System that sounds so real it is easy to mistaken it is not live

@rauliruegas , at $85K a pair I would hope so,  but from a cost/performance ratio I will take the JC1+ any day. Is Meitner any better than John Curl? I do not know the answer to that question. At this point due to the reputation of the Atma-Sphere MA 2s driving my speakers. I am spending 1/2 that amount on them. We shall see how that works out. The JC 1s will be shifted to subwoofer duty. 

@lewm , The Plitrons will not handle the power I plan on dishing out. I can have a pair of 100:1 Sowters made that will and I should think would do a dandy job of driving the SLs from 100 Hz to 12 kHz.

What do you mean by "power"?  I get that you want to play at high SPLs, but if you are going to use bass and high treble supplementation and probably roll off the response of the SL speakers with very steep slopes, given your penchant for digital crossovers, then why do you anticipate needing the transformer to take lots of power?  Have you evaluated the specifications of the Plitron toroid, so as to form a basis for your belief they cannot be driven hard, or what?  Anyway, I have no compulsion to dissuade you from your aim to use Sowter transformers. (1:100 would be technically more correct than 100:1, BTW.)  Sowter certainly is well regarded, although I did not associate them with making audio step-up transformers to drive ESLs.  Sure, go for it.  My recommendation of Plitron was solely based on the idea of your driving the speaker with two transformers (one for bass and the other full range) and dumping the RC network in the process. However since you are venturing into the unknown, you might want to find a way to experiment with using a single 1:100 step-up before investing in a custom build of two of them.  (Acoustats are not identical to SLs in terms of stator to diaphragm spacing and bias voltage, although using separate bass and treble transformers was originally the idea of Acoustat, borrowed by SL in the late 90s or so.)

@lewm  Plitron is no more. It was bought out by Noratel Canada. They do have a custom transformer department and will design transformers for audio use in larger lots. I doubt they would just build two, but who knows. If I remember correctly the 1:75 Plitron was good for 100 watts. I have much more power than that. Remember, I have already burned up a brilliance control. My old Sowters were good for 300 watts. If I do this the plan will be to use one transformer, straight up to power the SLs from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This would get rid of the RC networks. Correct, all the crossovers will be digital handled by the soon the be released DEQX Pre8 which has the capability to do four 2 way crossovers. I will use a small class A amp to drive the tweeters which I will hang at  ear level on the medial sides of the SLs. ESLs do not do the highest octave well, the diaphragm falls away from pistonic motion and starts vibrating haphazardly. Ribbons are perfect for this but again because of their very low impedance a transformer is required. The Magneplanar 20.7 tweeter would be perfect but they will not sell a pair separately. I would have to have the serial number of a pair to order replacements. 

If memory serves me, you felt in the end that you had burned up your brilliance control because your equalizer was boosting the signal by 10 or 12 db at a frequency that was traveling through the brilliance control. So that was in medical parlance iatrogenic. A problem you can easily get around by ceasing to cause it. anyway, I am sorry to learn of the demise of Plitron. They made good stuff. Sowter is also a very good company, and I am sure they can do a good job as well. To my knowledge they make only EI type transformers. Is that still correct? My other point was that you are taking a shot in the dark as to whether a single transformer with a 1 to 100 step up ratio can adequately drive the panel at frequencies as low as 100 Hz with vigor to satisfying levels. I wonder about this because Although I did not measure the frequencies involved, my memory tells me that when I tried to drive the panel full range with my 1 to 90 transformer the response was unsatisfying at frequencies that went well above 100 Hz, at least up to 200 or 300 Hz or so However, one could argue that because you are taking the onus of driving very low frequencies away from the ESL transformer, perhaps it will perform better at the higher frequencies (above 100Hz)  that will be required. Anyway, you will find out if you do this experiment. I personally would not add a tweeter to Soundlab ESL or any othe high quality ESL, but that’s just me.

Dear @lewm  : With all respect: I think that you posted this:

 

" This is perhaps not the place to discuss it, for fear of boring a few others...."

 

and seems now that you are just insisting with. You can follow doing but which is your target that could help us?

 

R.

@lewm  It was sort of iatrogenic. The processor was doing what it was programmed to do which was make the frequency response of the speaker flat. Because of that speaker's location there was a large dip in the high frequencies that the processor was correcting. I then poured the coal into that situation with very powerful amplifiers. New processors have programmable limits to keep such an event from happening. I corrected the problem by removing the window next to the speaker and replacing that brilliance control with a 500 watt resistor and a very large heat sink. 

