Talk but not walk?

I don't know guys, I think it's pretty impressive when a 70 year old out hears a 43 year old.

Tom LOL, hey anyway my coattails can help you brother have at it.

mg

uber

I wasn't even here when most of Kosst's post were deleted, however when some of your members bring to my attention that some guy is saying I should be jailed for murder, I think maybe just maybe I or someone should boot them to the curb.

You wishing to support people like that is totally up to you. And if you wish to take it up with the mods directly that is up to you as well.

I don't keep what I do here or anywhere else secret, that's for little children on 1st grade playgrounds. I think some of you guys get so used to creating BS you start to float in it, thinking it is normal behavior and expecting others to play by the same rules. But I think that type of behavior usually takes place as you and others become forum lifers loosing your objectivity and even identity.

mg

Kosst

I hope you are ok with me taking the time to answer your posts today.

I have a couple of questions for you as well.

Do you know what makes a wire get hot?

Do you know why most codes in the US specify using 12 gauge (solid core) wiring through their houses?

Do you know why 24-20 gauge is the most common gauge for hookup wire?

Do you know why manufacturers choose PVC, Teflon and other materials as jackets on wires?

Have you ever done a heat testing on wires yourself?

To be as clear as I can what makes you think obvious when you have stated you have never been an EE, have you ever studied EE before?

You know saying someone has been selling fire hazards when there has never been even one case of this in over 40 years with anything I have ever been a part of is not only a joke, but makes you look like what you claim to be, an untrained inexperienced hobbyist who hasn’t figured out how to make an amplifier, yet, that runs cool.

At least the Audiogon forum is entertaining if nothing else, when folks come up to show off their knowledge or personal experiences. But when it’s time to put reality to the test there needs to be walking to go with the talking for folks to feel confident enough to engage.

The most important question I have for you Kosst is "are you a pawn or someone who can step up their game of experience past creating fire traps yourself"?

I’ve already done my UL course, why don’t you give it a try? Put a little walking with that talking, it gets boring hitting the Abuse button on the flagging option.

step up bro, be happy to converse with you in the real world

mg

ps I love this thread

kosst

"But.... instead of modifying the power supply to be more indifferent to the characteristics of your own mains power, we’re here talking about running mains power through undersized wire gauges? I can’t possibly be the only one who sees the inverted logic of that reasoning."

I’m glad you made the post you did. It was helpful to see where you are at in the hobby.

If you look at most amp designs today they operate much cooler than what you are describing your amp runs. You should look into this to see if your designing is up to par. If I was running my amp as hot as yours I wouldn’t want to have you using my wire either, or anyone’s wire. Last night I put my hand on every amplifier I have on at my place and I didn’t feel anything that was any more than warm, certainly not how you are describing your amp as a fire hazard. In fact all the amps I use have very low transformer heat output, I could easily keep my hand touching them all night.

Kosst, you started off your post "I’m no electrical engineer, but do I really need to point out the obvious?" That to me is what is fairly obvious, you are no engineer. That’s not me being mean that’s me being obvious.

Have you ever designed an amplifier from scratch kosst? Maybe you could find a designer to work with you until you are able to make a product that is not a fire hazard. At that point you could explore wire sizes and how they actually work.

Michael Green

Hi Cleeds

"It took me a while to understand that when users here bleat "snake oil," they are usually saying, "I don’t understand how this works." When they cry "fraud," they typically mean, "I’m too inexperienced or lazy to figure it out."

Yep, it's obvious (entertaining to a point) to folks reading as well.

mg

Analogluvr you said

" I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth’s claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles."

Actually Elizabeth is correct. Even back in the late 70’s we would wire studios a certain way with certain outlets to benefit the sound ... When you guys call "snake oil" you do understand that you are calling almost every serious recording venture from the 50’s through the 90’s a hoax?

It took me a while to understand that when users here bleat "snake oil," they are usually saying, "I don’t understand how this works." When they cry "fraud," they typically mean, "I’m too inexperienced or lazy to figure it out."

Analogluvr you said

" I questioned the veracity of Elizabeth’s claim that she can hear the difference between different electrical receptacles."

Actually Elizabeth is correct. Even back in the late 70’s we would wire studios a certain way with certain outlets to benefit the sound. It was and is a meticulous science (art really). Knowing what to listen for is key and you are saying "you can’t hear the difference" is what I would be more concerned about, If I were to compare Elizabeth’s account vs yours in this matter.

When you guys call "snake oil" you do understand that you are calling almost every serious recording venture from the 50’s through the 90’s a hoax? I guess you can even call recording of the digital age hoax as well, but in the earlier recording years especially there was all kinds of sonic tweaks going on that were pretty creative.

