Dear @mijostyn " It will in no any way effect the actual performance of the higher frequency drivers. "
I never posted that. Do you think I'm so stupid to post that?.. Come on mijos.
This comes from 2005 ( 17 year ago ) and I learned way before:
R.
System that sounds so real it is easy to mistaken it is not live
My current stereo system consists of Oracle turntable with SME IV tonearm, Dynavector XV cartridge feeding Manley Steelhead and two Snappers monoblocks running 15" Tannoy Super Gold Monitors. Half of vinyl records are 45 RMP and were purchased new from Blue Note, AP, MoFI, IMPEX and some others. While some records play better than others none of them make my system sound as good as a live band I happened to see yesterday right on a street. The musicians played at the front of outdoor restaurant. There was a bass guitar, a drummer, a keyboard and a singer. The electric bass guitar was connected to some portable floor speaker and drums were not amplified. The sound of this live music, the sharpness and punch of it, the sound of real drums, the cymbals, the deepness, thunder-like sound of bass guitar coming from probably $500 dollars speaker was simply mind blowing. There is a lot of audiophile gear out there. Some sound better than others. Have you ever listened to a stereo system that produced a sound that would make you believe it was a real live music or live band performance at front of you?
Showing 25 responses by rauliruegas
Dear @mijostyn : " 90 dB and not only will your sub be shaking but so will the whole house. " , not in my place.
" If any of the woofer's "upper harmonics" are getting through to the rest of the loudspeaker someone really f-ed up on the design of the woofer to midrange crossover. ", that's not what I said.
" dynamic system will relieve the system's woofer from taking long excursions which will keep it in a more linear zone of operation lowering distortion and Doppler effect of the woofer. " this is what I'm saying and this effect means the IMD goes lower and that permits the mdYhi frequencies been listened with new clarity/transparency and the like.
Good luck. When will be in the market?
R. |
Dear @lewm : I had the opportunity to listened the IMF speakers that were transmission line design and I always ( even today ) remember that " dreaming " kind of bass range quality performance. Extraordinary.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : I'm not laughin of you or any one else, that's is never my attitude. Some of the subs I named comes with that balanced forces that you loved even one of them comes with four woofers. My subs does not shake as you said and as my ADS are internally painted with the Acoustical Magic antivibration blend. The internal bracing was not my original idea but I took when I had to ask advise to the ADS self designer on something about a little change I wanted to do, he told me that I can't do that change but ( he continue tell me. ) what you can do to improve the ADS whole performance is to bracing both woofer inside " boxes " and I did it and he was so rigth about and from here I did it in my " infamous " subs. And you know what? My " infamous " point source ADS and subs performs awesome.
With all respect I don't want to follow talking with a gentleman that is so " entitled " to subs but at the same time was unknow the main target to use subs in an home stereo system ( @lewm , including your SL. ): this is wat you posted and my answer to you:
"" When dealing with a dynamic speakers it will only be the range of the woofer that is cleaned up. ""
Not really because when you cleaned up the woofers and lowers its IMD then the mid-range and high frequencies really shines as never before due that the woofers " dirty/trash" harmonics already gone ! ! and this is the main issue/target about. Obviously with other additional advantages.
R.
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Dear @hifidream : Thank's to share that experience.
I know think you Own Magnepan 20 along those Kinergetic subs that I knew and listened many times paired with ML electrostatic because the distributor in México was who brougth both names here. Even with the Kinergetics ML never like me. As I told best planar speaker design for me Magnepan and with limited FR the Quad. R. |
Dear @mijostyn : First those UDL by Velodyne came from 1989 and yes that surround foam was terrible for say the least. You live in your " small world " of your subwoofers and nothing can touch it when the real world has several alternatives even better than Magico as Evolution Acoustics :
M.Lavigne owns the MM 7.
In the other side I owned the Scintilla mated with Entec subs and running with monobloks that puts enough current to handled and amps with over 6db headroom. I never had any troble about and I can’t know for the Diva. Electrostatic speaker designs is not the " ultimate " speakers as a fact I listened almost all from Stax/ EMT/ ML/ Beveridge , etc, etc and the only one that like me is SL that I listened several times for long time. Magnepan planar design is really better than your SL paired or not with subs. Btw, my Velodyne is a way difefrent model ( no foam surrounded the woofers. ) and as I told you are heavy modified including internal bracing but I don’t " care " all those when the reality is that its measured THD is 0.5% that only the Titan is comparable. Each designer " kills flea in his own way " be Magico, Evolution, Velodyne, HSU, Paradigm, Thiel, ML, , etc, etc. Btw,, I agree with @lewm transmission line woofer ( everything the same ) can’t be outperformed not even by your four subs or Magico or what ever you could think. Come on mijos youa are better than that.