Sowter does not make toroids. I used a 1:100 transformer successfully on the Acoustats using the same set up. It was one of their standard ESL transformers at the time. They may help design transformers to suit. I do not know yet. Using a super tweeter next to 8 foot ESLs is sonically risky. I would prefer a 6 foot ribbon out of a Magneplanar which would be less likely to call attention to itself as the radiation characteristics are the same. Above 12 kHz I think the tweeter will likely be less obvious. With the new processor I'll have four independent crossovers and I can experiment with less expensive equipment before I go to town.  I can buy used Maneplanars, get new tweeters with their serial numbers then sell them. Perhaps I can get the local Magneplanar store to wrench a pair out of the company. I'll figure something out. What else is a retired guy going to do?

Raul, You are right. I apologize to you and any others who were offended by my and Mijostyn's going off topic.  It seemed to be permissible because no one else was trying to change the subject, back to the actual subject of the thread.  But, dear sir, please also keep in mind that you do the same from time to time.

Mijo, I will take our conversation private from here on out.

The Classic Audio room running off the Atmasphere Class D amps did a nice job of this today at CAF. Very smooth and natural. A small jazz ensemble recording including piano played in particular sounded very relaxed yet lifelike. 

Dear @mapman  : System that sounds so real it is easy to mistaken it is not live.

 

That's the thread tittle: SYSTEM is the key word and any amp is only one link in a very complex room/system chain.

 

Anyway, you can post whatever you want because you have the rigth to do it.

 

R.

@rauliruegas 

That is true.  Source was a very good vinyl rig. Don’t want to take that for granted. 

Dear @mijostyn : " from a cost/performance ratio I will take the JC1+ any day. Is Meitner any better than John Curl? "

Well, Parasound builded at a specific market price and the build parts they used are good but not good enough. Example: Parasound used Nichicon elctrolytic filter caps instead say Vishay or Cornell Dubelier that are 50%+ higher in price but even with better quality performance levels. For the JC1+ price tag can’t be outperformed, agree with you. Btw, the 130/84 K monoblocks neither use Vishay/Cornell or even Kemet and looks more like Epcos/TDK or maybe Nichicon  ! ? ! ? ?.

 

Meitner or JC ? I think both designers are different more than better one over the other, however and maybe because I own the legendary JC design in my system and already listened the Parasound mated with Sound Labs and big Dynaudio I could incline for JC but with no specific technical foundation.

 

R.

In the DIY community, Nichicon electrolytics are very highly regarded. Not a compromise at all compared to Vishay or CD. I use them and if I thought there was a better brand for a particular application I’d use that brand over Nichicon. The cost differential among different brands of electrolytic caps is trivial, now that Black Gate and Cerafine are defunct.

@rauliruegas, I suppose that makes both of us (without technical foundation). I am moving my JC 1s to subwoofer duty and had a choice between the JC 1+ and the Atma-Sphere MA 2s. Both amps have a reputation for excellent performance on SL speakers. I opted for the MA 2s. They are class A all the way and have a very fast slew rate. Their output impedance is on the high side but I am not using them to make low bass so, that is not important. I also like hand made in America. Atma-Sphere does a beautiful job wiring it's amplifiers.

Their output impedance is on the high side but I am not using them to make low bass so, that is not important.

@mijostyn 

The Sound Lab has its highest impedances in the bass region. That is why solid state amps struggle to drive them- they can't make the power. For the MA-2 though its a walk in the park- they play bass very well on that speaker!

Dear @mijostyn  : I think you builded your subwoofers that are digital controled in its parameters and I whish to know which is its THD at 120db SPL at 16hz-20hz.

 

In my Velodyne's ( sealed design ) its woofers are mated with a self powered amplifier that MEETS all the woffer characteristics along that the woofer is under self " inspection " around 16k times at each second and all those makes that its THD at almost full power been as low as 0.5%.

 

If you have not " something " that be checking in real time the subs THD then the JC 1+ is not the " best " option because that Parasound was not designed for subwoofers as your desing.

 

@atmasphere  the JC 1+ puts around 300 watts at 16 ohms and can handle even higher  impedance with absolute aplomb.

 

R.

the JC 1+ puts around 300 watts at 16 ohms and can handle even higher  impedance with absolute aplomb.

@rauliruegas That amplifier is designed to operate as a voltage source. The Sound Lab has an impedance peak of about 30 Ohms in the bass. That means that if the JC-1 makes 300 Watts into 16 Ohms it will be a little bit more than half that into 30 Ohms. Being a voltage source, it will cut its power by half with each doubling of impedance.

 

@rauliruegas Pardon me for continuing this sidebar.

@mijostyn I assume you will not be placing your new Atmasphere MA-2s under the floor as with the JC1s.  While heat dissipation is important, I'm more thinking you will want to be able to keep an eye on the tubes.  I did have a situation with a tube amp where if I had not been able to see a problem as it occurred the consequences would have been very unpleasant.

