IMO, a well executed subwoofer/mains system is very hard to beat. However, the "well-executed" part is the trick. All of the best sub implementations that I've heard use digital bass management and/or room correction and a lot of folks here won't go that way on principle.
If that approach bothers you, I'd agree that you might want to pass on adding a subwoofer. BTW, I'd never add a sub to Verity speakers (I own P/Es), unless you plan to ditch the bass pedestal units. The Parsifal design is terrific, and I love mine, but IME they are not designed for flat, extended bass response. Adding a sub without some EQ in the mid-bass would almost surely be a mess and, even with EQ, the octave to octave balance of the speaker would be substantially altered. |
Yes I did try different places from the wall. I am a person who likes to test. Testing means; trying many different things.
The nice thing about testing is collecting information. This you use for the best endresult.
When I put it closer to the wall the dynamics are stronger. I will loose too much drive when I put it more away from the wall. The pro measurement gives you the freedom to put it were you want to.
My low freq. unit is made from ceramics. This one is a lot lighter compared to the material of the DD18.
That's why you have a much faster response. This is easily to hear in the level of integration.
Velodyne should use lighter material for a much faster response. Because they have every part for a good subwoofer. The only limitation is their timing.
The new level I have with my subwoofer is that you feel more energy. And I am not only talking about low freq. Also in freq above 80 hz you feel more energy.
The Audioquest Wild Dog and the Stillpoinst togheter give you a much higher level in speed. You need to hear it before you understand what it makes special and new. |
Bo1972: did you try positioning the subs further out from the wall, closer to the listener position, to get better timing? I have my Velodyne DD18 on a low trolley. When I want the best performance I wheel it out, one foot or so in front of the speakers. |
I use the crossover of the Monitor Audio PLW-15 itself. Without Audyssey Pro this subwoofer is very difficult to control
I even can choose between 6, 12, 18 and 24 db/octave
24 give the best sound. |
Bo1972,
What do tou use as active crossover, and how is your system set up? I'm looking into this right now. Actually posted a new thread on the Tech Talk section. |
Because most of all subwoofers do not have a response what is fast enough. This is why many people are only interested in bigger floorstanders. I had the same thoughts till 2007. |
Bo, please go away.
You have no credibility, nothing to add, and nothing but bluster and me me me me me.
I is your favorite word. |
I've had subs for years and just can't get it right. They sit there unused most of the time. A floorstander that can do deep enough bass is so much more satisfying. |
The first time I heard the Velodyne DD18 I was amazed by the roomcorrection system of the sub. He had 2 of them. There was no acoustic problem in the low freq. But the thing I found out was that the timing with the loudspeakers (Revel) was not ideal. This is caused by the lack of speed in response.
Depth is a very important part for the absolute sound. I understand that people like horn speaker for there speed and ability to play loud.
I also can play at extreme levels. With Pro roomacoustic measurement I can play as loud as I want to. My speakers have a spl of 118 db. For a not horn speaker this is quite extreme for a small speaker. But I have an extreme deep and wide stage with a physical intimate stage to die for. |
Bol1972,
Regarding the way a speaker of any type presents music, I don't feel that imaging, which mine do well (depth much less so) is not the source of perceived "intimacy". Spectral balance and tonal density are more impotant in that regard to me. |
Thanks to everybody for these responses. There is a lot to think about. I guess the only reasonable option would be to sample some sub's and see how they work. However, I don't know if a dealer would let me try something out on such a basis. |
Bo1972, my experience is different. My Audiokinesis Dream Maker horn speakers give me lots of intimate image. Although they aren't nearfield speakers but excel even more at the huge concert level. And they give a wide listening sweet spot.
Also, I own a Velodyne DD18 and know that, yes, it can be pushed forwards (1-2 feet in front of the main speakers) to get some added transient coherence and depth, but this is not practical in my room, and I get good results also closer to the wall, running the sub in 90 degrees phase. |
At shows The horn loudspeakers Always gave a less intimate stage than how I create an intimate stage. Even when I was sitting in the middle. My image is a lot more stable and blacks are superior to any horn loudspeaker I ever heard on a show. The level of physical 3D stage ( blacks are here a part from) is not that precise.
With the hornspeakers it is more difficult to have a good image when you sit at different places. |
"Horn loudspeakers are not able to give a physical inimate image. Even when people would gave me 100 dollar each day I would not listen to this in my house."
Bol1972,
I respect your experience and believe that you have achieved good system results through experimentation, but the above statement is certainly not true. I have owned many speakers, and horn speakers have provided me with a more intimate experience than any other type of speaker I have owned. I believe there are others reading this who will have a similar opinion. |
The limitation of Velodyne subwoofers is their response. They need to use lighter and faster material. Even that it can play loud and has a lot of dynamics. It is still not fast enough. With a few simple stereo test this comes to the surface quite easy. |
Every single tool has his limitations. Horn loudspeakers are not able to give a physical inimate image. Even when people would gave me 100 dollar each day I would not listen to this in my house.
You can go on and on about everything! |
I also tried numerous sub set ups and was never quite satisfied with the synergy to the main speakers. I'm sure there are Agon members much smarter than I that figure out the correct components, set up....
I went a different route. I had a pair of 3-way speakers built with Usher drivers. Uses one 8 inch woofer. Overall very happy with the speakers but found the bass to be a bit lite for some of the rock music I listen to.
I worked closely with the speaker builder tossing some ideas around.
I had him build a second pair of speakers - passive subs using the same 8 inch Usher woofer. The crossover has a very tapered slope and three cross over points. On the back side of the speaker I have three positive taps, one for each cross over point. I drive these speakers from the second set of preamp outs then through an Emotiva control freak (attenuator)- then to a separate Emotiva XPA-200 amplifer.
I love this set up since it provides close to the flexibility of a subwoofer set up but without synergy concerns. Main speakers run full range through a separate amp.
The passive sub cross over's slope is so gentle it ends up filling out the entire bass region, not just the lowest octave. When dialed in correctly the blend is seamless. So much better than any subwoofer set up I've used. The whole set up was cheaper versus the pricey Velodyne I purchased previous to this set up. Gives me flexibility for different source material too. |
The conventional subwoofer is full of massive compromise in design -overly small cabinet, drivers with massive excursion, requiring huge power and room boundary reinforcement to produce bass. The excursion causes poor transient response extra distortion and reduction of bass detail. The massive power yields thermal compression due to voice coil heating. Having to place so sub can have room boundary reinforcement again causes issue with time arrival, integration etc. Great for high profit but not the best way to generate low frequencies. I myself prefer bass systems- towers, bass horns, IB bass etc over conventional cub sub. |
"What JM said. Subs rarely sound right and you are much better off with a well designed full range speaker"
These words I said for a long time as well. I never thought that I could be statified and even owning a subwoofer for stereo use.
So what did change my opinion?
When I did test subwoofers in all those years ( 16 years of time) I was often not satisfied with the integration. There were Always music numbers were you could hear that the timing was not perfect. Everywhere I came ( shows and clients) I heard the same limitations. For a perfectionist there is no room for this. Why? Because I get irritated by every single limitation. It is Always my way of working to eliminate every single limitation in a set.
When I bought the Monitor Audio PLW-15 I understand directly that the response is a lot faster than most other subwoofer. The PLW-15 is a very difficult subwoofer to control.
Audyssey did solve the control problems I had with the PLW-15. You can have a very fast subwoofer, but this is no garantee for success.
Audyssey Pro gave me the freedom to control and make it fully integrated with the speakers. This is what I call stealth integration.
Purist Powercable and the new Audioquest Wild Dog pure silver subcable puts it even to a higher level.
But the remarks to use it to a higher freq. level did change it also a lot. These days I use it from 16hz till 140 hz. Blending goes to a new level. You need to hear it before you can believe it.
I had a few surround specialists and also different clients with highend sets who are amazed by the level of integration.
When I put it off you loose it all. When you use it till 140 hz the subwoofers has a much more important part in the overall sound.
I understand the thoughts of most people overhere about integration. But now stealth inegration is possible.
It is not easy to create, it did cost me many tests, time and thinking to create it. But now it is here. A few people in the audio business say; you have to do something with it. You have to let it hear to other people. I am thinking about a way to make it known. |
What JM said. Subs rarely sound right and you are much better off with a well designed full range speaker......if possible. I have tried perhaps a dozen and did everything known to man to blend them in, but in the end they hurt the music more than helped it.
I am sure it is possible to help the music more than hurt it, but that seems out of reach based on my experience anyway. |
I have a subwoofer, which I use for HT purposes. I have played with several subwoofers quite a few times over the last few decades, but I never could get one to blend seamlessly into a stereo system for music purposes. I have heard a couple of systems that have, but I have heard many more systems that have failed, but the owner does not know it. For me, I will leave the integrating of bass management to the seasoned speaker designer, and buy full range speakers, like your PO's, for music. |
In the past we did filter them till max 35-60. These days this part has changed a lot. After I got the attention to test it till 120 hz. I test it for the first time. When you use a subwoofer like mine ( low freq. unit is very fast and light ( ceramics) )you can use it a lot further.
I got even better results using it higher. Low freq. become touchable above 80hz. These days I use it till 140 hz. This gives the best endresults I even heard with subwoofers in general. Playing stereo voices and instruments also become more stable and physical.
This is possible cause of the accuracy of the measurement Audyssey Pro gave. And the use of a very thick Wild Dog pure silver subcable.
At the show were I was in 2013, people said: but your subwoofer is out. Many people were not familiar with this kind of integration.
Going back to the past were we sold most of the time REL subwoofers even with more expensive loudsprekers. It is a new world and a much higher level of integration. |
What's the expression, 'its complicated', and it is. Installed and set up properly, matched to the right pair of main speakers, it can add much to your enjoyment of music. Done poorly, it can spoil your existing sound, and make you much poorer. I've matched two subs to my ProAc 1SC's and have fully enjoyed the effect. Took a while to get the crossover right and positioning of the subs in the right place but it was well worth it. |
I have been using a sub for 20 years...and over that time have joyed getting a more and more seamless integration. the combination of my main speakers being upgraded to the point where the sub is now only playing 40hz and below plus the improved speed, quality of subs and their crossover software has made it a joy for me. The ambience, foundation deep underneath orchestral, live performances as well deep house/electronic is wonderful. Good luck. Good set up is a must...but for me, I will never take mine out. And more owners I know who have my speakers (Wilson X1/Grand Slamm) or the Alexandria's use them with subs than those owners I know who don't. |
Just think about what it means for someone to say that others shouldn't use a piece of equipment in their home system that they enjoy, and that improves the overall presentation to THEIR ears.
I personally don't think people should put hot fudge over ice cream...ice cream is delicious as it is, and hot fudge only adds unnecessary calories and sugar. And if it's too hot, it can cause the ice cream to melt prematurely. The extra 50 cents to 2 dollars it costs to add hot fudge could ultimately be spent on extra ice cream, or a bottle of water to wash the ice cream down. I've been eating ice cream for many years, so I have a lot of experience on the matter. You should listen to me, and never add hot fudge to your ice cream. |
I avoided subwoofers for 32 years and now have one. It works well for me in my particular situation but I wouldn't cry if some day I don't need one anymore. The less equipment the better. For now though, it integrated well for me. |
Good question, Elegal.
In my opinion, it depends on the system. If your main speakers are cones, add a cone subwoofer. If your main speakers are Magnepan, add a Magnepan sub. If your main speakers are ESL's, the Magnepan sub just might be fast enough. |
I just received my Parsifals last week. I thought they were bass shy initially too. But since the bass is back facing getting the distance right from the back wall makes all the difference. Inches too close and it's boomy, to far and it feels lacking.
Mine is now dialed in and the bass is absolutely standout! Full and well defined. It's been forcing me to play lots of jazz lately just to hear the string bass, vocals drums, etc. Listening to Dianne Krall now - just spooky realism. The staging is so perfect too I just close my eyes and its hard NOT to feel you're in the club with them.
Same thing with Miles Davis before that and Pink Floyd "The Final Cut" prior to that (ok it's not jazz but equally spooky realism).
The bass is suppose to be one of the most famous strengths of these speakers (and I see why). Placement from the back wall is key (along with supporting equipment).
Even side wall placement comes into play according to Verity. They were very helpful and patient over the phone and had some unusual tips. I can't imagine adding a sub would do anything but detract. |
Technique and time go on. Subwoofers are a lot faster these days. But also the roomacoustic systems have changed a lot. About 7 years ago I never thought that subwoofers would be fast enough to become one with the loudspeakers for stereo use. In the past my only interest were in big systems like the B&W 800Signature. ( which I owned)
These days it is another world. Audyssey Pro has changed my thoughts about subwoofers in general. Now I have a what I call; stealth integration with the loudspeakers. I never thought this could be achieved with a subwoofer.
I also use a pure silver Audioquest Wild Dog subcable. This one has taken it even to a new and higher level.
These day I cannot imagine not to use a subwoofer. Even for stereo use. I listen these days above 90% in stereo. |
Here's the truth: low frequencies are subject to cancellation and reinforcement by normal room boundaries, resulting in uneven bass. This is unavoidable with any large speaker capable of putting out low bass, in a normal-sized room. If you have large speakers and you want to hear accurate low bass, you need the subwoofer (preferably two) to fill in the frequencies that are being cancelled by the room interaction. However, the addition of the sub(s) could exacerbate the reinforcement problem. Fortunately this can be dealt with in several ways including room treatment, repositioning, or signal processing/equalization.
If on the other hand you are using smaller speakers, the addition of one or two subs will add the low frequencies that you are missing. |
This subject has been debated over and over. A review of the subject in the archives will reveal nearly endless varieties of opinion. Personally, I think anyone who issues blanket statements pro or con is oversimplifying the matter. That said, I personally feel if enough care is taken in setup, most quality subwoofers can add more than they subtract to speaker systems that lack ultimate bass extension. |
Of course that isn't always true, but there are certainly many people who consider it a must. As usual, it's a personal taste issue. |