Your theory about my ADS ( that you never listened in the modified way in my samples. ) are just theory and you can be sure that your SL can’t puts you nearer to the recording than my L2030. Btw, I never said my speakers has no fail or are perfect and I know for sure are not perfect. Period.
Now, you can follow with lewm, don’t you think?
R. |
Dear @hifidream : Sadurni Acoustics Horns? what small is the world.
Things are that J.Sadurdi ( designer and manufacturer ) is a close friend of mine and he was living here in México for almost all his life till the last 4-5 years that he gone to USA and now ives in Austin, TX.
At the began of his " hron adventure " I was helping for months/years in the voicing of several prototypes. Today his designs are just great.
Btw, where do you experienced the Sadurni speakers?
Thank’s in advance.
R.
This could be a " way experience " to live it:
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Dear @mijostyn : " The surrounds corroded and they literally fell apart. I can not quote you figures but I do know that given appropriately large drivers in well constructed sealed enclosures distortion levels are easily under 0.5%. It is only when using smaller drivers in flimsy enclosures that distortion becomes a problem. An amplifier that has tight control over the driver like the JC 1s with their damping factor over 1000 will result in excellent performance far in excess of what any Class D plate amplifier can provide assuming a large driver in a well constructed enclosure of which there are very few. The Velodyns do not qualify as a well constructed enclosure. No commercial subwoofer excepting the Magico Q series qualifies. "
Which Velodyne you own for 10 years?, mines I think has even more with no single problem " the surrounds corroded.
" I do know that given appropriately large drivers in well constructed sealed enclosures distortion levels are easily under 0.5%. "
I disagree with you till you,please , share 2-3 names where that is happening. In the case of my Velodyne what permits that the THD be as low as 0.5% is that as I posted Velodyne is monitoring the woofer excursions over 16K times each second. My velodyne is self powered by a class D amplifier, here some specs: """"
Amplifier: Class D 1250 Wrms (3000 W peak)
As I posted my units position are not firing directly to the seta position and not between the main speakers but side firing in between seated at 15cm.-20cm. from the floor just in front of each speaker and have in the top plate a a 40kg. dead weigth. The subwoofers were modified in its amps, input electronics and the woofers rewired with KK KCAG cable. I'm so demanding in my system that when we analized the input electronics not only modied but we took in count that the shortest signal path is not at its RCA input but to the balnace input and where are connected. By a " detail " on something similar my ML 20.6 modified monobloks are connected directly to the amps mother board inputs not in the balanced way but in the shortes path: single ended.
Btw, the Velodyne construction makes its job, at least my now " vintage "units.
"" When dealing with a dynamic speakers it will only be the range of the woofer that is cleaned up. ""
Not really because when you cleaned up the woofers ( as in my ADS high pass filter ) and lowers its IMD then the mid-range and high frequencies really shines as never before due that the woofers " dirty " harmonics already gone ! ! and this is the main issue about.
Only Magico, really? Today there are several good options and in the past I had the opportunity tolisten the Krells subs self powered by Krell special dedicated class A amps and listened to the Wilson Audio. Both great units. Btw, thank's for your offer but rigth now I'm fine about.
I forgot to mention that with and with out subs the top SL are a little " short " in its overall quality lwevel than my ADS system TYhe best planar speakers other than SL were the Apogge and inside its line the Scintilla, Magnepan middle line with subs. For me Ribbon are a little better than electrostatic designs.
I return my subs to 80hz crossover, 95 hz just does not works for me.
R. |
@atmasphere : I don't care about your M-2.
My friend never mentioned to the designer that he did not wants tubes ( as I posted he was a tube lover. Even designed 2-3 that he used with his Quad's. ). The SL designer was who gave him the JC recomendation.
I know very well all the facilities of the SL and I really know it. Already know about both transformers, even I mentioned here to mijos. So in what thread are you reading?
Useless your post, at least for me.
R. |
@atmasphere : Please don’t try to state what you not0 even experienced because what you posted about is that you have not the experience to listen true bass down to at least 16hz with out almost distortion and at near 120dbs. Something that no single SL can do it by it self.
Read this review where the reviewer mated with Bricasti and Pass monoblokks:
With the SL friend was the SL designer/owner who gave him the recomendation of the JC monoblocks to mates his design. Not atmasphere but the self designer: got it? Here the Majestic specs from the SL site:
https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/majestic/ R. |
Dear @atmasphere : After 4 months I suggested my friend try subs to look for an improvement and before that nothing was wrong with the bass but true self powered subs goes lower than what is need and SL can't goes down there. Latter on he changed the Majestic line for the top Ultimate that sounds alittle better but with almost same problem in the low bass. JC 1+ has no problem to handled at any SPL the Ultimate SL or any other speaker out there, problem is the SL low bass overall performance. R. |
Dear @atmasphere : I know that very weel and knowing the JC 1+ design I posted about.