As a 25 year user of an Atmasphere OTL, I can tell you that with these amps  a failing tube signals its demise rather gently. But keeping them in open air for ventilation and in plain sight is a good idea.

@atmasphere , I should have phrased that differently. It is the SLs that do not like making bass. The MA 2's should be fine driving the SLs in the bass because the impedance is so high. I am not asking the MA 2's to drive 2 ohm subwoofers.

@rauliruegas , I had Velodyn subs for the better part of a decade. The surrounds corroded and they literally fell apart. I can not quote you figures but I do know that given appropriately large drivers in well constructed sealed enclosures distortion levels are easily under 0.5%. It is only when using smaller drivers in flimsy enclosures that distortion becomes a problem.  An amplifier that has tight control over the driver like the JC 1s with their damping factor over 1000 will result in excellent performance far in excess of what any Class D plate amplifier can provide assuming a large driver in a well constructed enclosure of which there are very few. The Velodyns do not qualify as a well constructed enclosure. No commercial subwoofer excepting the Magico Q series qualifies. If you commission me I will build you a knock out set of subwoofers. 

@jetter , they will be exactly where the JC 1 are. There are two cooling fans for each amp. I will know right away when a tube fails as the power in that channel will drop enough to skewer channel balance. It only takes a dB or two to change balance enough to alert me to a problem. I am not at all worried about it. 

Dear @atmasphere  : I know that very weel and knowing the JC 1+ design I posted about.

 

Look, a really whealty friend of mine was and is in " love " with my quality level speakers so he took around 10 days of his time and fligth to Utha where he was with Wilson and Sound Labs and cost no object for him he decided  to come back México bringing with him the top of the line Sound Labs and the pair of Parasound monobloks that were recomended by the desigbner him self.

 

He did not comment with me nothing about but around 3 weeks with the speaker/amp in his big dedicated room invited me to listen his system ( before the Sound Labs he owned Raidho beautiful DK speakers ) and was a surprise to me to found out the SL down there and till that day we try to improve the SL quality room levels performance ( obviously with subs. ).

Well even all those he told me months latter at my place: " I really like my SL/JC but still prefers your vinatge system ".

 

In the other side he was a tube lover till SL designer gave the advice for the Parasound.

You already know that after owned for 10 years tubes and from some time now I'm allergic to tubes ( any ) for my system no matters what.

 

R.

till that day we try to improve the SL quality room levels performance ( obviously with subs. ).

@rauliruegas If you were running an amp like that, I would expect that you might want to use subs. That is a very common experience people have with ESLs and solid state in general. If you have the right amp those speakers have excellent bass on their own! To be clear I was not making an indictment on the Parasound in any way other than what you seem to be corroborating here. 

Dear @atmasphere  : After 4 months I suggested my friend try subs to look for an improvement and before that nothing was wrong with the bass but true self powered subs goes lower than what is need and SL can't goes down there.

Latter on he changed the Majestic line for the top Ultimate that sounds alittle better but with almost same problem in the low bass.

JC 1+ has no problem to handled at any SPL the Ultimate SL or any other speaker out there, problem is the SL low bass overall performance.

R.

After 4 months I suggested my friend try subs to look for an improvement and before that nothing was wrong with the bass but true self powered subs goes lower than what is need and SL can't goes down there.

Latter on he changed the Majestic line for the top Ultimate that sounds alittle better but with almost same problem in the low bass.

@rauliruegas In this statement you are again confirming our experience. The large Sound Labs like the A1 and Majestic have no trouble whatsoever playing the deepest bass effortlessly. They go right down to 20Hz. But if the amplifier used to drive them behaves as a voltage source (for example, but not limited to the Parasound) it will be found to be bass shy. This is simply because the amp can't make power into such a high impedance in the bass as occurs in the Sound Lab.

So it is common with Sound Lab owners who use solid state amps to look to subwoofers to get the bass right.

 

@atmasphere : Please don’t try to state what you not0 even experienced because what you posted about is that you have not the experience to listen true bass down to at least 16hz with out almost distortion and at near 120dbs. Something that no single SL can do it by it self.

 

Read this review where the reviewer mated with Bricasti and Pass monoblokks:

 

With the SL friend was the SL designer/owner who gave him the recomendation of the JC monoblocks to mates his design. Not atmasphere but the self designer: got it?

Here the Majestic specs from the SL site:

 

https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/majestic/

R.

PERIOD.

Please don’t try to state what you not0 even experienced because what you posted about is that you have not the experience to listen true bass down to at least 16hz with out almost distortion and at near 120dbs.

@rauliruegas That is so funny- ROTFLMAO!!

Its funny because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, which in this case is what I might have done or experienced in my life!

