Suggestions for higher efficiency speakers

Had a chance to work on some Klipsch KPT-904's this past week. The next iteration of the KPT-456's mentioned above with a different horn but still the same bass bin. 105db efficient and with a footprint a bit larger than a Cornwall. They play anything effortlessly and precisely and you have the best seat in the house. These 2" throat horns with good drivers for mid and high ranges are just ten times what the smaller ones are.

" If talking about professional speakers why don't mention Altecs 604 and 605 "
 I don't know about those but I have had VOTT 1234 and A-7's and the A-7's are very nice and not thirsty for watts. Big though.
 @phusis,  Interesting you mentioning that. On the Klipsch forum about six years ago pro was a dirty word and the veneer guys would gang up on us for the heresy of pro gear. Today after enough people became curious enough to actually try what we were talking about this is no longer true and the commercial speakers are sought after.

The audio community seems to be fairly diverse, and I don't understand why anyone would feel "tricked" by those unwilling to strive for "macro parameters," which, by the way, would be a great name for a band. Lower powered  tube amps into efficient speakers, class D or mighty A/B power into anything from di-pole/bi-pole stuff to maxi metal boxed 400 lb monsters or mini monitors with swarms of subs...room treatments, drug to brain treatments, $11,000 phono cartridge treatments (to yourself...after all, you deserve it), faithful followers of "magic" tweaks, how much "macro" does one need? 

... My main gripe is the pro stuff is dismissed by way to many who have never heard them and have a bias against them because they were told they were bad. Not because they listened and decided they were bad. IF you have heard them all and make a decision based upon that that's one thing I can respect.

I meet very few who do make the time to listen though and I think it is a shame for so much uninformed reasoning to be so prevalent. 

@mahlman --

I can relate to this, and I would agree. Let's face it - we're up against a lot here; a whole industry and an established hifi-community that for decades has created and nurtured a "paradigm" or accepted way-of-thinking into the reproduction of music in a domestic environment. Within restrictions that field is diverse, but, by and large - from my chair - it's the same record played over and over again, year after year (although they would like to trick us into believing the cover changes). I've had enough of the swooning over this so-called "development" into further refinement and polarization of the market, and would rather see the striving for macro parameters where physics have its say, meat and potato wise - and contrary to what many believe that's not necessarily excluding refinement.  

If talking about professional speakers why don't mention Altecs 604 and 605.
They wery easy to drive. They work good in midsized room.
They are point source speakers as result a very good sounstage.
Thay don't have high frequencies and bass extention but the have great defenition from mid bass to upper midrange. They have great midrange, tone and musicality.
And if you like old records from 50 and 60. The mosts of them were prduced in studios that used these monitors. Even, in Abbey Road studio when Beatles were recorded used Altec 605 monitors .

Oh I can agree with we have different preferences and you are an evangelist for your flavor as I am for mine. I mostly want people to listen to my suggestions before making choices they spend money on because a fully informed buyer who has listened to speakers in question is able to make a good choice. My main gripe is the pro stuff is dismissed by way to many who have never heard them and have a bias against them because they were told they were bad. Not because they listened and decided they were bad. IF you have heard them all and make a decision based upon that that's one thing I can respect.

  I meet very few who do make the time to listen though and I think it is a shame for so much uninformed reasoning to be so prevalent.

I hear the inside of a large horn, in a typical living room environment, and I prefer to be further from them, when listening. What do YOU not understand ? You are like so many other people here......that folks need to like, what you like.....The advantage I have had for 50 years, is that I was a consultant to listeners, with all kinds of equipment, speakers, listening rooms, musical preferences, and of course, a wide range of budgets. No sense in arguing. I happen to know, that each listener is an INDIVIDUAL...you do not accept this, nor understand this. A Vandersteen owner might not like a Klipsch, of whatever product line it is. Not everyone will like the same thing. I love horns, all day long, but each horn, and yes I have heard many pro horns, have certain places where they sound best, TO ME...You just don’t get it, mahlman....Enjoy your journey, as I will enjoy mine......MrD.

