"Also, no fuse, no transformer, no interconnects, no speaker cable."
Could a headphone cord be considered an interconnect or, more likely, a speaker cable?
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
thecarpathian, I was quoted on Tuneland for saying people here have been polite enough not to infiltrate Tuneland. They got named "cockroaches" although for cockroaches better word would probably be "infest". I warned Audiogon crowd would have a field day there and it is better that two sites stay divided. Well, the dam has broken and Tuneland is here now, for better or worse. If nothing else, it will increase the traffic at Tuneland which may be a fair trade-off. |
Uh, Robert, we’ve already covered the dodgy subject of why low mass systems have advantages over, you could even say they’re superior to, high mass systems. Your friend and humble scribe laid out all the gory details the other day. Were you on holiday? Here it is again in compressed form. I am not trying to put words in Michael’s mouth, by the way. He almost certainly has his own words. These are my own observations with my own low mass system. Ooops, there’s that word again! Observations. Low Mass System Advantages No big honking 🦆 transformer or one that has been removed and relocated elsewhere. No big capacitors that vibrate and shift the phase. No large chassis that vibrates. No fuse to worry about. Minimizes internal wiring, about 50% of which is soldered in the wrong direction anyway. Plus there is simply LESS things to distort the signal or vibrate. Lightweight components are easier to isolate from vibration. Cost is much lower. You can spend more on tweaks or whatever. 😄 If the low mass system is battery powered (like mine) you get all the advantages of getting off the grid, eliminating ground issues and power cord issues, including RF coming in on the AC line. Also, no fuse, no transformer, no interconnects, no speaker cable. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 🤨 |
To jf47t: Which one of you two are making this stuff up? With the rising number of listeners moving from higher to lower mass systems the original audiopoint that MG introduced in the early 90's worked well with some of the amps of that time, but by the time the mid 90's were here the brass "zing" was becoming obvious as products changed their component materials. News Flash! Material science, manufacturing materials and manufacturer’s financial operating budgets which control materials selections change every day of the year and not every half decade. Your statement bears no merit. To the best of our knowledge this storyboarding cannot be supported or verified by Industry so, do you really expect us to believe this philosophical rhetoric? And... Nice attempt at boxing the Audio Point™ into a small corner - zing! This year we are predicting to succeed a half million units sold, so it is obvious the AP’s continue to work well in a lot of speaker applications, OEM and DIY electronic and chassis modifications including “modern day” electronic equipment packages to boot! Regards to the ‘lower mass systems’ portion of your statement - what exactly are you attempting to convey? Is the lighter mass better than greater mass? Does mass reduction sound better? Is the so called move to lighter mass a result of Industry or public trending? We never knew of this phenomenon taking place and truthfully would never consider it an issue of any importance. When you analyze a well ‘engineered’ mechanically grounded racking system, the equipment chassis weight or materials chemistry makeup being placed on the platform is not a concern. If the device weighs two pounds of plastic or two-thousand pounds of metal alloy - the platform performs as geometry and material science determines function. You can place a speaker, transformer, electric fan motor, industrial machine, CD player, turntable, grand piano, vibes, or any “amplifier from the early 90’s” on top where the product operational efficiency and performance increases remain remarkably consistent. If you look at TuneLand you can see the evolution of components and the need for several different types of mechanical grounding methods and tools.
You will always be making different tools for all types of components and speaker systems because wood is an extremely inefficient material for conducting resonance to ground. Any material of any size or shape will have an audible effect (positive and negative) when positioned between any components or speaker chassis contacting a wood surface or any surface for that matter. We are of the opinion that racking designers who choose wood as a shelf material for mechanical grounding or isolation rack designs attempt to match the resonant frequency of the component and footer system to establish a desired sonic in combination with the audible sound of the wood shelf vibrating. This process becomes rather difficult when the equipment has different types of footer systems. Correct us if we are wrong in this theory but someone has to take a shot at explaining in basic terms how ‘tuning’ works. The variable adjustment or tuning process works towards matching the resonant frequencies of the equipment, footer systems and audible sonic of the wood shelf into one sound by applying tension (compression and expansion) altering the harmonic structure of the whole. Manufacturers who do not use the variable adjusting methodology generally apply a greater mass of wood to dissipate and/or absorb resonance and/or apply damping materials such as rubber, sand, metals, etc to attain their desired product performance. If mechanical grounding is still the determining philosophy on how OP’s racks work then making a host of additional blocks, spheres, cones, springs, etc., will equate to a never ending ‘racking accessories for sales list’. Which ones do or should I purchase to use with what application? The gambit begins... If any component footer outperforms another, the reason is directly related to the rack design or medium on which the footer resides. The difficult part is manufacturing a footer that is well accepted by a majority of listeners, becomes and remains popular for use in multiple applications and stands the test of time. Jf47t, what you describe as a better sounding product may not be the case when considering all the various racking, resonance management techniques and shelving systems available in today's marketplace - zing... As stated earlier, there is never a sonic reference point established using a variable adjusting methodology as everything related to sound reproduction remains in a state of flux.