Sheesh  🤣

Dr West often recommends the Atma-Sphere MA-2 for his products and so about 80% of our MA-2 production drives SL speakers. We've shown at CES and THE Show multiple times with Sound Lab (starting back when CES was still at the Sahara in the early 1990s), and gotten Best Sound at Show (Dick Olsher); I've heard Sound Labs with our gear a lot over the last 25 years and I'm on a first name basis with him and others there.

I'm not denigrating Parasound or any other solid state amp in my comments. Dr West did recommend Parasound to anyone who suggested that they don't want tubes. I get that. Of course you know that we have a class D amplifier we've been selling the last year and a half; we get asked if that amp will drive Sound Labs and my answer is the same as if it were any other amplifier:

'It will drive Sound Labs but will not make the power and might seem a bit bass shy simply due to the impedance of the speaker being 30 Ohms in the bass.' That statement applies to all solid state amps that operate as voltage source on Sound Labs and that includes the Parasound (FWIW when I've visited Sound Lab they had a Boulder amplifier).

Now the speaker allows you some adjustment of output levels- it has bass jumpers for changing that level a bit and a Brilliance control. So unlike a lot of ESLs its a bit more adjustable to the voltage response of the amplifier. But its going to be bass shy with solid state amps because solid state amps tend to act as a voltage source.

How this works is the impedance curve of the speaker varies by a factor of about 10:1 from the bass to 20KHz. So its about 3 Ohms at 20KHz (somewhat dependent on the position of the Brilliance control) and 30 Ohms in the bass. It is a little different from other ESLs in that it employs a crossover for two transformers used to interface between the amp and the speaker panel- one for highs and one for lows. So the impedance curve has a bump in it that corresponds to the crossover to the HF transformer. ESLs don't follow the same speaker design rules that box speakers do, starting for the most obvious reason that there's no box with its accompanying resonance.

 

 

Here we go. Another thread ruined by the usual culprit.

@atmasphere  : I don't care about your M-2.

 

My friend never mentioned to the designer that he did not wants tubes ( as I posted he was a tube lover. Even designed  2-3 that he used with his Quad's. ). The SL designer was who gave him the JC recomendation.

 

I know very well all the facilities of the SL and I really know it. Already know about both transformers, even I mentioned here to mijos. So in what thread are you reading?

 

Useless your post, at least for me.

 

R.

I recently attended a Connie Han Trio concert in an intimate room and the drums were so over-miked that it was hard to hear the other players.  No idea why the drums were even amplified.  I need a reason to get out of the house these days and enjoy the atmosphere of live concerts, but overall prefer listening to my home system with a Don Sachs front end, an Aqua LaVoce DAC, and Spatial Audio speakers, where most everything is dialed in.  I control the volume, not the guy on the mixing board.  

@atmasphere ​​@rauliruegas , OK guys, I'm the one who owns the SLs. You are both right and both wrong. Asking Dipole ESLs to make bass causes a lot of trouble. They will do it but it knocks the wind out of them in regards to headroom and increases distortion very obviously unless you only listen to them whisper quiet. Ralph's amps do a better job of driving them but I am still going to cross out at 100 Hz to subwoofers. I am not crossing out of the SLs because I am using JC 1s and am worried about their ability to make bass into ESLs. I am doing it so I can get a clean 105 dB out of the SLs and not be slapping the stators with every drum beat. Roger West knows this and has actually made ESL subwoofers. Last we talked he was making a client subs using 30" woofers. 

SL used to make and sell a single huge ESL woofer panel to be placed in between a pair of their largest speakers, then called the A1. They also made add on wings for the A1, to attenuate the back wave and reduce cancellation. That becomes less necessary with their current curved arrays. I get wonderful chest thumping bass out of my 845PXs, and if I were to add subwoofers I would crossover way below 100Hz. But that’s just me. I am not offended if someone else wants to do differently.

My Quad 2905s have a pair of extra panels over the usual arrangement of the 63 and later models. They aren't bad at bass, but it is rather polite. Fine for classical music, but not really authentic for good recordings of small ensembles. My fix for it will horrify those with more money to throw at it: I have a powered subwoofer, made by Axiom in Canada, and bought very cheaply to go with a basement movie room in my old house. My pre-amp has two sets of outputs, one for my Quad II/forty amps, and the other goes to a Musical Fidelity X-Can V3 for headphones. The X-Can has a pass-through function, so I can use its output jacks to go to the powered subwoofer. It has its own volume control and crossover adjustment. I do use Y-connectors to make the X-Can work in mono (you'll see why below) and to feed a mono signal on to the subwoofer.