A group of us met with Roy Delgado in October at the Klipsch factory for a teaching session on why PW Klipsch did what he did and why Roy does what he does regarding speaker design. One of the sessions had the new Heresy, a vast improvement, the new Forte, some improvement, the Cornwall 4, an unbelievable improvement and last the newest La Scala which was basically the same old same old but very pretty.
  The speaker that really ruled the roost though was that yummy Jubilee and we heard all of them in Roy's sound lab. Same room same everything with the speakers being played one after the other and pro gear ruled that day.


   Roy's comment on pro gear vs home owner gear as he stated himself on the klipsch forum goes like this.  11-24-18  "

Definitely not helping to make your point. It’s obvious that you did not understand what I wrote. In case you don’t know, Paul’s four points; high efficiency, low distortion, controlled directivity, and controlled freq response. That’s what I am for and as long as I can help it, that will be the case. Will a Cornwall sound good in a typical living room?  Yep. Will a ki396, 904 or even a grand system......you betcha. You gain headroom, headroom, headroom. Did I mention headroom?  There is no compromise on the acoustic goals but only with what physics and economics limits us. Like bass extension and price points. So before you categorically decide that pro speakers are lacking the attributes of a home system, go listen to one. And now I really hope you get it.......meanwhile back to bass fishing.

"

I have not heard the CW IV yet, but don’t have to. I posted a thread back in September, stating they will be an incredible product. I know the in’s and out’s of all the Heritage, as, you know the in’s and out’s of the pro’s.......We are on the same page, except for one or two things......I do feel, many larger pro speakers, are simply made, and sound best, at a further listening distance, and this is what my ears are saying, and prefer. A personal thing. I know my Lascala’s ( my 7th pair ), were designed by PWK, for live, stage performance, but do not feel the same about them. They do great with near field listening. I am also very aware of the disconnect with horn hybrids, that slight lack of coherence between the subs and the horns. I do question your comment about things sounding good in a small 12 X 12 room. I do not like the sound of small square rooms, and try to avoid them, like the plague. A 9 X 11 room would be better, even though it is smaller. IME. All good though.....Enjoy ! MrD.

I have no serious don't buy complaints about vintage or Heritage and listen to every set I fix for a while before selling them off. But if pure sound quality is the main criteria the Pro stuff wins hands down. Most of the time the topic of what sounds the best is what is discussed and I have an opinion there many might disagree with. Theexception to this is the older Cornwalls which I think sound very boxy and after only two sets never bought any more.

The problem is those who have not actually heard better pro gear don’t know how good it is. It was funny to see expressions on peoples faces when I had sets of KPT-456’s for sale as they heard them for the first time. I had a really sweet Chorus I with upgraded crossovers and a MAHL tweeter in there. Normally they would have sold quick. I also had the KPT-456’s at the time ready to go and I play whatever I have on hand for Craigslist people that come over. They would hear the Chorus which they came there for and then ask "what is THAT?". So with a grin on my face I would tell them and then play them. The Chorus was $1,200 and the 456’s were $1500 and that set of Chorus speakers sold four sets of KPT-456’s before they left.

That set of 456’s was 18" deep, 27.75" wide and 55.75" tall. So little more than a Cornwall on footprint although much taller. Total cubic inch footprint less than a La Scala. 800 watts output on bass bin and 75 watts on the 2" horn top and unbelievable fidelity. It beats ALL the Heritage including the KHorn and this is why I talk so much about pro. At any volume these just sounded much bigger and better. My normal listening level by the way is about 80db. When I want to sit next to the 32’ organ pipes it gets louder. No veneer and scant WAF and I get all that I just don’t have to abide by that.

Heritage and Vintage Klipsch is the real deal compared to the rest of the market in value for dollar spent I believe. Once you step up to Klipsch Pro though it is a different ball game.
Considering the OP’s original inquiry here is something to think about. The KPT-456 is 104DB efficient and the newer version of the same which is the KPT-904 is 105db efficient.

Way beyond the OP’s amount to spend but have you heard the Cornwall IV yet?

