is made and even make an attempt to explain why all materials sound different. Oh and why someone will need to retune each and every material that has a variable absorption rate or is not in stasis..some as often as once a day? I know that while your out to lunch when you come back it will again be out of tune. Tom |
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That's Ypsilon phono and Phaethon integrated playing. Thales turntable, digital recording. Lansche speakers. Well, that's youtube but you can hear some of that sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8YIow9m2s |
No Tom here's how you do that. Hey Mike I have some ideas that differ from yours (I think) and I'd like to get together and discuss them. Maybe even while we're listening to some music together and kicking back. Tom, I've been nice to you and Robert on this thread and I'm going to be nice right now and tell you, your agenda here is not working unless your agenda has been to sell MGA Cones for me. Are you not aware that your clients are placing orders with me to compare the old Audiopoint design against the new one (MGA Cones). Every time you guys come up here it's like a free ad for Michael Green Audio. Folks who remember Michael Green's Audiopoints are ordering from me again. Many didn't know where I went or heard stories from somewhere in Audiopoint land. Well that only lasts until they put the old Audiopoint up against the MGA MTD (mechanical transfer device). Hey, we love the excitement and getting to make contact with old friends, but I wonder and they have said, is it smart for Starsound to send customers to Michael Green Audio? If your cool with it thanks but Audiogon readers are different from Audiogon posters. I know you think your being effective and by all means keep it up if you want. Michael Green |
I expect you didnt write your own response as it has a style unlike anything else you may have written here. The other truth is the Michael Green Audio Point was designed by AMD and manufactured in Nebraska and not by you..so your on the coat tales..The fact that your device is hollowed makes for a less effective waveguide because its wall thickness will not support all frequencies. As I have now said many times you don't even know how your own products work even those you claim to be of your origin..not..Your agenda here is just a store front..Dialing for dollars..you do as you always have ..when you need some jack you show up with all your smoke. The only thing you mentioned that won't go out of tune in a matter of hours is the Audio Point..which is not of your making or understanding. Tom |
Thanks for asking for further explanation Tom. The MTD comes in several different configurations. The AAB1x1 is the cone I designed as the upgrade to the AudioPoint, it's a solid cone as well but when you go to the site you can see the shape difference. As Tom pointed out and has been explained several times on the forum here, Brent (AMD) was the original designer of the cone Starsound uses and the cone I first distributed as some of you recall Michael Green's Audiopoint. Before the Audiopoint I used German Acoustic Cones. The Audiopoint I felt was a much better transfer cone for my rack designs, The ClampRak and JustaRak. These Audio Racks and the BasicRak all came with bottom cones which I designed with Brent. As I started dealing with custom products such as the cones for Klipsch and other different thread sizes and configurations I started to notice a shift in pitch that the original Audiopoint made that was becoming apparent and fatiguing in certain applications. This is when I started slowing reconfiguring the product line, moving the production to Pennsylvania for the specialty points. In fact some of the review samples of the Audiopoints were from the Pennsylvania location not AMD. In time we decided to move on from the original design and started making the MTD. Part of this decision was so I could monitor the production and refine the product. We got our own CNC and moved forward. From that moment on the MTD took on it's own life. In time I designed the Sonic Bell and MTD round tip. I never returned to the disk used for the Audiopoint to rest in. This was a flawed design from the beginning. Different woods actually became a much better step between the point and surface. I recommend when people use brass cones that they use wood on top and bottom. It's been impressive to watch all the cones and feet develop. I've also seen a lot of creative DIY cones out there. The ones that interest me the most are the brass/wood combos. The MTD Sonic Bell The Sonic Bell is another cool cone that is pretty versatile. Took me forever the get the bell the way I wanted but once I heard it I knew I landed on something special. Tom talks about me not knowing my product, but neither he nor Robert were around when the development of the Audiopoint and MTD were conceived and refined. The cones were designed 8 or so years before Robert was even on the scene. I understand all product makers need to have their feeling of pride, and in HEA their mystical story that only they understand, but these stories mean very little to me except when I am on TuneLand. You explain something here and your going to have 200 folks debating for their amateur hour award. If Tom and Robert were sincere in their approaching me it then could be worth something but I doubt that will ever happen. So be it. In the past 15 years or so I've been moving much more toward the sound of wood and the ability of wood to respond to vibratory response. Tom talks about wood going out of tune, actually brass goes out of pitch much faster than most woods. Brass is also more sensitive to temperature change and humidity change. Wood moves with conditions, metals change pitch. Lets say you have your component off over night or even playing at a lower volume. You come in and turn the volume up. Obviously the cone reacts to the vibration and heat change. It doesn't take much to change the pitch of that cone, whereas wood responds to nature because it is nature. Trees live their whole lives keeping with the timing of nature. hope this explains a little more Michael Green |