Look, a really whealty friend of mine was and is in " love " with my quality level speakers so he took around 10 days of his time and fligth to Utha where he was with Wilson and Sound Labs and cost no object for him he decided to come back México bringing with him the top of the line Sound Labs and the pair of Parasound monobloks that were recomended by the desigbner him self.
He did not comment with me nothing about but around 3 weeks with the speaker/amp in his big dedicated room invited me to listen his system ( before the Sound Labs he owned Raidho beautiful DK speakers ) and was a surprise to me to found out the SL down there and till that day we try to improve the SL quality room levels performance ( obviously with subs. ). Well even all those he told me months latter at my place: " I really like my SL/JC but still prefers your vinatge system ".
In the other side he was a tube lover till SL designer gave the advice for the Parasound. You already know that after owned for 10 years tubes and from some time now I'm allergic to tubes ( any ) for my system no matters what.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : I think you builded your subwoofers that are digital controled in its parameters and I whish to know which is its THD at 120db SPL at 16hz-20hz.
In my Velodyne's ( sealed design ) its woofers are mated with a self powered amplifier that MEETS all the woffer characteristics along that the woofer is under self " inspection " around 16k times at each second and all those makes that its THD at almost full power been as low as 0.5%.
If you have not " something " that be checking in real time the subs THD then the JC 1+ is not the " best " option because that Parasound was not designed for subwoofers as your desing.
@atmasphere the JC 1+ puts around 300 watts at 16 ohms and can handle even higher impedance with absolute aplomb.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : " from a cost/performance ratio I will take the JC1+ any day. Is Meitner any better than John Curl? " Well, Parasound builded at a specific market price and the build parts they used are good but not good enough. Example: Parasound used Nichicon elctrolytic filter caps instead say Vishay or Cornell Dubelier that are 50%+ higher in price but even with better quality performance levels. For the JC1+ price tag can’t be outperformed, agree with you. Btw, the 130/84 K monoblocks neither use Vishay/Cornell or even Kemet and looks more like Epcos/TDK or maybe Nichicon ! ? ! ? ?.
Meitner or JC ? I think both designers are different more than better one over the other, however and maybe because I own the legendary JC design in my system and already listened the Parasound mated with Sound Labs and big Dynaudio I could incline for JC but with no specific technical foundation.
R. |
Dear @mapman : System that sounds so real it is easy to mistaken it is not live.
That's the thread tittle: SYSTEM is the key word and any amp is only one link in a very complex room/system chain.
Anyway, you can post whatever you want because you have the rigth to do it.
R. |
Dear @lewm : With all respect: I think that you posted this:
" This is perhaps not the place to discuss it, for fear of boring a few others...."
and seems now that you are just insisting with. You can follow doing but which is your target that could help us?
R. |
Dear @jetter : Good to know you own Mweitner designs, he was and is a very well regarded designer/manufacturer and I think that almost any audiophile read or knows some body that speaks about EMM Labs CD many years ago. As a company Meitner still exist and doing fine. Here some information of Meitner:
https://www.emmlabs.com/legacy.php
R. |
Dear @jetter : Yes , those vintage speakers are really good and mines are even better due to my self modifications that I next explain along a little history behind ADS and behind the L230s:
" A/D/S/ (Analog & Digital System) History In 1966, a brilliant physicist, Dr. Godehard Guenther, came to the United states to work for NASA. Being an accomplished pianist and possessing an intensive passion for music, Dr. Guenther was disappointed with availability of high quality, cosmetically appealing audio products. He sent home for his Braun hi-fi system and soon his friend and co-workers were all asking if these products were available in the United States. He had Braun send a few systems and it quickly elevated to container loads. Godehard was awarded sole distribution right for Braun hi-fi in the United states. Dr. Guenther left NASA and move to Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1974. He started importing drivers from Braun and Id the assembling and selling of the finished products in the United States. Eventually, he sourced all components and began designing and building his own products sold under the a/d/s/ name. "
So those drivers and specially the tweeter and main midrange domes are just unique an unavialable and ADS used only in two speaker models: L 2030 and L 1530. We just can’t believe that those vintage domes can performs with that so high quality levels, we can swear are today best top drivers.
Btw, latter on Ed Meitner was the chief engeneering and ADS electronics appeared as were the Atelier line and Museatux one. My L 2030 were designed by Mickey Kelly that gone out from ADS to start Aerial Acoustics till today. The L-2030 " seen " the ligth thank’s to Telarc LP recording group whom talked with ADS to they build a custom made monitors under Telarc specs and that was what ADS did it and named BC 8/11 and was a full range bi-amp design that Telarc choosed to been handled by Threshold electronics. After started Telarc recordings the L-2030 appeared and Telarc used it along the 1530 too, always through Threshold electronics.