If you can stretch your budget a bit (or find used), at around $3,000 a pair, the Tekton Double Impacts and Rethm Bhaava (built in active woofer) are good sounding speakers that will permit the use of low-powered amps.  Low power limits the field considerably, and very few of the candidates are low-cost.  

I like low-powered SET amps (I own one), but, even though they are usually very simple amps, they require special, and somewhat expensive, output transformers.  The decent sounding ones don't come cheap.

If you are interested in what SET amps can do, go to a retailer or an audio show and listen first before shopping.  To some extent, the touted "magic" is an exaggeration--good SET amps sound great, but, that is also the case with good pushpull and output transformerless ((ORL) amps.  If you like your current speakers, but you are looking for something different to spice things up, consider an OTL amp.  OTL's are very vivid and lively sounding and will be a bigger change in sound from your Jolida than any SEt amp would be.

mahlman......I should have been more specific.....I am in agreement with you about each model you mentioned. It is the larger Klipsch Cinema and Pro speakers you are always referring to that I made that statement. Read any of your tutorial........you have constantly down played any Klipsch Heritage model, comparing them to those large behemoths used on stage you love so much, even mentioning them here. You have even put down the Klipschorn in many of your posts. " I am " the largest Heritage fan, here, on the ’Gon, and know as much about them as you do. You lead with the " behemoths ", no doubt. I do appreciate you changing over to understanding the consumers here. And it is funny, how, I find the Lascala to be the best out of all of them, and you find them to be the worst. Simply shows the diversity of listeners, even with the same brand.....Enjoy ! MrD.

" Klipsch models mahlman recommends, are simply, too large, for a typical living space, both acoustically, and visually, ime and, imo. "
  OK I can understand for some space and esthetics will have as much say as sound quality or even more at times. The problem here is bang for the buck and staying under 2G. All of the following can be had used in good condition for under 2G.

The footprint of the Chorus is 39" T, 18.5"W and 15.5"D
The Heresy is 23.8"T, 15.5"W, 13.25"D
The Forte is 35.375"T, 16.5"W, 12.25"D
The Cornwall is 35.75"T, 25.375"W, 15.5"D
The La Scala is 35.5"T, 23.75"W, 24.5"T
  Of them all the LS is the space hog with the CW next in line. I have seen all of the above in small rooms as small as say 12' x 12' and they all work fine. So say the the people who have bought some from me and invited me over later to hear theis setup.

  There is another option if you are handy and that is to make a set of Super Heresy's and if you type in Super Heresy's at the Klipsch forum you will find all kinds of information on how to take a set of $400 type I Heresy's and make them into something very close to the Heresy IV. I have heard the Heresy IV and have a set of the Super Heresy's in my shop right now and they are very close in sound with both being quite remarkable for their size and much better than all the other Heresy's.
  The idea the Chorus speaker is too big and would "overpower" a room is just plain nonsense and no one I know that has these thinks this is the case. I have sold more of these to seriously ill men living by themselves in small apartments who really don't have gobs of space than any other type of Klipsch. They get them because superb music is one of the very few things they can enjoy in life without physical effort, they can afford them and they simply fit in any space.

   I get speakers and fix them up and sell them so I have actual experience with them and a variety of customers who have bought them and used them in all sizes of rooms. I don't mean just one or two it has sailed past perhaps 100 + sets now. Today in my shop there are two sets of  Heresy's, two sets of La Scalas, and of course some of my favorite Pro gear speakers which don't get mentioned here because they are pretty big. I am hands on and you can choose to believe it or not I don't care. I do how ever like to spare people the path of try this and try that before you find something you like because years and $$$ can surely be wasted before you are happy.
  I also have my personal preferences based on hearing many sets from beginning to end where I get them in and recap them and check drivers and for loose wires and the rest of the potential problems so I know what they normally sound like used. Then I also know what they sound like when fully restored or modified in various ways like in replacing the old tweeters with new ones. I know Klipsch Vintage and Heritage speakers far more than just having bought a set or having sold NIB sets.

  OP if you do not make the time to research these and go hear them and go to the Klipsch forum and ask what people who live and breathe Klipsch think of sizes of speakers VS room size and what they are capable of doing you are making a big mistake. You CAN find people over there who will invite you over for a listen in the real world and not a showroom and they will not be too far away. Don't take my word or any one else's here but take it as potential worthwhile advice and then go verify IN PERSON. Talk is cheap and the web is full of wannabe sound sages.

" they sound as close to live music as I’ve ever had at home ". This was stated, just today, by another Heresy III owner, on another thread, here on the ’Gon. Anyone who knows me, knows my opinions ( all positive ) about Klipsch Heritage, and, their competition. Altec A7s, and some of the Klipsch models mahlman recommends, are simply, too large, for a typical living space, both acoustically, and visually, ime and, imo. I listened to Loggins and Messina ( their 2nd album, on CD...Columbia CK 31748 ) this afternoon, and let me tell you............................well, you can all guess.............I do own upgraded and modified Heresy 2s, am familiar with the 3s, but listen through my upgraded and modified Lascalas......Enjoy ! MrD.

Note the Heresy IV has been listed with specs on the Klipsch site and among other changes in driver and crossover design, it now has a larger ported cabinet and is rated to 48hz as opposed to the previous model’s 58hz. Note the III does have output below 58 hz of course, but it really does drop off pretty fast at 58 based on a test CD I use.

After auditioning them before buying a pair a couple of years ago, I was pleasantly surprised by how Klipsch Heresy IIIs sound having not paid much attention to the brand over the years...now they might be cheaper since that model is being upgraded. In any case, they're a steal relative to most brands (I've owned lots of speakers over the years) and the efficiency is just frosting on that cake. I do use a couple of REL subs as I like to control bass without digital helpers, but the new Heresy IV might not need subs so much as it's ported to get more low end. Fan up dude!

Decware Zen and Omega Super 3 XRS will put you right around 2k. Synergy is reportedly pretty good per the Omega thread on Audio Circle. I was leaning toward this direction before taking up a small PP instead of a SET.

jsautter, I did pay close attention, read it a few times - very informative!  I've enjoyed his posts for years.  Not sold on SET amps, but would like to experiment.  But I see that getting the proper speakers may prove difficult in my price range.  I would like to hear some atmasphere gear as well, but again that pesky budget comes into play.  I am open to push pull types.  Should have pulled the trigger on some local Quicksilver mid-monos a while back....

You should pay attention to what atma-sphere has posted. Several friends and I conducted an experiment in which we compared a pair of parallel 300B SETs (18 watts/channel) to a VAC push-pull Phi 200, a Mastersound 32B amplifier and a pair of Atma-sphere M-60s. Speaker used were DeVore O/96s. An entire day was spent comparing these amps and the clear and universal winner were the Atma-spheres. Last were the 300B amps which displayed exactly the type of behavior outlined in the above thread. I can only suggest SETs for extremely efficient speakers with a high and stable impedance. This comparison really opened out collective eyes to the limitations of many single ended designs. Funny thing is you really dont notice these undesirable characteristics until you compare directly with a far superior amp. 

Audio Archon has Tektons I believe. 

Thanks all for the suggestions.  Obviously I have a lot of homework to do.  Unfortunately, seems like the only brand I can readily audition will be the Klipsch.  Even in a big burg like Chicago.  Somewhere to start I guess.  If anyone local knows differently by all means tell me where. 

Looking forward to Axpona 2020.  Hopefully some of the suggestions will be there.  Not the best audition spaces I know....

Vlad builds the audio mirror reflection monoblocks, which may be worth
investigating

These are awesome sounding, and awesome powerful amps (rated 45-50 watts, tho can do peaks of 90-100 watts). Mine drive my 87dB speakers with authority. Granted, it helps that there are no crossovers on the mids and only an L-pad on the tweeters, and don’t dip much below 6 ohms (5.6 ohms minimum?). In case you don't go highly sensitive speakers.

pkatsuleas OP

Suggestions for higher efficiency speakers

Interested in trying lower watt tube SET or class A amps.

Look for >90db speakers with active bass that have a nice benign load 6-8ohms with as little -phase angle possible.
That way your not taxing the SET amp with trying to do bass, which they’re not the best at doing anyway.
If you don’t mind coloration’s which sets have anyway, look at horns also

Cheers George

Cube Nenuphar or Cube Mini Nenuphar’s.

Lol.  Thanks Larry, but way out of my league!  This happens quite often with posts I read.  I know, best intentions....  

Admittedly, I need to beef up on my Klipsch auditioning with low power tubes.  

I will look into the Tekton Perfect SET.  Thanks.

BTW, hooked up the Gallo 3.1 to my Jolida today and sounds very good.  Softer than the McCormack all around, but bass still very good.  Soundstage a bit deeper.  A very pleasant listen and plays louder than the Snells without distortion.  Very nice indeed!

pkatsuleas you may have heard some Klipsch models over the years but did you hear them being powered by the sort of amp you're now interested in?

My vintage Klipschorns react differently to each amp I use with them - 12W Mullard, 20W Weston Troubadour and my 2.5W Miniwatt. All are valve amps.

Solid state works but sounds a bit edgy to my ears but having said that, a friends Peachtree iNova really rocks them with some real finesse.

It seems that the less power presented to them results in better sound imo.
I also have Zu Soul Superflys in a 2nd system and the results seem to be the same alttough the Mullard, with 16Ohm outputs seems to pair best with them.
You won't go wrong with the Miniwatt. Minimal outlay and maximum fun! Highly recommended.

Good luck!

" Thanks for the great replies. I’ve heard a few Klipsch models over the years, never interested me enough to even get the names. One was the big Cornwalls though. Impressive but wasn’t my cup of tea. Granted, I have not heard any of their newer celebrated models. I will be checking them out. "
Until the Cornwall IV came out I was right there with you. Big boomy box. I have to say these db numbers being tossed around are not good at all. I am a Klipsch guy and each time I venture out I am disappointed so my experience is different than others here. I normally never have speakers with less than 101db and some of the used pro gear I have tops 105db. Nothing works hard to produce great sound and you never have to push drivers hard for large volume when you want it. Excursion is way less than many and small wattage amps make for prodigious CLEAN sound levels as nothing gets pushed too hard.
I am not a fan of buying new anything as I figure it is like a car and the second you drive it off the lot there goes half your money. So I look for things like Chorus speakers, which are better than Cornwalls, have nice crisp bass with no boomy box problems. Fortes are not nearly as efficient pegging in at 96 or 97db depending on version I or II.
The secret to good sound with legacy Klipsch though is to recap the crossovers. I have had some sour sounding speakers but I knew what they could sound like and bought them anyway. A fresh set of caps and all the magic is back for the next 30 years. See one of the things about Klipsch is they last as long as you will unless damaged or abused except caps and those make a big difference. Chances are if you heard some you did not like the needing recap issue was there. I am not a fan of La Scalas and if I were looking in your price range I would get a set of Chorus I’s first choice and Chorus II second choice. Chorus I is front ported and does not care where you place it to work right. The II has a passive in the back so it does care where you place it.

One of the nice things about Klipsch test runs is if you don’t like it after having it for a while or run up on something better if you bought them right you will get all your money back out and there are ready buyers out there all the time.
A good Chorus I goes for around $1,000 today + $40 in caps and you are good to go. I listen to pipe organ, cello, rock, blues, bagpipes, and lots of other things and I am never let down by the true to life music I hear. 30 years from now parts will still be out there for Klipsch and not many other speakers can boast this Klipsch longevity which exists for a reason.
Altec VOTT A-7’s are also really nice if you can find them and WAF and space are not problems..

There is a pair of Tekton Perfect Set on Audiogon for 1200 bones. 

Hmm thats only 18 times over the OPs  budget. Lol

Paradigm Persona’s. 93% efficient.

I too have a Cary Audio SLI-80 SIgnature amp with some cap upgrades (bought the amp on this site - not dissapointed with my decision). Look up - some good deals between $2,500-$3,000. I am also using simple REL sub woofer paired with Fritz Carbon 7 MK II speakers. Although only 87dB, they have been shown playing at shows with Audio Note One amps (Ota SE 1- watt amp) - see link from past Audigon site:  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-fritz-carrera-be-speakers .

Enjoy the trip :-) 

Check out Cube audio speakers range. High sensitivity, Single drivers without a crossover. The tech has been refined so minimal sacrifice on bass department (which is a single driver typical design limitation). These speakers are pure magic! Maybe one of the smaller ones will be within budget.

I have enjoyed great music through dual-concentric Coherent speakers from Canada and single driver Omega speakers from Connecticut.  IMO both of these manufacturers offer several models, all wonderful.  Honestly these apeakers do almost everything right.  One of them of bound to float your boat.

If you like horns Klipsch Heritage speakers (Heresy, Forte, La Scala, Cornwall) can be driven with just about any amp.  I had a pair of Belle Klipschs once and drove them from a 0.75W amp using 71A triodes.  Sounded fantastic.

I was Cary dealer in the early 90's and had the CAD-300SE mono's in house. These are great amps and wish I still had them. They where paired with AudioVector speakers.

Emerald Physics KCIIs are without peer in this  price range. And they are running a special on a few pairs. Hurry, don't hesitate

Zu Audio and  Pure Audio Project.

I have Snell Type D at around 87 dB and Gallo 3.1 at around 88. Not exactly inefficient but could be better.

No- this is **exactly** what inefficient looks like (its at the upper end of inefficient- almost moderate). These are inappropriate speakers to use with an SET.

This is what you are up against: To get full bandwidth from an SET in general 7-8 watts is about the maximum before the difficulties of building a truly full-range output transformer begins to strain the idea of it being 'hifi'. Generally speaking this usually means you are limited to a 300b or the like for maximum power. Now of course there are higher powered SETs out there but usually the tradeoff is limited bass for more power because of the output transformer.
The next problem is that most SETs for good reasons don't employ feedback to minimize distortion. The result is two-fold: first this helps them have distortion at low power that is unmeasurable (the 'good reason' and the source of the 'inner detail' for which SETs are so well known). Second, distortion starts to take off at about 20-25% of full power. Initially the distortion is really only on transients which are common in music; since the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, the result is a 'dynamic' quality that other amps seem to lack. You really don't want to invoke this aspect of the amplifier! You simply won't be hearing everything it has to offer.
So the result is you need a really efficient speaker to take advantage of an SET. In smaller rooms this might be a minimum of 96-97dB 1 watt/1 meter, in a bigger room this might be 103dB minimum. And that is assuming you have 7 watts full power!

Regarding the Reference 3A MM de Capo, measurements of the BE version of that speaker performed by the National Research Council of Canada, as published by SoundStageNetwork.com, show a sensitivity of only 86.7 db.

Regards,
-- Al

Vintage Altecs (605, 604, Valencia, 19,...) are very high efficiency speakers.
You can find some of them on second hand market for less then $2K.
Klipsch Heresy also suite your requirements.
JBL are not  very high efficiency speakers but higher than average in term of sensitivity.

I agree that Klipish and JBL are usually high efficient speakers. I would add ZU Audio to the list one can usually find them used on this site and other comparable sites. Two speakers in a cabinet and no crossover involved. PM me if you have specific questions.

Omega Loudspeakers will fit the bill and some come in nicely under your budget. Btw they are super musical 😊

What have you listened to in the Klipsch line ups past and present?

JBL A170. $500/pr. Read HR's review in the November Stereophile!

Ref 3a mm de capo...by FAR

Reference 3A or Spatials. Both highly effecient speakers that pair well with low wattage amps.
Also, you may want to try Decware Speakers. Talk to Steve Deckert and he'll tell you what you need - no more, no less.

Yes I would like to hear the Tektons one of these days.  Still out of my budget unfortunately.  

BTW, happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate!

Tekton sound great with low power  tubes. I would love a pair of the mew klipsch cornwalls but alas 6k.