I can't say everyone out there doing tweaks is legit, but what I can say when I read a lot of guys throwing out their "snake oil" card, they're really throwing out their "get out of jail free" card cause they have never done a true exploration of their audio chain past plug & play.

Michael Green

Kosst says

"Perspective.... I feel like it's been totally lost. Folks who don't even know what kind of resistors their amp has are debating the most nuanced characteristics of a piece of wire or a block of wood. I don't understand that. Which one is really the more meaningful "walk"?"

(that was a good post btw)

My answer is "all of them". When TAS wrote "I witnessed the revolutions first volley" they were talking about my statement "everything affects everything else". It was the beginning of not a new chapter but the next chapter that included every part of The Audio Trilogy.

to the whole gang

If you would, keep in mind I have no part in your debates here. I'm not a part of any camp you guys have drawn the line in the sand over. That's your ballgame and yours alone. My ballgame is "everything affects everything else". That's why you don't see me in those threads that asks what is the most important part of a system. And if I ever was you would read me saying "every part is a part of every other part". Those are the types of questions that get asked in the beginning of our hobby not the more advanced part. The simple truth is, as we walk more we learn there is a lot more walking we can do. We can choose to not go as far as someone else, but we can't "know" until we walk.

Michael Green

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

... it angers me that people are profiting off of this nonsense fraudulent stuff ...

Hi Tomcy6

you said

"Hi Michael, Would you please have a couple of the clients, or walkers, to use your term, that you connected with here post their experiences with you and tuning? Preferably someone who has some history on Audiogon, like being a member for more than one day, or having posted something here before, or having bought or sold something here."

Tomcy6

There actually have been some who have posted, even on this thread, but like myself I don’t picture a lot of Tunees as fitting in here as posters. They’re more than happy to help someone learn about Tuning but I would be surprised to see them get involved in some of the other sidetrack-ish stuff here. I think they feel comfortable contacting me or each other but draw their line at what they call "waste of time posting" here. I would describe Tunees as people who have moved past trying to prove something, and more just having fun doing and learning.

tomcy6

"How much do your services cost? Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? Answers to these questions would be really helpful for anyone considering your services. Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost?"

mg

That’s actually kind of funny because it’s pretty accurate. I’ve been on audio call since I was a teenager and have slept in almost every possible place you can imagine. Before any of this audiophile business venturing I was on tour in music non-stop full time. There have been times in my life where I have had several homes at one time in different parts of the world.

How much do my services cost? Depends on the types of jobs. On TuneLand it’s free because if I do something that is public it ends up being good promo. My consulting pricing ranges from per drawing, per hour, per project or retainer. Most audiophile clients go with retainer or free. You can get the amounts from me directly if you want.

Will you sleep on my couch or do I have to put you up at a nice hotel? As I said earlier I’ve done all of the above, but I personally don’t like to travel anymore. Depending on what part of the world you live in we might have a Tunable Room for you to visit though. And thank God for the internet and modern communication.

How long will it take for me to be able to walk on my own? I have two answers here. If your talking Tuning the MG way there’s a basic step by step program of sorts where you can jump on board at any speed you want. It’s an individual thing. I have some guys who have jumped into tuning like they were born to tune and others who have one foot in the HEA and the other in Tuning. A good analogy would be musical instruments owning, playing and mastering. It all comes down to your own desire to go as far as you want.

What if you take apart my components and I don’t like the results? LOL, another funny question. I actually have had quite a number who have got me involved in that process personally. Those projects end up being lifetime journeys for both me and the listener, most who end up being very good friends or even family. Mostly people explore by doing themselves with me as a guide or another Tunee as a guide. TuneLand really comes in handy with this. The, you don’t like the results, is a question I’ve never been in on more than encouraging or helping someone get to "their" sound. It’s not "MG’s" sound my clients go after. I have a "method of tuning" but it’s more about you becoming the master of your own method.

Could we please get some clear, straight answers about what you are offering here and at least some ballpark figures for the cost? Absolutely most certainly. I have already started a thread here on "the method of tuning" which someday I may be able to get rolling in a meaningful way. But, as you can see on this thread getting to that meaningful way may or may work out with this particular forums personality. It’s much easier to do on a forum like TuneLand where the people are already in the exploring state of mind. Here? That remains to be seen.

thanks for the questions

Michael Green

Thank you folks! Your last few posts make it easier for me to respond.

"the big picture"

The big picture is not about Michael Green, the big picture is about making your system into a tool. What I do is break it down to 3 very basic areas of tuning. Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical (The Audio Trilogy). TuneLand (my home) is made up of a few spaces. One the Website, two The Forum, three The physical space TuneLand, four Facebook and five the Tunees and Their Systems. Any or all of you are welcome to be a part of what we call the "Tune".

