Why not provide a link to your current support?
Support table or shelf for turntable
I was hoping to replace my oak table with either a wall mounted shelf of a heavy steel table.
The reason is that I am finding that the oak is picking up and transmitting vibrations to the turntable, a Garrard 401 in a birch ply plinth. I am hoping to move to a slate plinth and wanted to maximize the support strength and reduce feedback.
Here is a link to the shelf and here is a link to the table. Both examples of what I'm looking at.
Shelf would be mounted to concrete wall. Table would stand on concrete floor.
Thanks.
The reason is that I am finding that the oak is picking up and transmitting vibrations to the turntable, a Garrard 401 in a birch ply plinth. I am hoping to move to a slate plinth and wanted to maximize the support strength and reduce feedback.
Here is a link to the shelf and here is a link to the table. Both examples of what I'm looking at.
Shelf would be mounted to concrete wall. Table would stand on concrete floor.
Thanks.
83 responses Add your response
Since your table is obviously not subject to footfalls. I suggest you might want to consider what I have done, which is to use a Brightstar Audio isolation platform, which is basically a sandbox. I believe that may really help in your situation. I also use a Target wall mount platform for isolation from the floor to support my Garrard 401, which has a heavy plinth of MDF, and is clad in solid Purpleheart, the face being 1" thick, side and top panels between 5/16" and 1/2" thick, and is coupled to the Brightstar with Edensound Bear Paws, which are 3" X 3" solid brass footers, and weigh 6 lbs. each. This has worked well for me. This may have been mentioned in this thread already, but adding dampening (weight) to your support table may also help. Best of luck, regards, Dan |
No idea what your current table looks like, but just remember everything can pick up vibration, though the table and shelf you posted (particularly the table) don't seem to have many large surfaces to pick vibrations up, other than their 'work' surface. So they're probably better than what you've now, but no garauntee they'll not have any other issues |
@slaw , @toddverrone, you can see my table in systems. ( no one seems to loom there) https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1593 |
@islandmandan Thanks Dan. I’ll look into your suggestion. Although, with the new slate, when it arrives in a few weeks, I was hoping for something less massive and "constructed"... trying to keep it simple. Taut and rigid. The good news is that I have procured an Audio Grail 401 for the slate plinth. |
Took a quick look, I find it fascinating that since you feel the oak is causing the "pick up" of vibrations that you use marble slabs under your TT footers? In my experience this is a double negative. Marble adds mass but acts as a microphone. What material isolates the oak shelf from the rack? What are you using as the rack legs interface to floor? |
"Taut and rigid" seems like a good approach but actually this approach allows structural vibration to be transmitted *more easily* than "flexible and wobbly." This was the idea behind the Flexy Rack of yore. It’s also the idea behind isolation (decoupling) per se since the best isolation is obtained when the object being isolated is *free to move* in the directions of interest. I would like to see the object be able to undulate and wobbly slowly up and down and back and forth when manually pushed a little bit. Thus, roller bearings and springs ALLOW motion rather than CONSTRAIN it. Marble and granite are good materials as top plates for isolation stands due to their stiffness and mass. The quick fix the set up at hand would be to place low profile compression springs under the components on the table. The required spring rate of the springs and number of springs are not difficult to calculate. Problem solved! |
I double what geoffkait just said. It depends on your approach and your budget. If you are dead set on keeping what you have, here goes... Invest in a slightly larger Maple platform of 3" thick and slightly wider than your current rack dimensions. Install (3) Brass feet (into) this platform. Then add another maple platform on top of that decoupled by load rated springs, (hopefully you have the ability to or will have someone line these platforms up and recess the springs by 1’8" inch into the bottom/top. This will add 5"? to your current set-up? I assume this won’t matter since your components are already in the "line of fire", so to speak. This will completely decouple your rack from the floor. Now that your rack/system is decoupled from the floor...you can begin to address your components as geoffkait mentioned. To mention your marble again.. most materials are not perfectly level. While it may seem the oak platform or the marble mates well, most likely there is a big void in how these items mate, (in audio isolation terms) that compounds the very problem you are trying to avoid. So, most of the time a ball bearing type of interface or a spike is the best way to transfer vibrations. Not always though. The basics first, is the best approach. |
You may find this helpful in explaining the benefits and pitfalls of different solutions: http://symposiumusa.com/UltraAnalog.html I like the idea of both "isolating" the rig from external vibration while simultaneously draining the plinth and bearing of vibration through transmission to the constrained layer platform. I am in the process of installing an Ultra Platform under my TNT with a separate custom Super Plus mini-platform underneath the motor/flywheel assembly, all on top of my existing BrightStar Big Rock/Sound Anchors stand. Hoping to complete the project this week. Dave |
Thanks everyone for the valued suggestions. I’ll study up in more detail all the notes kindly supplied. Thanks. A few points to clarify:
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The springs route isn’t all that complex, I’m more than happy to help where I can.. Placing my turnable on a spring suspended butcher block platform reduced significantly any sounds caused by hitting my rack. I really have to hit it hard to get any sound to transfer to the speakers. If the coupling/shelf route doesn’t quite work 100%, you should definitely consider springs. That being said, rollerblocks seem like they'd add isolation in the horizontal plane as well as isolation from torsion, which certainly wouldn't hurt. |
Noromance, I hope I am not pointing out the obvious here, but the slate, by itself, won't isolate your 401/plinth from your existing table (if I'm understanding this right, not knowing if the slate will be on the top of the plinth, or under it). Isolation from the table is the key to success. If you would, please report the outcome, for we of curious minds. Regards, Dan |
@islandmandan Yes, I know that the slate will not isolate the table. I want to try the slate plinth as I believe that the birch-ply, while excellent at damping TT generated noise, is also responsible for a little smearing and subsequent loss of some detail. The relatively difficult, and frankly, cumbersome efforts to isolate the table can be ameliorated by wall mounting to concrete and keeping the structural hardware to a minimum. |
Actually, slate or marble or granite, assuming it’s not too thin, provides significant isolation against rotational forces attempting to bend the plate or slab, by virtue of its mass and stiffness. I am a big fan of bluestone, the gray blue stone usually used for paving, for its low cost and high mass and stiffness. Thus, the effectiveness of these heavy thick stone slabs with springs. |
noromance, I love your Eico monoblocks! I just gave my daughter my Eico ST-40 integrated. However, not original so heavily modified. Anyway, I'm moving towards the decoupling approach for my gear as mentioned by geoffkait and others. I've had tremendous success using decoupling springs with my subs to solve mechanical feedback issues through my turntable. Kenny |
@noromance ha! Yeah, the wooden balls are a little misleading. I sanded divots in the platform to keep them in place and they have some Teflon tubing inserted into a hole in the top that goes into the bottom of my TT plinth to keep everything stationary and still allow a bit of wiggle. I mostly did that because I removed the power supply and motor from the plinth and mounted them on a wood and granite mount I made. That necessitates keeping the plinth and motor mount in the same place relative to one another. For your use, you could just make an isolation platform and plop your TT on top, done and done! |
It's the second part mostly.. an open area between the speakers is supposed to increase depth and imaging. Though I'd imagine the sound waves would be stronger between the speakers than nearer the listening position as well. I, of course, break that rule with a console and a TV between my speakers. But that's how it goes sometimes. |
When I bought my trusty (vintage) Linn Basik/Akito some years ago I had put it on top of what I assumed was a reasonably stable gear rack…oops…bounced around like crazy (maybe my rack isn't so stable). I looked up the manual online and noted that Linn recommends a light weight low stable platform and I had one of those…little table, level, light, sturdy. Problem solved, and although the Basik utilizes only 3 large hollow rubber cones under it for damping, they are a brilliant design and the table sounds fabulous even though one of my subs is a few feet away from it. No feedback loop, no nuthin'. |
wolf_garcia, This doesn’t mean there is no further upgrade path. It just means what you’ve done sounds better than what you previously had. @ noromance, With a wall shelf comes other problems/issues. I, myself use a wall mount system. With the change in seasons comes contraction/expansion, so I would recommend you having a thoughtful way of leveling this system. It’s easy for anyone who hasn’t/doesn’t live with a wall mount to advocate for it and "they’re done". My initial recommendation took into consideration your (self-made) table as a major factor in any recommendations. @toddverrone ’s recommendations are a mix of what I recommended to him, (that he now uses) and what he has read, (that he does not currently use (to my knowledge). I think he thanked me by saying something like... "you need to either quit drinking or get laid" Is this the guy you want to guide you for any future upgrades??. Be careful/mindful of who you choose to deal with? ( Just because you don’t readily experience any "foot-fall" issues does not necessarily exempt you from being isolated from the earth’s crust movement...IE: the floor.) For me/in my world, this type of issue is what I refer to as addressing the "basics". I’m out. Good luck! |
@slaw your knowledge was very helpful in setting up my spring platform. I also utilized a lot of info from @geoffkait and others. There was much good info on the isolation thread a while back, and I appreciate you contributing to it. My point in saying you need to drink less coffee or get laid, was that you’ve been popping into posts like this and laying out some knowledge, then getting upset that people aren’t instantly acknowledging your brilliance and jumping up and doing exactly what you say. It’s not like you came over to my house and set things up. You shared info. Good info. But I still gathered other info, selected materials, made plans, built and adjusted my platform on my own. You’re acting like you did all this for me and I’m ungrateful. I acknowledge your help. And I appreciate it, as I’ve said before. But you need to stop acting like you are the grand master of isolation and we all need to hang on your every word and offer endless flowing praise at every opportunity. If you keep that up, you’ll be know for being a-- rather than a knowledgeable member whose advice is sought. |
@toddverrone, Apparently, most view me as "an a--’ anyway, so I have nothing to lose? If you are really being honest, you view me this way, so don’t try and say, some may view me this way in the future. When I post, I come from a position of confidence by way of my own personal issues that I’ve had ongoing and found effective ways of dealing with. Your position started from a point of view you chose not to be honest about. Get real, dude! I think my passion is greater than most that would lead some as yourself to feel this way. The fact is/was, you were never grateful, until I brought this fact up. Let’s get to the topic at hand. Your post to noromance reads like you are an authority on wall mount systems? Are you? Have you ever used one? If so, what meaningful recommendations are/can you pass on to noromance? Let’s start here, alright? |
"With a wall mount system comes other problems...". Absolutely correct. I have used one with great success and also experienced horrible failure in two different houses. The latter was due to excessive vibration transmitted through the walls even though the wall mounted was secured firmly to the home’s support studs. Following eliminate of vibration from external sources comes the frontier of draining and eliminating vibration and resonance produced by and within the turntable rig itself. This requires a completely different approach IME. "Soft isolation" approaches trap these vibrations and resonances within the component by eliminating the earth vibration ground. Need an approach that wicks away the vibration/resonance from the TT rig and then dissipates it. Dave |
When I receive the slate plinth for the AudioGrail 401 in the coming month, I’ll try it on a wall (reinforced concrete basement pour), on the concrete floor (4"), on the oak table, and on a light metal Linn style stand. My intention is to spike and tight everything possibly on granite slab. East Coast-not many tremors! I’ll also try maple, springs and sorbothane for the hell of it. I’ll report back. [Edit: Maybe also the sandbox as suggested by @islandmandan for whom I have respect.] Thanks all. |
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I think I’ve earned the right to ask, @toddverrone..where are your experiences regarding wall mount TT systems? I asked this earlier.............. You tried to discredit me for my passion/knowledge in my posts. Now, the shoe is on the other foot? When it was the other way, I responded. Where are you? Give me a break. |
I am getting my gear together to head out on a beautiful fall day to do some rock climbing.. For the love of God, slaw, let it go. I am not pretending to be an authority. I did not add 'coffee' recently. You can't edit posts after 45 min.. I have never used a wall mount. I am simply passing on info I have gathered from others. If you look back at the isolation thread, ages ago, you'll see I thank you there as well. And I never said I think you're an ass. Though we are heading in that direction. I simply said that your confrontational manner and insistence that everything is all about you will lead to that perception, which will take away from actually being able to share knowledge in a meaningful way. Half of the message is how it's delivered.. I will add that concrete walls and floors will at least negate the need to worry about keeping the shelf level due to the expansion/contraction of wooden structures. |
Let’s stay focused here: no one said a wall shelf would be the end to all vibration issues. I certainly didn’t say that. My recommendation of a wall shelf had to do with having less stuff between the speakers, helping to improve sound, which is a well established concept that I do have familiarity with. So maybe more careful reading of the whole thread would lead to less strife. Looking forward to your findings, noromance. And yeah, we are a crazy lot. Happy Sunday all! |
Taking you at your word "now"...... You "now" make a distinction... (this comes from my prying you to make some sort of meaning from your past posts)... of me being "confrontational", without your acknowledgement of any personal experience regarding your "recommendations" to others to how "their" systems should be. Yet, You now acknowledge you have no prior experience with wall mounts. But you recommended a wall mount. Right? Why? I would never recommend ANY product that I never used or had experience with. You did. Why? You now inject a new (move), now to say you're getting ready to go out... You now say "I'm being confrontational". Interesting? This was how I felt about your responses, a long time ago. Yet, I dealt with it. You seem to have a "bag" of excuses to bring out when necessary?/ We are still waiting on your "previous posts regarding our recommendation of using a wall mount", and your experiences as such. When you get back from your rock climbing, maybe you'll have thought of a good enough answer. You now subscribe to my post regarding the expansion/contraction of walls...only after I posted it. Be safe! |
@toddveronne, You, my friend, are what I see as the "worst" of what should be looked highly upon here! I think about "newbies" looking at us. I think about people trying their best to get into this hobby, hoping for "sound' wisdom" from years-long posters. Yet, you, undermine the very foundation of these principles!! Shame on you!!!! |
Wall shelves (interior brick wall first floor) never worked for my Linn LP12 and Rega decks. The sound always felt grounded. I live on a main road and I suspect that the wall itself was transmitting a fair degree of vibration itself. On the other hand a small light rigid wooden table made my cheap $50 flimsy plastic turntable (glued stylus) sound ridiculously close to the above mentioned decks! The sound was big with a good sense of ease about it. With young kids in the house I just gave up on vinyl entirely largely because of these issues. I think the main point to bear in mind is that we want to decouple, not isolate via spikes etc. In fact some of the extreme high end decks feature advanced tech which totally decouples them via magnets or air suspension. Hmm, does anyone have friends in NASA who could help up us solve these issues once and for all? Google? Apple? I heard that Steve Jobs was a vinyl man... |
As someone mentioned earlier there's some great information on the Townshend Audio site. Well worth a watch and thanks to all concerned https://youtu.be/OZxi1oZfvDA |