Everyone here is participating on the "AudioGon Forum". Why not provide direct links to your planned destinations as this will save listeners a lot of time in searching and navigating your site. The down side is you would not have to sell and resell and now more than ever - over sell your website on this forum. Plus it would stop a lot of public confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuneland We are still waiting for an address location where that tunable recording studio is located; remember the one you recently bragged about with the three variable rooms where all the covers are removed from all equipment including the mixers. Robert PS - I spoke with any old touring friend of mine who worked live sound as an FOH Engineer for thirty years prior to retiring from the road. He is an Industry specialist and repairs both sound reinforcement mixers and elaborate recording desks (one of the few in the country that can repair any make, model, etc). He works out of Bauder Audio Systems in the greater Philadelphia, PA area. I told him the story about the covers being removed from the studio mixers and the response that followed cannot be printed here ⌣. I am definitely under the opinion you will not gain too many followers or walkers from that part of the “plug and play” industry. |
| Post removed |
mitch2, Your questions were exactly why I thought Tuneland may not be the best place for most of the people from this thread. It raises too many questions that are better left unasked. Did you also find the part of Tuneland you visited not overly educative in terms of tuning? There is a lot about how great it sounds, but not much about how to do it. Maybe I just did not find it. The point #7 is a little puzzling. Was I so naive to think that everyone here has already thought it was like that? |
@geoffkait In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up.Good point Geoff, I plant my flag firmly in the "disinterested" camp (although somewhat amused....and not retired) Snar-ko-lep-syDon't leave out "walkers"....Snarky Walker Alert.... https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/walking-dead-decaying-zombies.jpgOk, in all seriousness, based on @glupson 's recommendation, I visited Tuneland including the products pages and forum, but not the "members only" section. Unfortunately I came away with more questions than answers;
|
jf47t, Posting the OP yet again! I wonder what you think you possibly gain by reposting the OP like a brainwashed bot who can only Praise The Guru and mindlessly repeat His Words? That MG is apparently looking over your shoulder on all this stuff speaks quite a lot to the type of Followers He is looking for and the level of discourse one will find in His Method. I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, That was MG’s "talk." Yet when asked to "walk" and show his claims would hold up to the scrutiny one would find in "empirical testing labs" and among "science folk," ....MG suddenly evades, evades and then vanishes. It was just talk. |
kosst_amojan Why's there this sideways expectation that folks aren't legit audiophiles unless they indulge in all the snake oil?There is no such expectation. |
kosst_amojan, It is true that it is hard to know if something is snake oil, or not, before hearing it yourself or, at least, from someone you feel you can trust. Different issue is why is it so important to be in a category of "audiophile" or "walker". So far, in over a thousand posts, we have not agreed, or even attempted to clarify, what "talking", "walking", "faking", "audiophile" is for the purpose of this thread. I tried asking a few times with no response so I started considering those few words a "snake oil" of their own kind. Maybe my questions have not been read or considered worth answering, but they are the basis for discussing a topic as vague as the title of this thread. As for the above question about a "talker" having to respond to questions, it is due to an open nature of the forum. It should be acceptable as long as it does not cross the line of polite behavior and insults we too often read here. |
Prof He’s then asked reasonable questions such as: 1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are changes between a tied and untied capacitor? 2. How do you relate those measurements to audibility? 3. How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias? Then the OP runs away from those questions. And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP. Leaving us to question the OP’s actual commitment to empiricism and "walking." >>>>All of which makes no sense because empirical implies either measurement or observation. Duh! So this whole Strawman argument is just another troll. Prof hasn’t done his homework, even his Uber Skeptic’s arguments are flawed. It’s SO obvious. Demands for proof and measurements are the last resort of the dedicated pseudo skeptic. 😡 I tell you I can visualize it all This couldn't be a dream for too real it all seems But it was just my imagination once again runnin' way with me Tell you it was just my imagination runnin' away with me |
glupson jf47t, That was innovative. Thanks. >>>>See, why is it always the talker who feels compelled to respond to every single post? Come on, people! Snarkolepsy is a misunderstood malfunction. If I can be a little snarky myself glupson sounds a bit like a Cub Scout ogling a Playboy magazine. Snar-ko-lep-sy A psychological disfunction in which the person is sleepwalking but still snarky. Often found in trolls and wannabes. |
kosst_amojan Why’s there this sideways expectation that folks aren’t legit audiophiles unless they indulge in all the snake oil? >>>>>Well, in glupson’s case, it’s because he’s told us he isn’t a legit audiophile. He even said last night he’s just an onlooker, that he has nothing to contribute. Duh! 🙄 In the case of some of the others here, I suspect they’re either disinterested, overly skeptical or don’t get good results with what little they do so they give up. Sound familiar, Costco? I’m walking, Through streets that are dead Walking,.. |
| Post removed |
Hi Guys This isn’t meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience? I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I’ve seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why? You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It’s not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don’t we see this happen? I’m not asking for peoples credentials, and I’m not asking to be trolled, I’m simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I’m also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we’ve all heard it been there done it. What I’m asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it? |
prof, do not take it that close to the heart. It is what it is. My curiosity led me to the Tuneland forum, just as a reader as I have nothing to contribute. Not that I contributed much here, either. It is interesting there. It really is. Not so much about music, but overall approach. You got a honorable mention, I think. I was quoted. In a negative context, though. Misunderstood, too. Anyway, just like this thread ended up being a lot about personalities (with Michael Green being cited the most), the thread there is also very much about personalities here. Mostly in a subtly demeaning manner, but it brought couple of thoughts, too. One is the claim, or whatever it could be classified as, that most of the guys here are retired people who have nothing better to do (maybe not the exact quote, but something like that). I wonder if that is a fair assessment of demographics here. I cannot even try to guess which one of you does what. Nothing wrong with being retired, but is it really true that most posters here are retired? Now, don’t go to Tuneland and then lose your cool. It is interesting there, but only if you can control yourself. As an observation, at least two posters there make same spelling mistakes. |
So let's recount for a moment, in case anyone has forgotten: Someone starts a thread talking about empiricism vs theory, criticizing "talking" vs walking. Then at some point he starts making claims - "talking" - about things like capacitors changing sound when untied. He's then asked reasonable questions such as: 1. What measurements can you present to support your claim there are changes between a tied and untied capacitor? 2. How do you relate those measurements to audibility? 3. How did you test this hypothesis while controlling for variables like imagination and bias? Then the OP runs away from those questions. And has an underling take his place in continually avoiding any tough questions, supplying instead constant over-the-top praise of the OP. Leaving us to question the OP's actual commitment to empiricism and "walking." |
Ok, I will stop and I will be honest. I just wanted to see how you will react if someone treats you in a similar, although much more polite, way that you often treat other people. When tide turns, in a sense. Some kind of empirical testing. Maybe it was not fair, but you got annoyed too quickly. Well, remember the feeling. I will not bother you anymore. |
geoffkait, I wonder if you started rethinking before posting. Those more technical posts are still worth reading and thinking about them from time to time. Remainder of communication seems to have improved lately. There have not been cows, grasshoppers, and who would remember what other animals assigned to other members in a while. Not even questions about target customer flow. Thank you for that. |
When folks don’t take me seriously I simply think, there but for the grace of God....no skin off my nose, Troll. You obviously ran out of ammo a long time ago. Why can’t there be more of me? 😳 Sorry I blew your cover. At least it’s nice to know who the people are MG was referring to in his OP. Fakes. 😀 |
theaudiotweak So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded. >>>>>I don’t know what you’re talking about but what I’m talking about is Springs. Specifically mass-on-spring isolation. This is not rpt not some wild unscientific theory or crazy audiophile idea. To argue that isolation is not possible or that Springs are not isolators is rather short-sighted, to say the least, perhaps even a lot more. This is what happens when folks Stove Pipe. They are hyper focused on whatever and neglect to see what is going on in the rest of the world. Stovepiping oft leads to bizarre and fallacious conclusions. |
So called audio isolaters should be called restrictors or retainers. Ligo may succeed in restricting all forms of motion and hence no sound. In audio you need motion for reproduction to be heard. Audio isolaters cannot discern the difference between a wave direction needed and one that should be reduced or grounded. Tom |
Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the whole world. It was the humble spring that allowed scientists to finally be able to observe gravity waves, which are quite camera shy and hard to see, especially given their amplitudes of what, about the diameter of an atomic nucleus? But are springs really mechanical transfer devices? Or are they isolators? They cannot be “grounders.” You are the decider. 🙄 |
Hey, this thread reminds of the days not that long ago with MG et al over on Stereophile forum, where we dooked it out for months on end, right along with May Belt, who it turns out was sitting next to Peter (RIP) at the computer whilst typing. We did the Mash, we did the Monster Mash. It caught on in a flash. Much fun was had by all, including the moderators. 🤡 |
| Post removed |
tomcy6 Geoff, Where do you place the Brilliant Pebbles, Super Intelligent Chip, Codename Turquoise and other products of yours in your new system? >>>>There is no place in the system now for Brillisnt Pebbles. Mostly Brilliant Pebbles is for room acoustics. In the old days the original Intelligent Chip was placed on TOP of the CD Player. Then a CD was played for two seconds to treat the CD. My SUPER Intelligent Chip is designed to be placed inside the player where the reaction to the laser light is more intense. For a portable CD player the chip is attached to the inside top the case. For an ordinary player it’s usually placed on the Mini CD tray just below the CD tray. I do not use the chip myself since they are somewhat labor intensive. The chip is intelligent because it knows when a CD has already been treated. It is not smart enough to know when it’s run out of hits, but I know. 😀 Codename Turquoise covers the top and bottom areas inside the case. I also use Flying Saucers for Windows, Flying Saucers for Unused wall outlets, Blue Meanies for walls, Green Meanie for ceilings, Quantum Temple Bell, Morphic Message Lables (I go through many pages of labels per month). And of course the Clever Little Clock, the more the better. One customer of mine has about twenty now. Many customers have more than one. I use a boatload of other things that are not my products, like Mpingo disc, Graphene TC and DH Cones, but many are not in scope of this question. They fall under the category of Unspeakable. Also cryogenics I still do after all these years. I also just dug out my Liquid Resolution CD treatment I had stashed away. Heh heh tomcy6 Did you phone yourself for the Teleportation Tweak and did it make a dramatic difference if you did? >>>Every time I do the Teleportation Tweak for a customer I also treat my own system as as consequence. The TT is very dramatic but mostly for the customer. There is only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange. 🍊 When a customer gets a new phone he usually calls back for another TT. Or if he has more than one phone. When the TT first started it was for myself only. Then it occurred to be it might work long distance. Then the technique started to evolve. |
"Besides, doesn’t MG use springs?" Yes. Michael is an equal opportunity tuner. With the rising number of listeners moving from higher to lower mass systems the original audiopoint that MG introduced in the early 90's worked well with some of the amps of that time, but by the time the mid 90's were here the brass "zing" was becoming obvious as products changed their component materials. This is when MG changed the configuration of the cone and the way the outer surface was done. Along with this MG designed and or used other MTD's (mechanical transfer devices) to work better with the newer age of components. If you look at TuneLand you can see the evolution of components and the need for several different types of mechanical grounding methods and tools. As the changes in materials being used for listening continued to evolve so did the need for different transfer devices. This meant other materials needed to be used along with brass and of course so did the shapes used. Yesterday MG showed me what happens to the sound as he introduced an Audiopoint MTD Harmonic Spring AAB-R and LTR Block into the system. Pretty remarkable differences. MG is about the variables and took me through 3 recordings and showed me how different they are as well. After we took a break Michael then showed me what happens as a transformer is tuned in relationship to the capacitors in a CDP and Amp. That was a revelation. He explained that only CD Players that use very small and low mass transformers should be used any where near the chips and bigger transformers in CDPs corrupt the signal. MG is giving the system time to settle and after is going to show me what happens when brass is put close to the chips and transformers. |
