Hi folks. In the market again looking for a subwoofer...this is to complement my Focal Electra 1008Be with Hegel H160 setup. I was looking at JL E110 sub. Anything else I should be looking at? Also do the amps of these subs blow up frequently?
JL subs are bulletproof and easy to integrate because of the adjustments available including continuous phase. They also have flat frequency responses which also makes them music worthy because the avoid frequency peaks- one note wonder syndrome I have used their mobile subs and amplifiers for years and just recently tuned a JL D110 sub to perfection in my home system. My room response is flat from 20Hz through the crossover. They also tend to be equipped with generous amplifiers with lots of headroom. Reliability and quality is top notch.
For more output than the E15HP (and F15HP, with a slightly larger enclosure) provides via it’s single 15" driver and 600w amp, Rythmik currently also offers the F25, with twin 15" drivers each driven by it’s own 400w amp. The E15, F15, and F25 are all sealed designs. There is also the FV15HP, with a single 15 and 600w amp in a ported enclosure.
In development now and available later in the year are two new models featuring the new Rythmik 18" driver, one with a single driver the other with two, both in ported enclosures. A sub with two ported 18" woofers---can you imagine the output capability?! And with Rythmik’s famed Direct Servo-Feedback sound quality. A game changer no doubt.
But Rythmik (in conjunction with GR Research) already offers a game-changing sub---the OB/Dipole Sub. Not as much output as a "normal" sub, but with a sound quality totally unlike any normal sub, regardless of price. Two (or three) 12" woofers mounted in an Open Baffle H-frame and operated in dipole fashion. This sub redefines the term "stops on a dime". THE sub for any planar loudspeaker (ESL. magnetic-planar, ribbon), or other high-resolution design. Absolutely without a trace of overhang/overshoot/resonance, and exciting fewer room modes (the front-to-back but not side-to-side room dimension), a major contributor to the "room boom" often experienced when a sub or two are added to a high-performance system. The only OB/Dipole Servo-Feedback Subwoofer in the world!
Rythmik's are very musical and integrate well with the mains but depending on your room size, may not have enough weight/ punch. I had the E15hp. I currently use seaton Submersive hp+ master and slave sub. It's every bit as good as Rythmik sealed subs but a lot more potent in output, specially mid bass.
When comparing subs, the total system cost is important. For $4k do you get 1 sub, or a pair of subs and $1,500 worth of acoustic treatment and a high quality digital equalizer?
I've yet to see or hear a sub that is better in this regard than a Hsu.
For those looking for specmanship and independent reviews and I point you here:
For those looking to learn about subwoofer measurement and integration, I suggest the Room EQ Wizard forums will overwhelm you with information. :) Good luck.
Good point af32. A good way to filter the very low bass from your main speakers without going through a x/o is with the simple installation of a capacitor (the value of which can be determined from the formula available all over the 'net) on the input jacks of your power amp. That creates a 1st order-6dB/octave filter below whatever frequency you choose. Your speakers will be cleaner with the 20-40Hz octave rolled off, and your amp will have more power available for them with that octave removed from it's signal. Perfectionists have been bi-amping the original Quads this way for decades.
Don't EVER hook up your main speakers THROUGH a subwoofer - the sound will suffer.... let the speakers roll off naturally. Most of the filters in subwoofers are not that great to begin with and you are just adding another connection point and more speaker cables.
FWIW, I own Rythmiks and believe they are very good. I used to have REL Storm, and don't regret the change one bit. Rythmiks are very tight and I have them in a sealed cabinet, plus their servo seems to work really well. They also are very flexible setup-wise.
Are JL Fantom better? Most likely, as you would expect given the price difference. But two Rythmiks is better than one JL in my opinion.
I tried them with the full range speakers running full range and the subs supplementing the low end, also crossing over the mains with the Rythmiks plate XO, and currently with external digital crossovers and each step was an improvement.
The 12" is going to be enough. Yet I suggest going with the 15".
Hi ;I have had focal speakers different types for the last 15 years, also have 2 JL Audio E10 subs Seemless love them Just upgraded to Wilson Audio speakers waiting for them to arrive. And will keep the JL subs. Have had quite a few subs including Focal subs and you cant beat JL Audio for subs.
@bob_reynolds Good suggestion on the 2 way banana plug. I'll take a look at that. We ain't all that particular about things that don't make an audible difference. Exactly how stiff is that Belden 12 gauge? Not like coat hangers, I hope. I might need to make a 90 or 180 degree bend...but talking mid-length - not near an end, so the bend can be gradual. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
@spoutjack - I expect there will be 2 pairs of speaker level/high level inputs on the sub. A pair (+/-) for the left channel and a pair for the right. Check your sub mftr's. info. to confirm.
Thanks guys for all your inputs. However I still have one more question :) promise this would be the last.
So if I plan to just connect "ONE" sub for now. and if I still want to go with the high level inputs and not the pre-out from the sub how do I connect since there are two channels out there left and the right. Which one would I connect to?
Hello again Bob. I prefer banana plugs myself but that option is already taken at both the amp and the speaker terminals by the normal speaker wire. It’ll have to be spades/spades I think.
Should be able to wrangle a short length (3-5'?)of the Belden 10 gauge and get it to play nice. If it’s stiff enough, might even help keep it off the carpet.
Thanks for the input Bob. The only reason for wanting to keep the cables short was simply "tidiness"...cable management, if you will. Short will let me avoid having a lot of extra length laying around.
FWIW - am going to order a few feet of a Belden 5000 series 12 gauge from Blue Jeans Cable (along with some spade terminations).
oleschool - I did try using pre-outs from the pre-amp. I thought that would be the way to go. BUT when I experimented trying the high level inputs...connecting subs to amp - I immediately thought things sounded better hooked up that way. Go figure.
@spoutjack I hope the answers to the questions I've asked are helpful to you.
Ghosthouse, I would expect it to be perfectly fine to connect the subs to the speaker terminals instead of the amp terminals.
The only conceivable difference it might make that I can think of would be an **extremely** minor difference in the amount of "back-emf" from the speaker that might be received by sub. And if that were to have any audible significance at all (which I very much doubt), who knows, it might even be subjectively preferable.
Gents - took delivery of a pair of the above discussed SVS SB1000 subs. Currently running them using speaker level input from the amps. Running the loudspeakers themselves full range.
I'm using mono blocks now. In the future, I'll likely use an integrated that might be located 8 - 10' away from the subs. To keep cable runs short, can I connect the subs' high level inputs to the terminals of my speakers (located right next to the subs)? OR is it essential to connect the subs at the amp?
Another +1 for Hifiman5. I have had a pair of Vandy 2Wq subs in my system for about 8 years. I bought both of them used, and they have been trouble free. I did eventually upgrade to the battery-biased crossovers, which made a significant improvement in transparency. All I can say is that, once dialed in, and placed in corners (as per the design manifest), these subs produce deep, clean, musical bass in abundance. Best of all, they seamlessly blended with both my Vandersteen 1Cs (as you would expect), and my Ohm Walsh 2000s. I think I am set on the Ohms for good. However, if I ever upgrade my speakers, I will insist on speakers that will work with the 2Wq subs. They are in my system to stay. They are that good. Also I think they are one of the most underrated subs - or even pieces of audio gear in general - ever made.
@bob_reynolds Yes...thanks for confirming Bob. The SVS web site is indeed where I got the number I used. Expect I'll be talking to SVS next week...back and forth between an SV1000 or SV2000. Will try to remember to ask about that speaker level impedance value. The good news is, if a 2K Ohm value won't affect the power amps, a 200K value wouldn't either.
@almarg Very helpful. Thank you. I also took notes from your line level input discussion in reply to rbschauman’s "Help Wanted Bass" thread.
Regarding the true output impedance of my tube amps, unfortunately I’ve not seen info about damping factor in the mftr. specs. There’s not a lot of love for Stereophile in some quarters, but if you are fortunate enough to own a nice piece of gear they’ve reviewed, the measurements section is a great resource going forward.
BTW - I too was surprised about that speaker level impedance spec for the SVS SB1000. Double checked it. Best I can tell, barring a typo on their part, 2K Ohm is the value.
Ghosthouse, yes, putting a 2000 ohm load in parallel with the vastly lower impedance of a speaker would result in a change in the overall impedance seen by the amp that is certainly negligible. For example, if the speaker's impedance is 8 ohms the impedance of the parallel combination would be (8 x 2000)/(8 + 2000) = 7.968 ohms. Even if the amp has a relatively high output impedance that would result in a negligible change in the voltage it would apply to the speakers, and a negligible increase in the current and power it would have to deliver.
2000 ohms, BTW, is the lowest input impedance I can recall seeing for the speaker-level input of a powered sub.
Also BTW, in most cases the 4 and 8 ohm designations of tube amp output taps do NOT represent their output impedance, despite misleading wording in some manufacturer specs that would appear to indicate that they do. Those numbers represent the load impedance the tap is optimized to work into. The output impedance of the 8 ohm tap equals 8 ohms divided by the damping factor of that tap, assuming the damping factor spec is provided and is accurate, and the output impedance of the 4 ohm tap is roughly half that amount in most cases.
Most tube amps have output impedances in the area between a little under 1 ohm and perhaps 3 ohms or so, although there are some designs for which the output impedance can be higher.
@almarg - Al, in case of a formatting error to your name in the request above, I'm re-sending. If you would be so kind, please see my question there. Thanks in advance.
@almarg ...So if planning to run from the 4 or 8 ohm output taps of an amp into the speaker level connections of a powered sub and the input impedance here, as per the mftr. spec, is 2000 ohm (SVS for their SB1000), the output impedance of the amp would be 0.002 - 0004 of the sub's input impedance depending on the tap used. Do these values still qualify as insignificant fractions of the much-lower-than-100K-ohm SVS input impedance? I would think so, but not certain. Thanks for taking a look.
Rythmik allows you to audition any of their models in your system, and to return them if unsatisfied, paying only shipping. I would wager you wouldn’t return the F12---it has been found to blend seamlessly with Magneplanars, Quads, BG ribbons, OB’s, and with whatever speakers Sterling Sound Mastering in NYC has in their monitoring systems. Servo-Feedback design which left the twelve woofers in my Infinity RS-1b’s eating my pair of F15’s dust!
@spoutjack Did you try the E-110's before, and didn't like them? Or were you just avoiding them based on concerns of amp failure? I don't have any experience with the Rythmik, so it's hard to say. I think it's hard to go wrong with the JL's, but if you have the time and patience, there's lots of alternatives out there to try! Even better, buy both, and sell or return the one you like the least.
Also, regarding connecting the sub either line level or speaker level, I'd try both. I've heard arguments both for and against, the best is to try both and see which you like better. If you're using an integrated amp, speaker level inputs are almost a must (unless you're like me, and only use the subs for home theater / digital music).
thanks for the detailed post hifiman5. one quick question, wouldnt the
current on the speakers drop if you connect subs to them in parallel?
because current would decrease for parallely connected components right?
No, there would be no effect on the current delivered to the main speakers. When a powered sub is connected to the output of a power amplifier or integrated amplifier, what the amplifier is driving is the sub's amplifier, not the sub's driver, which means it is driving a very high impedance that will draw negligible current. The Vandersteen sub Hifiman5 referred to, for example, has a specified input impedance of more than 100,000 ohms.
A consequence of that, btw, is that the cables used to connect amp outputs to a sub that can accept speaker-level signals can be much narrower in gauge than typical speaker cables.