I bougth my pair with out knowing nothing about ADS speakers design and I bougth it at Metex Int. in Laredo, TX where I listened mated with Pioneer electronics , turntable and Denon cartridge. The tweaks/changes to it started to damp internally those big boxes: first it has " three hands " of a insulation/antivibrational treatment ( like a white paint. I can’t remember the ingredients. ) from Acoustical Magic Company ( it works marvelous ) and took me one full weeek to do it because I have to let dry that " paint " for the second and third hand and I had to take out all the speakers drivers to work with an empty box ( btw, both woofers are wired in parallel but each one in its own sealed space/compartiment. ). At the same time I change the internal stock damping glass fiber by 10kg ( in each speaker ) of long hair 100% virgin wool and change too the fabric cloth of the grille for a " transparent one ".
In original stock condition the L-2030 came with some convenience swtichs: one to choose mid-range line source or point source operation, two others to change the SPL in the tweeter and mid-range by -1.5db to +1.5 db and the other switch was for overload protection. Well, all those switchs just disappeared when I decided to make changes in the crossover: I take out the crossover ( now is external ) and change all the parts: resistors ( Powertron by Vishay. ), all silver air core solid ribbon ( 5.5 cms. of pure silver. Almost 2kg. of silver in the bigest one. ) Alpha-Core inductors , WIMA FKP 1 and KEMET caps in the crossover, the speakers cables goes soldered directly to the crossover parts. This speaker crossover is tri-hard-wired from the amps output to the 3-way crossover parts and speaker drivers.
In the woofers " today " instead that the crossover been with the inductor alogn its caps I take out the caps and connected in series only the silver inductor with no caps. From 4-5 months now the L-2030s re wired for point source operation and what can I say: just phenomenal/awesome. Yes, maybe you could be foolished by your ears listened to these speakers, even me because all the speakers surrounded system performs at the same quality level. No, it's not perfect, nothing it's. Wired as point source permits that the inductor in the midrange could goes out ( the diagram says that ) but till today I did not because I preffer to mantain mid-range IMD as lower I can because with out the silver inductor the mid-range can goes deeper in frequency. Maybe some time I will test it.
These L-2030s runs from 80hz and up and the bass frequency is handled by two Velodyne active HGS-15 subwoofers that were modified too and where its woofers are made of paper as the L-2030. I do not change those subs because its very low THD at full power ( over 120db at 16hz. ) of only 0.5%. Subs crossed at 95hz. These subs are just in front of the speakers looking in between face to face,
Btw, there is no additional external high pass crossover, this was solved internally on each Levinson 20.6 monoblock at its input with one FKP 1capacitor along a Vishay naked Z foil resistor.
@mijostyn I already check the DEQX and yes it’s a good option, thank’s.
R
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Dear @atmasphere : Woofers are made of paper cones and the periphelical surround it I think is a very special rubber treated material. I'm original owner and I can tell you that if my memory does not foolish me the rubber suspension " feels " as the first day I own it at your sigth and when you move those woofers with your hand. Not scientific way but its quality perormance levels never gone dawn but the other way around because any change I made it to the speakers or my system is detected for the good or the bad at once. Regarding the mid-ranges and tweeters the pheriphelical surround is paper and is impregnated of a " touchy sticky " solution.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : My dynamic type speakers can be operated in line source or point source fashion, we have to remember that ADS designed it as true proffesional/studio monitors and not for home systems.
My seat position is at 2m.-3.m. and sensityvity ADS spec is 95db. Normally I listen it in the 80's db SPL and only go to 95db SPL at seat position or even a little higher when I’m testing or comparings audio items. I like to take care of my way limited ears.
Btw, thank’s @atmasphere .
R. |
Dear @mijostyn: Sorry but everything the same your statements are wrong, it does not matters the quality level of your room/system.
I have no doubt that your system performs really good but even that fact it's far away, more that what you believe through your first hand experiences, from live MUSIC and if you still think that way then your ears are foolishing you.
Now, you post very often that listen at 95db SPL seat position that means that peaks could goes as higer as 105db SPL. I don't know if your seat position is at 1m. or 3m-5m,, maybe between 3m-4m.. Your Soundlabs has a sensitivity of 89db SPL at i meter and I'm wondering which distortion levels you measured at your seat position at that 95db-105db SPL that seems could be higher than the live MUSIC levels. Btw, you posted that crossover speakers degrades the signal but the transformers in your speakers does it too . Nothing is perfect. Anyway there are a few issues against what you posted.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |