Support table or shelf for turntable

The Apollo Wt2se or the Wt-1 wall mounted turntable shelf. The 2se has 2 shelves, in the event you want to place a phono preamp/sut below turntable. The wt-1 is a single shelf, of which I own, silver with oak shelf. They are both absolutely built like tanks.
https://www.hifix.co.uk/apollo-wt2se-twin-shelf-turntable-support

Fun to reread this old thread from 2017. After all that, I ended up with the slate-plinthed 401 on springs. The whole lot on 3" thick maple across concrete blocks.

Good stuff whart. All my speakers are dipoles (original Quads, Magneplanars, Eminent Technology LFT's), and I have been dealing with their backwave for years. But imo that wave is of less concern that is the vibration coming up into a turntable from below, the very low frequencies. That is true even if the table is not just out-of-line with the speaker sound, but even in a different room from them. A Minus K is on my to-buy list!

@noromance props for the Quads. Have owned my pair, recently restored, since 1973.
I had a plinth like yours that was custom made in 1973 for my then new SP-10 turntable by Mel Shilling, an old time Philly audiophile who ran a shop called Music & Sound. Thing rang like a wooden bell. I kept it at a remove from the speakers, behind an alcove wall and used no special audio furniture or isolation devices at the time--there really wasn’t as much available to audiophiles though savvy DIY types may have known more. One aspect of the Quad is the dipole radiation pattern, so though your table is behind the speakers, it’s getting acoustics waves from the back of the speaker.
As to isolation, I’ve had issues with the last two houses I’ve owned, both restored, period houses with wooden floors. I was able, in the NY system, to mass load a very heavy mahogany prayer table by using chunks of sorbothane under the table legs; on top of that sat the table and HRS platform for it, which weighs 231 lbs. The prayer table was probably a couple hundred pounds. I still had footfall issues, but the table was outside of the line of fire of the speakers, in what amounted to a large,room-sized alcove.
In my new "old" place in Texas, i had a structural engineer visit for other reasons, and asked him to tell me if there was some way to wall mount 231 lbs worth of table. He didn’t care so much about the weight or mass of the table, but said the way the house was built-- all wood, including wood slat walls, they were moving, and not a secure mounting point to eliminate vibration and footfalls. I wound up buying a big Minus K. Not a bargain, but it made me a believer. There is another company that produces similar isolation devices as components- Newport?, apart from the usual suspects like Vibraplane, Herzan, etc.
One possibility -- if you change the plinth before investing in any spendy isolation products, and get the turntable out of the line of fire of the speaker forward or rear wave, you may escape without additional cost.

Whoa! Hey, leave me out of your petty disputes. Note to self - A biology major thinks I’m weird. That’s weird in itself.

I guess the pursuit of audio satisfaction can be stressful (time and money). It often leads to disappointment and desperation.

The great thing about forums is that we know we are not suffering alone. We can even begin to laugh together.

I'd be the first to admit that I spent decades ignoring good advice, and I'm probably still doing it.

At least I can take consolation in knowing that I can enjoy all my 3 systems. From the full on Tannoy Berkeley's, Rega RS1s, JVC tube/wood cone speaker mini system and last but certainly not least, my Sony CMT-CQ1 micro. 

Not everyone's cup of tea but my best attempt to extract max tonal density from HiFi. That's the key I think, knowing what pushes all the buttons in your head.

Its a labour of love, and love is a strange thing.

Also, slaw can get downright mean. Geoff just gets weird. Definitely different peeps

@slaw hi. I hope you've had a great day. I spent the day in the Ozark mountains, helping coach and organize a middle and high school mountain bike race. I've had no reception since I posted those humorous retorts to your posts this morning. So, any posts removed (mine and yours) were removed by a moderator with absolutely no input or requests from me. 

My freshman son took 4th place in this race and 5th overall for this, his first season. So proud!

It's guys like him that have ruined these forums.  Very interesting that he's one of the few that Geoff agreed with...on anything.  Are they the same person?

Keep it classy, slaw.

@slaw 

Get a grip, man. With every post you seem a bit more unhinged.

Is it OK for me to use Audiogon's (lame) policy to have posts removed that might expose one's truth?

Sadly, @toddveronne cannot handle the truth.

@toddveronne,

Had several posts that were very enlightening removed.

Not because of profanity, not because of anything other that they exposed him for what he is.

@toddveronne,

Look at my partial inventory of used/ items/ I use on a regular basis on my profile that I added just for you.

@toddveronne,

I read in another thread that you have a tv screen in the middle of your speakers. Nuf' said!

I guess his next move will be to try and gain sympathy? Don't fall for it.

Me too Kenny, and my SACD player as well. They're about $375 for a set of three, so it'll take a while. I'm starting with the sources and speakers & subs. I would still love a comparison of the Townshend Pod to the IsoAcoustics GAIA.

I used the Townshend Isolation Bars under my subs that killed the mechanical feedback coming through my floor and up my rack into my turntable. Before, a loud oscillating wobble sound, but after the Bars, nothing. I am pretty sure that the mechanical feedback, plus whatever other seismic pollution is also coming up my front wall as shown in the video link above.

Putting your turntable on a wall is definitely going to be an improvement over suspended floors. My daughter who's an architect with zero audio experience, told me that there is a lot going on in my front (bearing) wall. This was after I had the idea to tie my rack to the front wall for extra stability.

This makes, placing your turntable in another room on another wall a reasonable solution if that's what you can do. For me, I'm working towards adding isolation pods to my TT, amps, line stage, and phono stage.
Kenny

I've had good success cheaply using springs under my components if they have a very rigid/flat chassis. Otherwise, I've been using cutting boards and putting the component on the board. 

Getting the spring ratings correct is the hardest part and it's not that difficult. Plus, springs cost approximately $1 each, so I just purchase a few load ranges/sizes each time I order.

Next, I'd like to try platforms combining two different materials, such as wood and granite. Or two layers of granite...  

I believe that isolation from the environment is important in audio, (as it is in engineering / photography / quantum physics etc). 

With turntables you can also get all kinds of internal resonances generated by the deck itself.  We/the manufacturer can try to damp down resonant peaks generated mostly by the bearing, motor and the stylus / vinyl interface. This is why springs (damped/undamped) are often preferred to sorbothane in decks where isolation seems critical in high performance. Springs can isolate further (< 10 HZ ) than sorbothane. As can air bladder systems.

With loudspeakers we can often get massive internal pressures in the box itself (big smile from the open baffle fans). These pressures do nothing to help the cone do its job. No matter how much we tighten everything down, or increase the panel thickness we seem to merely add to the problem by shuffling the resonances around. Usually into the critical midband where these resonances can be most annoying. This noise often gets worse and worse at high volumes where its is almost as loud as the music. 

Its encouraging to see more and more manufacturers starting to tackle these issues, and not just the high end stuff. Even a no nonsense company like ATC acknowledged these issues by changing the shape of their cabinets.

And Slaw, I just went back and re-read all your attacks on me after my last post. Man, you're a handful, aren't you? 
You're basically telling me that if I'm not listening to my system at every opportunity, if I'm not trying everything I suggest, then I shouldn't contribute..
You are rather aggressive with me, no? 

What exactly did I suggest that was incorrect? Am I leading people astray?
Doubtful.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder that I didn't thank you endlessly in the first thread we interacted on. If I have slighted you in some real way, please let me know and I'd be happy to apologize. I'm not a big fan of animosity.

Even if you don't have fault lines under you, even if you live on Australia, one of the most geologically dead places on the Earth, there are still seismic movements as the crust rides atop the mantel, as large trucks rumble down highways, as industry does its thing. The Earth is a noisy orb.

cd318,

My current view is a TT’s support system that can handle all of the earth’s forces and then, the room demands, the natural opposing forces within the room, the acoustic feedback is more important than the TT design. Frankly, how the room acoustics tame certain, mainly, low frequencies are of invaluable support to a TTs performance.

For if all of the above is addressed, most any TT will work well. There maybe a few acceptions.

To the OP, brick mortor, I assume is the same for cinder blocks...have contents that allow for ’movement’....IE: it is formulated to be somewhat flexible. Then I ask myself why? You could say to yourself, this is pretty 'extreme'? Just remember, TT's are very 'extremely' sensitive reproducers.

Happy Listening.

Managing resonances is probably 90% of turntable design (speed issues the other 10). I couldn't get my Linn LP12 to stay in perfect tune so I abandoned vinyl as a result. I did learn quite a bit about setting it up but in the end gave up on the wall option, and it was my only option at the time.

In hindsight it probably did sound very good, but occasionally it could sound great.

To this day I believe that a well designed suspension is the way to go for sonic freedom. Thanks, Ed Villchur! Unfortunately I was able to find a Pink Triangle or Alphason Sonata etc

I remain sceptical about non suspended decks but I haven't heard the latest Regas. Its just that life moves on, and I don't have the time or energy to constantly have to adjust my setup. Besides, my wife thinks I'm strange enough already! How I envy those of you who have audio loving partners!

I agree about the Sorbothane. Even though it seems like SUCH a good idea. Even though it appears to be the right material for audio applications it just doesn’t sound good. At least I never found a place it sounded good. I found plenty of places it sounded bad. There are other similar looking materials out there, usually billed as "viscoelastic" that DO work, so don’t give up yet.

@cd318,

You had me until you recommended trying sorbothane. While it does damp vibrations, it is at the expense of dynamics and subtle cues and all of the little things that enhance one’s listening experience.

I was getting ready to post my current experience. As I stated earlier, I use a wall mount. Mine has several ways in which I can easily adjust it. This can be a nightmare or a listener’s friend. It all depends on how ’in tuner’ one is with what’s going on.

In my part of the country, I’m experiencing 25 degree temperature swings every day. This results in how I hear music and having to adjust my wall mount accordingly. My situation is extreme as opposed to the OP’s in that I have the 2"X6" wall construction, but I believe it should not be overlooked.

I meant to say that, as stated earlier, I'm on the east coast too. There are a few major fault lines running underneath us.

Yes its an intriguing subject, the isolation/ control of vibration, and how it applies to audio. The good vibration is the movement of the speaker cone, and the bad is everything else. Or is it?

Like the ongoing debates over cables, analogue/digital etc,  there is no consensus regarding loudspeaker isolation. Some believe in spikes, some go for isolating feet, or inner tubes, or sorbothane, and some don't believe its necessary at all.

My guess is that it all depends upon how big the problem is and how far did the manufacturer address the problem.

Some turntables such as the highly engineered (and highly priced) Continuum Caliburn featured a floating design decoupled from the main stand.

As far as loudspeakers go, Harbeth have their brilliant 'thin wall' design and unlike many others do not believe in remorselessly strengthening cabinet walls and tightening their drive units in order to suppress resonance. They would rather direct resonance to dissipate into the low frequencies where it is rendered inaudible. Thus preserving the all important midrange. I imagine Harbeths and the Caliburn would not require much more in the way of isolation.

Can we really say that of everything else? Given that sorbothane is well damped and can isolate down to 10HZ, and is relatively inexpensive, I think its worth a go in an attempt to maximise performance. Especially if your system sounds a bit thick or muddy.

Do not discount the effect, seemingly unnoticeable changes to your (wall-mount) TT mount/support and how they can dramatically affect your listening experience!

@cd318,

Thanks for posting the link to the video I mentioned above. You make it So easy.

I only hope, everyone watches this!

As someone mentioned earlier there's some great information on the Townshend Audio site. Well worth a watch and thanks to all concerned

https://youtu.be/OZxi1oZfvDA

Hmmmmm?

Decouple?

Sounds familiar?

Actually, I have two family members that have worked for/do work for NASA. This is not an issue. The issue seems to be those that purport to be experienced, having some influence on others!

Wall shelves (interior brick wall first floor) never worked for my Linn LP12 and Rega decks. The sound always felt grounded.
I live on a main road and I suspect that the wall itself was transmitting a fair degree of vibration itself.

On the other hand a small light rigid wooden table made my cheap $50 flimsy plastic turntable (glued stylus) sound ridiculously close to the above mentioned decks! The sound was big with a good sense of ease about it. With young kids in the house I just gave up on vinyl entirely largely because of these issues.

I think the main point to bear in mind is that we want to decouple, not isolate via spikes etc. In fact some of the extreme high end decks feature advanced tech which totally decouples them via magnets or air suspension.

Hmm, does anyone have friends in NASA who could help up us solve these issues once and for all? Google? Apple? I heard that Steve Jobs was a vinyl man...

@toddverrone,

While you're out "climbing/hiking" and such, I'm here listening.