The subwoofer blends in nicely with the Quad ESLs and it doesn't seem at all disjointed to me. I may have two advantages here: the new house has a large open plan main floor, and in the centre of it is a fireplace and chimney breast which rises up to the post and beam rafters. My Quads sit on either side of the fireplace, the monoblocks are at the side of the fireplace, and the turntables etc sit on an old oak chest at the rear of the chimney breast. The subwoofer sits beside the chest. No one sitting on the sofas in front of the speakers has any idea where the bass is coming from, and it only sounds odd if you go back to the turntables and discover the bass is pretty strong back there. However, no one listens back there as the area is a large curved staircase well down into the basement. My secret weapon though, is that I have only one functional ear, so I just don't do directional hearing at all! I'd like to hear stereo, but never have since I lost my left ear aged eight, and I can't say I miss it as I have no memory of what it was like. That's why I make my headphones play in mono. So it all works for me and makes me happy. My old neighbour from the last house was a concert pianist and when she visits I play her all sorts of piano pieces, and she often comments on how it sounds like there is an actual piano in the room. She should know: she has a baby grand in her house!

 

@lewm You're referring to the B1 subwoofer. One of our customers ran a pair of B1 subs between his A1s. It was helpful to get the bass excursion off of the main panels so it could be lower distortion.

 

@asctim my Dad was a trumpet player and I've been conjecturing for years why no recording of a trumpet (and worse, string sections) doesn't sound anything like live. 

My theories are:

1) Dispersion pattern, as you noted. 

2) Mismatch between speaker type and mic type

3) Trumpet has a DC component to the outflowing air column that may create complex phase variances microphones can't capture or speakers can't play

It is a constant annoyance when guitars sound 8 feet wide, violin sections sound like a bad synthesizer, pianos sound like they are mounted vertically on the front wall, etc. and I agree recording technique is largely to blame. 

 

I've considered building a pair of dodecahedron mics and matching speakers to see if that works. But 24 channel stereo just isn't something current media and gear can handle.

@esputnix my one jaw drop moment was taking a tour of Mechanics Ha in Worcester, MA. First we were in the hall itself, then we went upstairs to their highly customized remote listening area with B&W 801s just outside the mixing booth upstairs. The walls were specially treated and the room was packed with people. Because we had just left the hall our ears were accustomed to its acoustics, so when they played a live recording it seriously sounded like w and a requsst in right in front of the orchestra. It was magical. I've never heard anything like it since, but if you have the opportunity to travel, ask them if they can arrange for a tour so you can hear what I heard. 

 

They played 

@lewm , thanks Lew. That is a common subwoofer mistake, crossing over too low. The makers of commercial subs using just a low pass filter suggest that but, it does not clean up the main speaker as much. Info below 40 Hz is relatively rare. If you can see the cones of the subwoofers moving then Doppler distortion is at play not to mention the non linearities you get into on far excursions. If you play test tones you can easily see the cones moving up to about 100 Hz. This is double important on ESLs because the driver is full range. When dealing with a dynamic speakers it will only be the range of the woofer that is cleaned up. This is still substantial in most instances. This mandates a complete two way crossover. I am also talking about digital crossovers which are a benefit as delays can be adjusted so that the signal arrives at the listening position at the same time in phase. The best location for dipoles in the room is never the best location for subwoofers. It is not easy to make subs blend in with 8 foot tall ESLs. It is not the dipole nature of ESL that creates the conflict but rather the line source characteristics. It requires a line source subwoofer especially if crossing up higher. As I previously mentioned Dr West is aware of all of this but he has to sell loudspeakers to survive and many people do not want to get involved in loudspeakers that require subs. Jim Strickland of Acoustat was the same way, maybe worse. He stubbornly refused to admit his speakers benefited from subwoofers. 

We once calculated that my speakers have about 400 in.² greater radiating area then do yours. Perhaps that’s where our results differ, because my speakers are not perceptibly distorting in anyway at 100 Hz. And there is the added value of coherence and continuity with higher frequency music. Now you are saying there is no point in reproducing music below 40 Hz, because there is not much information. Isn’t that contrary to your previous assertions about your system going down to 15 Hz or thereabouts? Why do you bother to be concerned about frequencies below 40 Hz, if they are irrelevant? I say this Not as someone who believes that frequencies below 40 Hz are irrelevant.

I remember a blind test in the 80s where blindfolded listeners compared live performances with recordings of the same music in the same space.  The results were strong; most listeners were able to distinguish easily and reliably.  Even $1,000,000 systems have a long way to go.

These tests should be repeated.

It is also easy to run blind tests of components.  Set up two identical complete systems in the same space.  Insert the two components to be tested in the systems.  Play the same recordings A B X, where blindfolded listeners are to identify X as A or B.  Repeat say 10 times.  Score the number of successes against the probability of the result being chance.   For sticklers re-run the test with the common system components swapped out.  Golden ears should be very afraid, but these tests should be run to establish whether they have any worthwhile credentials.

 

Dear @mijostyn  :  " The surrounds corroded and they literally fell apart. I can not quote you figures but I do know that given appropriately large drivers in well constructed sealed enclosures distortion levels are easily under 0.5%. It is only when using smaller drivers in flimsy enclosures that distortion becomes a problem.  An amplifier that has tight control over the driver like the JC 1s with their damping factor over 1000 will result in excellent performance far in excess of what any Class D plate amplifier can provide assuming a large driver in a well constructed enclosure of which there are very few. The Velodyns do not qualify as a well constructed enclosure. No commercial subwoofer excepting the Magico Q series qualifies.  "

 

Which Velodyne you own for 10 years?, mines I think has even more with no single problem " the surrounds corroded.

 

"  I do know that given appropriately large drivers in well constructed sealed enclosures distortion levels are easily under 0.5%. "

 

I disagree with you till you,please , share 2-3 names where that is happening. In the case of my Velodyne what permits that the THD be as low as 0.5% is that as I posted Velodyne is monitoring the woofer excursions over 16K times each second. My velodyne is self powered by a class D amplifier, here some specs:

"""" 

• High quality crossover system
• High Gain Servo System
• Selectable subsonic filter (15/35Hz)
• Infrared remote control (optional)
• Adjustable low-pass filter
• Subwoofer Direct crossover by-pass
• Phase adjustment
• XLR-Connector
• Auto On/Off

Amplifier: Class D 1250 Wrms (3000 W peak)
Woofer: 15" forward-firing (12.7" piston diameter)
Voice Coil: 3" Dual Tandem push-pull
Excursion: 2" maximum
Magnet Structure: 380 oz  (24 lbs)
High Pass Crossover: passive 80/100Hz (6db/octave filter)
Low Pass Crossover: 40Hz-120Hz (12db/octave initial; 48dB/octave ultimate)
Crossover Bypass: Yes - subwoofer direct
Anti-clipping Circuit: Yes.

 

As I posted my units position are not firing directly to the seta position and not between the main speakers but  side firing in between seated at 15cm.-20cm. from the floor just in front of each speaker and have in the top plate a a 40kg. dead weigth.

The subwoofers were modified in its amps, input electronics and the woofers rewired with KK KCAG cable. I'm so demanding in my system that when we analized the input electronics not only modied but we took in count that the shortest signal path is not at its RCA input but to the balnace input and where are connected. By a " detail " on something similar my ML 20.6 modified monobloks are connected directly to the amps mother board inputs not in the balanced way but in the shortes path: single ended.

 

Btw, the Velodyne construction makes its job, at least my  now " vintage "units.

 

 

"" When dealing with a dynamic speakers it will only be the range of the woofer that is cleaned up. ""

 

Not really because when you cleaned up the woofers ( as in my ADS high pass filter ) and lowers its IMD then the mid-range and high frequencies really shines as never before due that the woofers " dirty " harmonics already gone ! ! and this is the main issue about.

 

Only Magico, really? Today there are several good options and in the past I had the opportunity tolisten the Krells subs self powered by Krell special dedicated class A amps and listened to the Wilson Audio. Both great units.

Btw, thank's for your offer but rigth now I'm fine about.

 

I forgot to mention that with and with out subs the top SL are a little " short " in its overall quality lwevel than my ADS system

TYhe best planar speakers other than SL were the Apogge and inside its line the Scintilla,  Magnepan middle line with subs. For me Ribbon are a little better than electrostatic designs.

 

I return my subs to 80hz crossover, 95 hz just does not works for me.

 

R.

My system sounds live and spooky real depending on the recording. I think I can push it to live most of the time rather than some of the time with adding BACCH to my system this spring. I know live music, my dad practiced grand piano 3 hours a day as a kid and he put on a number of 2 hour concerts consisting of any classical artist you can think of. I also played bassoon second chair in the Wisconsin Youth Symphony. That’s why I pursued this hobby. As mentioned above I do run my mains full range and supplement with 4 subwoofers. The system is all active with no passive components. I have 12 biquad filters created with an Earthworks microphone measuring 30K-30KHz in conjunction with Room EQ Wizard and Multi Sub Optimizer. I’ve had more than one person brought to tears listening to their favorite piece. I’d say that is confirmation that it is a live like performance if it can elicit that kind of emotional response. I’ve heard this before on another system that was highly directional, Sadurni Acoustics Horns, but the image was only wide enough for one person and it was ruined if you moved your head more than a few inches. 
 

Thanks,

Steve

Dear @hifidream : Sadurni Acoustics Horns? what small is the world.

 

Things are that J.Sadurdi ( designer and manufacturer ) is a close friend of mine and he was living here in México for almost all his life till the last 4-5 years that he gone to USA and now ives in Austin, TX.

 

At the began of his " hron adventure " I was helping for months/years in the voicing of several prototypes. Today his designs are just great.

 

Btw, where do you experienced the Sadurni speakers?

 

Thank’s in advance.

 

R.

 

This could be a " way experience " to live it:

 

 

@rauliruegas

That is a great story! I heard them at an AXPONA show in Chicago. I brought my wife and dad to the show because they had never heard sound reproduction on that level and I wanted them to understand what I was trying to achieve. (This is when I bought my Kinergetic Subs and Pass Labs amp used and couldn’t play them for years.) I’ve built my whole system on the BACCH principles from the beginning. I can’t wait to get that final piece. You should have seen my dad’s eyes light up when he sat in the magical spot. He was like a little kid and couldn’t believe how 3-D spooky real they were but he broke the magic turning to tell me. It was a revelation though and both he and my wife understood why I wanted to do this. She used to sing in Jazz clubs in college to pay her way through. She loves it as much as I do. It’s great to have someone to share it with.

@rauliruegas, Raul, we built our systems over many years guided by our own preferences which vary to a large degree even though we agree on many aspects. On these issues I can tell you that you need to alter your opinion. I owned Apogee Divas for 6 years. A very enticing speaker that was seriously fragile and unreliable. Magnepans are much better from a durability standpoint and I think the 20.7 is even better sounding. The Scintillas could never reach realistic volume levels even with subwoofers. Apogee was right down the road from me in Massachusetts and I was in the factory on numerous occasions.

The Velodynes I owned were UDL 15s7's. The surround was foam and they all disintegrated.  I have never heard a plate amp of any type perform anywhere near the level of a powerful class A or AB amp. These were the last active subs I ever and ever will use. Turn your system up to 90 dB playing any bass heavy number and put your hand on the subwoofer. That vibration you feel is distortion. In order for any subwoofer to be competitive it has to be a balanced force design, two identical drivers in phase directly opposed to each other.  A 100 lb plate on top will not achieve the same results. Just wishful thinking. There are many subwoofer drivers with very low distortion specs. Just go to Parts express and have a look. The problem with subs is not the driver, it is the enclosure. Your servo system corrects the driver but not the enclosure. Of the commercial subs I have heard the Magicos are handily the best. I have not heard all the subwoofers out there. I have heard enough to know what designs have a chance of performing well. The problem with the Magicos for me is their size. I need to use four subs to form a line source and the Magicos are way to big. Fortunately, with digital subwoofer management and modern drivers you can make larger drivers perform wonderfully in small enclosures as long as you have enough power. I would love to use 15" drivers but again due to size I am limited to eight 12" drivers in four very special enclosures that have never been seen before. They are balanced force and stiffer than any enclosure in existence. They do not resonate at all. They are also pretty cool looking. At my current shop rate a pair will cost $50,000. That is how much work goes into them and they are passive so one would need to by amps and crossovers.  

I think your speakers are a cool design that fails in two major ways. Dynamic drivers are much heavier that the air they move. It is like trying to run a motor without a load on it. It is very inefficient and due to their uncontrolled dispersion cause more difficulty with room acoustics. Your speakers have fractured dispersion. They are point source and omnidirectional in the bass and high frequencies and line source in the midrange which controls dispersion up and down but not to the sides. All this means that the amplitude response is going to vary with distance and you are still stuck with the acoustic problems of omnidirectional speakers. 

My experience with ESLs goes back to 1978. I have owned five different versions, three of them hopelessly flawed because of bad electronics and fractured dispersion characteristics like your speakers, point source at lower frequencies and line source in the upper octaves. In order for an ESL to perform at it's best it has to be a full range dipole line source. This solidifies the image and makes them much more powerful. In order to function as full range line sources they have to extend from the floor to the ceiling, within a couple of inches. In order to produce realistic volumes with the extremely low distortion they are capable of they have to be mated to subwoofers and cross with steep curves no lower than 100 Hz. This requires digital crossovers. It can not be done with analog crossovers without significant damage to the sound. The beauty of Line source dipoles is that they do not radiate at all to the sides, up or down. They only send sound in a figure 8 pattern front and back. This make room acoustics a much more trivial problem. You only need absorption behind the speakers. The result is a very solid well defined image at all distances. There is no dynamic speaker that can match the transient response and detail of a proper ESL. The only advantage Dynamic speakers can have is size. They can be made much smaller. That is about it. 

Amazing, isn't it, how we all are able to dismiss Peter Walker's FRED (full range electrostatic dipole)? There was some wishful thinking there, rather than marketing hype, given the era. The fact remains obvious to all fans of electrostatics - they need a little help in the bass. Not much, but just enough, like a sprinkle of salt on an omelette—just enough to emphasize the taste of the eggs, not so much that it tastes of salt.

Mijostyn, I appreciate your unequivocal convictions on nearly all things audio, but don’t you think you’re a bit over the top or around the bend in subwoofers? The ONLY worthwhile design is the dipole??? Really? I do like the idea of the dipole though for its potentially compact form factor. What do you recommend? Have you ever heard a really correctly built full size transmission line woofer? For me that’s the fastest and lowest distortion bass for mating with an ESL. But can be very large. Also, if a subwoofer is palpably vibrating, could that possibly mean it’s playing bass tones, not distorting? Or do you think a sub should play bass without moving at all? I’d like to see that.

I didn’t read all the responses but here’s my $.02. Of course nothing compares to good quality live music. There are too many steps along the way to reproducing music in our home w/ varying degrees of sound degradation. 
 

For the type of music mentioned, amplified rock w/ guitar, drums, bass guitar , vocals etc, good quality horns powered by tubes is, imo, the way to go if you want close to live sound without spending a fortune on heroicly priced speakers & amps!  Unamplified  music might be better suited for paneled speakers like Magnapans or Martin Logan’s, both for reasonable $. 
 

I own & really enjoy Volti Audio Rivals. They may not be the last word in ultra fine details & crazy frequency extreme extension but for dynamics, big sound stage, very fast & open midrange,  & “live sound” in their price range, tough to beat. A good 20 watts w/ a good source is all they need to sound great. 

Dear @mijostyn : First those UDL by Velodyne came from 1989 and yes that surround foam was terrible for say the least.

You live in your " small world " of your subwoofers and nothing can touch it when the real world has several alternatives even better than Magico as Evolution Acoustics :

 

M.Lavigne owns the MM 7.

 

In the other side I owned the Scintilla mated with Entec subs and running with monobloks that puts enough current to handled and amps with over 6db headroom. I never had any troble about and I can’t know for the Diva.

Electrostatic speaker designs is not the " ultimate " speakers as a fact I listened almost all from Stax/ EMT/ ML/ Beveridge , etc, etc and the only one that like me is SL that I listened several times for long time.

Magnepan planar design is really better than your SL paired or not with subs.

Btw, my Velodyne is a way difefrent model ( no foam surrounded the woofers. ) and as I told you are heavy modified including internal bracing but I don’t " care " all those when the reality is that its measured THD is 0.5% that only the Titan is comparable.

Each designer " kills flea in his own way " be Magico, Evolution, Velodyne, HSU, Paradigm, Thiel, ML, , etc, etc.

Btw,, I agree with @lewm transmission line woofer ( everything the same ) can’t be outperformed not even by your four subs or Magico or what ever you could think. Come on mijos youa are better than that.

 

Your theory about my ADS ( that you never listened in the modified way in my samples. ) are just theory and you can be sure that your SL can’t puts you nearer to the recording than my L2030. Btw, I never said my speakers has no fail or are perfect and I know for sure are not perfect. Period.

 

Now, you can follow with lewm, don’t you think?

 

R.

Dear @hifidream  : Thank's to share that experience.

 

I know think you Own Magnepan 20 along those Kinergetic subs that I knew and listened many times paired with ML electrostatic because the distributor in México was who brougth both names here. Even with the Kinergetics ML never like me. As I told best planar speaker design for me Magnepan and with limited FR the Quad.

R.

dogberry, No one, least of all me, is dismissing full range ESLs. That’s exactly what I listen to in one of my two systems, Sound Lab 845PXs, with no subwoofer. One reason for no subwoofer is my disinclination to clutter up the listening room any further, since it is also our living room where we entertain guests after dinner in the adjoining dining room. Three turntables, front end electronics, the huge 845PXs, and two large monoblock Atma-sphere chassis’ are enough. Other reasons for no subwoof, related to the first, are my own cheapskate nature, the wonderful deep bass I get from the panels with no augmentation, and the fact that I believe I would have to spend quite a lot of money to find a subwoof that can keep up with and blend with an ESL. However, I do not argue with those two guys who describe the putative benefits of a subwoof. In principle, they are correct.  However, I take exception to Mijo's endorsing Doppler Distortion as a compelling mechanism for crossing over at a relatively high frequency (100Hz or higher).  Because I doubt "Doppler Distortion", which is a real thing but not really due to the Doppler Effect, is much of a factor with a huge planar speaker that has a much shorter excursion than does a dynamic speaker and spreads the frequencies among a myriad of unitary panels of different sizes so as to distribute resonance.

 

Jonwolf, I heard the Volti Audio Rivals at the Capital Audiofest. I thought they were excellent, far better than many much more expensive speakers that I heard at the show. In fact, in many ways I thought they were better than the older big brother Volti speakers at $20K, which were owned by my neighbor and which I heard at length at his house. Good choice.