Tuning includes all the variables of audio. "Variable" is the key word because everything in audio affects everything else in audio. It's all one big giant musical instrument. How any of you or I describe tuning has value. Once you get past all the personalities, egos and talk we all have one thing in common, us & our systems. What I do or say on Audiogon has one goal, point you to the variables and give you some Tuning options for you to consider. Are they the only Tuning option? LOL Lord I hope not that would get boring and doing the hobby of listening is anything but boring.

On Audiogon, if I stick around, you'll see me come and go, there's no avoiding that. And like I did in partially answering the power cord question, I'm happy to answer any tuning question that I have the time to, either here or on the other medium I use. Please keep in mind though, I don't live here nor am I going to or have time to. I have limited time to devote to some of the sidetracks here and there's nothing I can do about that. I'm learning how to be apart of the conversations outside of the Tune, but sometimes fail miserably being pulled into meaningless and mindless trolling sidetracks that I have no business getting into, but I'm learning as I go. Some here have accused me of being one way or another, that's all good I guess, but I don't see myself as someone who wants to get off track too often, so if I come off rude it's only a matter of me prioritizing. I do apologize if I come off offensive to anyone I talk to here, it's just that I don't have the desire or time to be a true audio forum lifer. As soon as I leave here today for example, I have a stack of Tuning biz to get to.

Thanks for being patient and remember this thread isn't going anywhere and I will get to things I think I can contribute to when I can. But a lot of the other stuff doesn't interest me as much, so you will see me maybe make a couple comments but then I move on.

Michael Green

When I first showed up a couple, maybe few, months ago I started receiving maybe 5 emails a week which quickly grew to over 50. You’ll notice that I left for a while. Now I’m back for 1 or 2 days and then I’ll be gone again.

I should also add that the only way to really figure it all out is to do it and work your way through because there are so many things that can get screwy. Things like new or old powerlines and transformers outside the house. In the air or in the ground. And what position you are in the immediate grid. For example if you are at the end, middle or first in the chain.

Trust me when I come here I debate in my thinking how far I should go into the process because there may be one guy who doesn’t believe the outside transformers make a difference as well as the entire pathway. And then you have the next guy who wants the inner wall studs voiced, that the wire will be running through (I’m doing a house like that right now).

The electrical transformer, panel, line and amp are all really one component. That component is then put inside of a house with electrical wires surrounding the system (fields). The house is one big electrical component, really cool stuff when you think about it. And it explains why the exact same component will sound different in each electrical environment. And that's besides acoustical and mechanical. I love this stuff. To me it’s a great big active physical puzzle that we get to play with.

Michael Green

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

Hi kosst

Thanks for the question. The BEStrip-Type 3 is usually the one chosen for preamps. That's an effective gauge of 17. The BEStrip-Type 4 usually amps is effective gauge 16. If you want to step up to the 20 gauge the Type 3 is effective 15 and Type 4 effective 14 gauge. You work your way up from there.

The BEStrip-Type1 at 20 gauge is for light pulls like small effects units and simple sources like the Maggie player I use.

The rails inside are typical thin copper plates.

The BEStrip-Type 1 was tested on full size amps with no fatigue on the line (sounded great) but I don't recommend amps with this. Right around Type 3 is pretty nice. I also do a Type-5 at 15 effective gauge which sound pretty nice. Monster amps should really go direct to wall (no strip if possible). And I try to have them around 14 and into the wall at 14 gauge Romex, nice sound. Many codes stay at 12 gauge Romex though.

It really comes down to how your doing the house, outlets and what components. The component internal wiring is, as you know, a big deal. So I try to make a plan to keep all things balanced. Metal conduits can really screw with the formulas so you have to stay informed. Some homes for example have conduits as code and others Romex straight is fine. But there is a formula for every system and one can sound great with one set of components and then another set goes in and it's terrible, but it has nothing to do with the components as such, it's a mismatch.

Anyway I hope this clarifies a little.

Michael Green

Hi Inna

I absolutely do not fit in here and honestly am not trying to. When I come to HEA sites there is something that happens that you can't see from these pages, hundreds of emails, PMs and calls. I'm here for the onlookers and those who have been RoomTune and MGA clients in the past wanting to hook up again after years of me being away from the mainstream.

What you see me talking about comes from the members who contact me directly, most of them disappointed in these types of forums even though they would love to be apart. When I first showed up a couple, maybe few, months ago I started receiving maybe 5 emails a week which quickly grew to over 50. You'll notice that I left for a while. Now I'm back for 1 or 2 days and then I'll be gone again.

If I'm going to hang out somewhere on a long term scale it won't be here. It was important for me to spend time on the Stereophile forum (got very weird there) then on this forum and a few others mostly audiophile, music and pro.

Good Tuner? LOL. Inna the people who know I tune don't hang out here. Audiogon and forums like it basically run in cycles. That's not my crowd. I was going to do a thread that I did start here on tuning but after seeing the amount of trolling it would be a waste of my time. I realize that as well do the members who have made contact with me. In other words I don't see folks who post here as people to convert to something that has already been growing on it's own with just a few appearances here from me. Believe it or not the trolling of me has been a great success as far as converting and listeners beginning or continuing to tune. So my friend I might be amateur, but the tide is turning more than you think. I'm good with that.

I learned a big lesson while at Stereophile and that is mingling with those who live on these forums is not my gig, nor should it be my goal. Inna, I tune all day long that's what I do and is what I have always done. Peddling my worth here is nothing more than saying hello to those looking to tune. Of course I don't fit in here, but it's a great place to meet folks who are fed up with the way HEA has turned out. Again not on these pages but those looking from a distance.

I hope that doesn't disappoint, just being honest as I always will be.

Michael Green

Kosst

Can I ask you a question, are you an underwriter? I didn’t think so, because if you were you could have every part you use in your playing around with audio gear tested to see if it has a UL code or rating. It’s not hard to do. The reason why I haven’t responded to your allegations up till now is because I would hope that you would have studied a little more and in time be able to move beyond making uninformed statements.

To start with, I do not sell power cords. I sell power cord kits. No different from you or anyone else walking into Home Depot and purchasing raw parts and taking them home to make something. I believe you said you built an amp once. Did you get that amp UL approved? Of course you didn’t. Any one of the parts inside of your amp could malfunction at any time and start a fire. I don’t see folks here throwing temper tantrums like you do about your tinkering.

Did you know that when anyone makes an electrical tweak to their electronics it voids the underwriting of that product? No, I didn’t think you did. You see Kosst your the perfect example of a talker. Someone who speaks without proper knowledge on a topic. If you look back at my product page you will see that I list 4 types of Bare Essence wire. You will also find that there is a UL on every part. In fact there isn’t a part I use anywhere that has to do with electricity that doesn’t have a UL. Again it’s not that hard to look up a gauge or rating to see what to use with what.

Let me give you another example. Take a simple low grade long extension cord and hook it up to a heavy duty piece of equipment and run it hard. That cord may heat up. Is Kosst camping outside of Walmart protesting? Of course not, no one is there to watch him pump up his chest who would give a rats (A).

Kosst, do a little walking and then come back. All the uberwaltz-s in the world aren’t going to make you look any more knowledgeable. You either know because you have actually studied a topic or you don’t. Trying to say I’m doing something wrong doesn’t really hold much weight, except to those who like you live here to get attention. Some of you folks spend way too much time on these forums and in time they become your only reality. Trust me it shows. You end up showing people you aren’t really in the hobby of advanced listening at all, and you attempt to make the hobby look less important than it is to true music enthusiast. You have lost your way in mediocrity, and instead of congratulating each other when they have done something cool and fun you show your misery and negativity. You know, no matter how much you moan & groan your only appealing to other moaners & groaners. That’s your choice of course to try to make it look like those of us who are actually doing the hobby and enjoying it, and are happy to share it, aren’t for real some how. Your making the hobby fade with every word and you can’t even see it, till it’s gone that is.

Michael Green

Yes, I will most certainly flag your post kosst. I recommend that anyone who sees clear abuse of others, be it me or anyone else should be flagged and removed. If you were on TuneLand you would get a warning to be civil like what is expected of any grown person. If you continued you would be banned, which I have a feeling you have been banned before.

Secondly, if you feel the mods are not doing their job, step up to the plate and start your own forum, and set your own rules. Continuingly pouting about you not being able to spread discord is an odd look for a hobby about enjoying music.

Thirdly, I don’t see the hobby of being an audiophile shrinking at all. What we do see shrinking is your particular part of the hobby. You can go about casting doubt on tweaks all you wish but the reality is listeners are and have been "doing" the hobby and exploring every part great or small in an effort to make their system sound the way they want since the beginning of this great hobby. Why that would make you so angry is the mystery here. Like I have said, you probably respond the way you do because that is the type of person you are. As well others happy about the hobby tend to share the joys of tuning their system in.

As others here have said many times over and continue to invite you to join in, we (the hobby) welcome your positive contributions and those of anyone who has actually done and have something to share based on the doing.

Michael Green