That says a lot, doesn't it?

@toddveronne,

You, my friend, are what I see as the "worst" of what should be looked highly upon here!

I think about "newbies" looking at us. I think about people trying their best to get into this hobby, hoping for "sound' wisdom" from years-long posters.

Yet, you, undermine the very foundation of these principles!!

Shame on you!!!!

Taking you at your word "now"......

You "now" make a distinction... (this comes from my prying you to make some sort of meaning from your past posts)... of me being "confrontational", without your acknowledgement of any personal experience regarding your "recommendations" to others to how "their" systems should be. Yet, You now acknowledge you have no prior experience with wall mounts. But you recommended a wall mount. Right? Why? I would never recommend ANY product that I never used or had experience with.  You did. Why?

You now inject a  new (move), now to say you're getting ready to go out...

You now say "I'm being confrontational". Interesting? This was how I felt about your responses, a long time ago. Yet, I dealt with it.

You seem to have a "bag" of excuses to bring out when necessary?/

We are still waiting on your "previous posts regarding our recommendation of using a wall mount", and your experiences as such.

When you get back from your rock climbing, maybe you'll have thought of a good enough answer.

You now subscribe to my post regarding the expansion/contraction of walls...only after I posted it.

Be safe!

Let’s stay focused here: no one said a wall shelf would be the end to all vibration issues. I certainly didn’t say that. My recommendation of a wall shelf had to do with having less stuff between the speakers, helping to improve sound, which is a well established concept that I do have familiarity with. So maybe more careful reading of the whole thread would lead to less strife.

Looking forward to your findings, noromance.

And yeah, we are a crazy lot. Happy Sunday all!

I am getting my gear together to head out on a beautiful fall day to do some rock climbing..

For the love of God, slaw, let it go. I am not pretending to be an authority. I did not add 'coffee' recently. You can't edit posts after 45 min.. I have never used a wall mount. I am simply passing on info I have gathered from others. If you look back at the isolation thread, ages ago, you'll see I thank you there as well. And I never said I think you're an ass. Though we are heading in that direction. I simply said that your confrontational manner and insistence that everything is all about you will lead to that perception, which will take away from actually being able to share knowledge in a meaningful way. Half of the message is how it's delivered..

I will add that concrete walls and floors will at least negate the need to worry about keeping the shelf level due to the expansion/contraction of wooden structures. 

I think I’ve earned the right to ask, @toddverrone..where are your experiences regarding wall mount TT systems?

I asked this earlier.............. You tried to discredit me for my passion/knowledge in my posts.

Now, the shoe is on the other foot? When it was the other way, I responded.

Where are you?

Give me a break.

I was telling my wife about the conversation and she said if we are this concerned about subsonic tremors, then we are certifiable!

"East Coast- not many tremors!",

While I have an issue with that, as I live on the east coast and have experienced many, ..this is about more subtle vibrations that aren't readily noticed by us humans, but ARE by our beloved music transducers.

Good luck!

When I receive the slate plinth for the AudioGrail 401 in the coming month, I’ll try it on a wall (reinforced concrete basement pour), on the concrete floor (4"), on the oak table, and on a light metal Linn style stand. My intention is to spike and tight everything possibly on granite slab. East Coast-not many tremors!
I’ll also try maple, springs and sorbothane for the hell of it. I’ll report back. [Edit: Maybe also the sandbox as suggested by @islandmandan for whom I have respect.] Thanks all.

@toddverrone,

Are you getting it now?

"With a wall mount system comes other problems...". Absolutely correct. I have used one with great success and also experienced horrible failure in two different houses. The latter was due to excessive vibration transmitted through the walls even though the wall mounted was secured firmly to the home’s support studs.

Following eliminate of vibration from external sources comes the frontier of draining and eliminating vibration and resonance produced by and within the turntable rig itself. This requires a completely different approach IME. "Soft isolation" approaches trap these vibrations and resonances within the component by eliminating the earth vibration ground. Need an approach that wicks away the vibration/resonance from the TT rig and then dissipates it.

Dave

Right, cement floors actually don't buy you that much since the entire structure of the house or whatever is moving right along with the surface of the Earth. And since the Earth's surface is moving like a wave on the ocean there are six count em! directions that vibration can travel.