Hi Inna I looked at the video, I wouldn’t be interested in that, nor would the Tunees but thanks for sharing. That sound would drive me right up the wall lol. I hope that wasn’t insulting to you or them, it’s just that their approach is 180 degrees from tuning. I get invited to listen to over built products all the time and all of them have that closed in sound. Once you go open sound it’s really hard to go back to that box. Michael Green |
"Brass is also more sensitive to temperature change and humidity change." I get the temperature part, but am surprised by humidity statement. How can brass be more affected by humidity than wood? I can imagine some oxidation taking place and changing properties, although I would expect that to be a relatively slow process. Wood, on the other hand, swells and what not, when exposed to the water/humidity and effects I have seen so far can appear overnight, if not sooner. Is there a secret in wood processing. painting, or something else, that makes wood less susceptible to humidity exposure than brass? As much as I understand the conceptual idea behind it, isn’t this statement contradicting the above statement about wood and brass? "...whereas wood responds to nature because it is nature."Wouldn’t one then expect wood to respond to changes in nature (humidity of environment, in this case) more than brass? I cannot tell birch from oak when I see it in the park, and am not running for an amateur hour award when it comes to audio. I will not get a professional one, either. But I am trying to connect dots and would vote for wood over brass in anything at any time. |
Whilst brass can be effective for audio apps, especially with the right ballistic shape, as fate would have it brass is a *relatively soft* material and as such does not transfer energy out of the system as rapidly as much harder materials, especially tempered and cryod high carbon steel and NASA grade ceramics. I did not create reality. Gee, I must have taken strength of materials and indeterminate structures in school. 😳 |
This is great. Battle of the footers. Today's card includes APs, MTDs, and now DH cones. Where's Mapleshade? Anyone see Herbie?
Myrtlewood anyone? I am still trying to figure what is inside the Mpingo disc..... 1. Nothing - we ruled that out 2. Morphic Message - a possibility but redundent with the writing on the outside 3. The word REDRUM - "Here's Johnny!"....this oft-used cliche is doubtful 4. Tiny crystal - the frontrunner imo....audiophiles love secret crystals and Dr. Kim was a professor in quantum physics....sort of like that Bybee guy that uses "crystal technology" 5. Graphene - I doubt it - this didn't really become popular until after the Mpingo was coined 6. Small rare earth magnet - a possibility, but my money is on the tiny crystal Am I getting closer? |
A piece of mud from the lake near the trees harvested for Mpingo discs. It achieves unity of those two with mystique of well-known healing properties. It focuses the Earth vibrations on the center of the disc from where it spreads shimmying to the music of an ancient tribe that first used the tree for sound. |
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Michael Green, It’s a shame you decided to drag me back into this meaningless thread about walking or talking or whatever (?) based on you being the judge and jury coupled to endless consumer profiling, calling out and insulting listeners posting objections (more on that momentarily), continuations of no cost marketing & advertising ploys, storytelling that cannot be verified and profiteering too! You stated: I've always been an odd bird when it comes to money. I put fun way before money. Money is a drain on the soul and I don't buy into the American way of capitalism. When people live for money they become a slave to it, many times become selfish and dishonest. I don't live that way, come good or bad. Rubbish! Only a fool would believe that statement, especially coming from a principal business owner. Now that’s one LOL moment... Regards to your statements referring to my past along with your lack of remembrance concerning timelines:
I arrived on the Audio scene in 1985 leaving a successful career in professional sound due to injury. I toured as both FOH and Monitor sound engineer, employed by a few famous musicians, worked over a thousand shows, spent time in a few studios and unlike your ongoing stories and entitlements from the past, my background is easily proven as factual. I choose to work with ‘degreed engineers’ of all types and they are listed on our website for your review. What we are doing in sound reproduction is far different than matching and altering frequencies of wood blocks to footer systems. Been there done that a number of years back. We realized the shortcomings of variable tuning techniques. They are quite difficult to document hence we see your frustration in lacking technical explanation as requested multiple times by the readership. The sonic results from tuning techniques are in a continual state of flux - meaning the parts will never sound the same over the course of time. The tuning technique does not provide a standardized point of reference required for developing and expanding a technology. Tuning as you call it will remain forever a technique that bears functionality and will always provide a limited market for retail growth as “sales” appears to be the actual reason you are here. The tuning technique has remained the same since your beginning. The only difference we noticed is the advertising content has changed where you are now choosing various woods that are no longer “hand chosen by the Amish” as previously advertised. By the way how does anyone “voice” a 2” x 6” wall joist? And is it voiced before or after it is mechanically grounded as part of the structural framework? We’ve noticed you are the only one preaching the typical “yours is better than ours” display of words. The same individual who brought you the audio point delivered it to us after someone on your end obviously failed miserably to see the potential development from a smallish brass cone. Our science is titled Live-Vibe Technology™ and is slowly expanding beyond the borders of audio reproduction. A portion is now protected by Patent as we continue to progress in that direction. The Original Audio Points™ have evolved into Sistrum Platforms™ which you never auditioned or we would never be participating in silly talk over which cone sounds better. You are aware that the type of shelf materials and/or racking design the cone is contacting is 100% responsible for the finality in audible performance and not the cone itself - right? Maybe you don’t understand, because the mass of steel and specific geometry designed into each Sistrum Platform commands the frequency (pitch) management of the brass. In your world, the varying wood determines the sound. You should also be made aware that we no longer use the same brass chemistry that you are relating to from back in the day and we both know different brass = different results. Sistrum Platforms evolved into mechanical grounding of AC electrical panels, structural walls, floors and ceilings, newer cable chase networks and let us not forget - the Musical Instrument Industry where Star Sound continues to expand rapidly. Tuning functions because applied tension is required to alter sonic and that is defined as a technique. Your passion in believing that tuning will replace all of High End Audio is of admiration but without a core technology based on mathematics, tuning will always reside in the ‘halls of hobby’. It's not for everyone. After all, according to your many statements; HEA is already dead. Funny how your atypical opinion defies logic… we both are still “living” off a dead industry. Another topic: Hats off to you bdp24. Your post above reflecting on “hobby” is well written with meaning and deserves another read by everyone. Robert Star Sound LISTEN TO LIVE! ℠ |
audiopoint, I think all of us feel animosity between two of you and it is really your own business. By no means do I have an intention to side with either one of you and I have, like many here, been called a troll by a few participants just for asking short and simple questions. That is another topic that you did, I think correctly, mention in your post. However, I have to say that this thread, as meaningless as it may be, has given you and your products as much exposure as it has given to Michael Green’s. In short, it has given you an opportunity for no-cost marketing & advertising ploys and it has worked. Even more than that, it has given you an opportunity to blast "competitor’s" products while explaining why yours are better, along with smearing his character. And all of that under an umbrella of a forum dispute. You are doing it quite well and I enjoy learning about whatever you are doing and have visited your website to check it out. I doubt I am the only one. Of course, I did go to Michael Green’s website, too. So, even if mention of Michael Green as a person may give you hives and even if you consider his products painfully inferior to yours, he deserves some credit for establishing a venue for promotion. His and yours. Not much wrong with that, but just to mention it has not been one-sided. |
It’s no. 4. Here’s the blurb from Shun Mook. Pretty sneaky, eh? Another tip-off is you almost never see a photo of the top of the Mpingo disc, only the bottom with the Chinese characters. Very sneaky. But if you can find a top view in images of Mpingo disc you can clearly see the 1/2” diameter cutout I’m talking about. I just found one on Google images. “The Mpingo Disc is invented by the Shun Mook team. It is made from a combination of Gaboon and Mpingo Ebony, *treated with a proprietary process* that gives the disc a unique property to regulate the resonance of any sonic component and its transmission. Yet this is a very simple item to use. Just place one to three disc on top of your preamp, CD transport, DA converter, turntable etc, and listen for the wonderful change in your Hi fi system. When this disc is excited by any external acoustic energy, it will resonate throughout the entire audible spectrum, thus overriding unwanted harmonic distortions and at the same enriching the musical reproduction.” |
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You know at this "point" I really don’t mind Bobby’s and Tom’s rants, because like the posters are "pointing" out this is great free advertising for Michael Green Audio’s Cones and Michael Green Audio as a whole and Tuning in general. Thank you readers! Also thank you Audiogon for keeping such a close eye on the posts that go over the top. I also am glad I presented this OP the way I did cause all of us can enjoy the OP play out in real time. Elizabeth said "If it’s a BATTLE.. I’ll throw in my footers, and compare them to any...Butyl rubber size 10 chemical bottle stoppers. my response Come right on in!!! I don’t think anyone should be excluded from the fun of "Walking" this hobby. You know how many footer type products are out there now? It’s staggering to think how the market grew after Steve came out with his Tip Toe. I don’t know if you guys remember, but back in the day when I came out with my RoomTune Racks, Cones, Cable Grounds and of course RoomTune there were (still are) a few very innovative companies who knew the future and developed a way to bring these products to the public. The Cable Company is one, Audio Advisor, I think later Music Direct and a few others that were key in making accessories part of the big picture. I had a client here today and after listening a while he said "what do you think about the internet?" We talked about how everything HEA changed after the internet came along, in a positive way. This thread and Audiogon forum is a great example, and I think it will only get better as time goes on. As the listener continues to progress Tuning will become the biggest part of the hobby. The words "Tuning" and "Playing" are the most important action words in all of music. To play with any accuracy you must Tune. Stereophile in one of it’s categories calls the art of acoustics "Room Tuning". They don’t call it Room Dampening or Room Diffusing they call it "Room Tuning". All of these debates and product showdowns and folks trying to flex their theory muscles is interesting but say the words "Tuning" or "Playing" your system and the world of music from a practical sense is now in business. That’s pretty darn cool. So I say again come one come all, Lets Walk! Lets do some Tuning! Michael Green http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/ |
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