To address your question more generally, adding a load impedance in parallel with another load impedance will only affect the current delivered to the first impedance if the voltage across the paralleled impedances becomes different from what the voltage across the first impedance would have been in the absence of the second impedance. And that voltage will only change as a result of the addition of the second impedance if the effective output impedance of the component providing the current is high enough to be a significant fraction of the second impedance, or if the component is not capable of supplying the total amount of current that is drawn by the two loads in response to the voltage it provides.
Very few power amps or integrated amps have effective output impedances of more than a few ohms, and most solid state amps have effective output impedances of a tiny fraction of an ohm, those numbers obviously being insignificant fractions of 100,000 ohms. So none of this will be an issue with a powered sub.
Imo a decent sub in a treated room will perform better then a pricey one in a untreated room . Vandy subs are great but the setup can get costly . Its all in your court buddy
@jldouglas : thanks jldouglas. You think I should give E110's another chance and listen to them with my setup? I was leaning towards the Rythmik F12SE.
The Q control is very useful, but -1 for using amplifier outs. Gives you very little flexibility. I'd rather have control over the high pass and low pass.
The real issue subs face isn't the electronics or the speakers, its' the room. Using a miniDSP and proper room treatment this is straight forward.
@hifiman5 thanks for the detailed post hifiman5. one quick question, wouldnt the current on the speakers drop if you connect subs to them in parallel? because current would decrease for parallely connected components right?
I recently put together a system for my kitchen and decided on a Hsu VTF-1 MK II to go with a Cambridge cxa80, Schitt Gungnir multibit and Scansonic MB-1s. Because of not being able to do a straightforward placement of all components flexibility was going to be key. The options on the Hsu made fairly quick work without a lot of sub crawling and if it weren't a big black cube would be as invisible as its well blended sound. I'm impressed as hell for the $450 it cost.
If you are looking for musical truth, the Vandersteen approach of connecting the subwoofer with the assistance of a high pass filter directly to your amplifier's output, is a fine way to go. By feeding the subwoofers with the amplifier's signal mates the subs. sonic character to the sound of the rest of the system When set up properly, it should just sound like your speakers go lower with greater bass power. You don't "listen" to the subs. You listen to extended power response as if it's coming directly from your main speakers. I have two Vandersteen 2wq subs. which have adjustable level and "Q". So you can adjust the relative tautness of the subwoofer response. I recently traded in my Vandersteen 3A Signatures for Treo CTs. One of the first things I had to do to properly mate my two subwoofers with the Treos was to decrease their output level as the 3A's sensitivity was 89 db and the Treos 85 db. Just last evening I further tweaked that output level so the system is congruent.
If you are just looking for more bass, then there are much more affordable paths to follow. In the end, it depends on why you want the subs.
I don't think you could go very wrong with your original choice, the JL E-110's. I have the Focal Sopra No. 2's paired with dual JL F-112's, and it's a sublime combination. (My room's about 400 sq ft.) A single E-110 would probably be enough for your size room. You could always try it out, and add another if you're not totally happy with it.
My two F-112's have had no issues for the past year. The amp fuse on one did blow, because of a failure on my receiver's muting circuit. Even though it was no fault of the sub, JL covered the repair (which was really just replacing the fuse) without any complaints. I'm sure if you actually did have an amp failure, they'd take care of you. The overall quality of these subs seem great.
I don't have any experience with the SVS or HSU (I've heard the REL's, was in a totally different setup and room though). Do they sound as good as the JL's? Maybe. I think part of what you're buying with the JL is their reputation, and quality (built like a tank is the best way to describe it). The black gloss finish is good (not as nice as on my Sopra's), about the same as what you'd see on Velodyne subs.
Good luck, I'm sure you'll love the subs, no matter which brand you go with! I do strongly recommend to go with sealed, I've had bad experiences with non-sealed designs in the past (especially for music).
One vote for JL Audio Fathom. Continuous phase adjustment and auto EQ. Crucial to get it time aligned with mains. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/subwoofer-basics/?page=3 Otherwise, doesn't matter what make it is, it won't sound great. It is a shame how few sub setups are properly integrated.
Elac SUB 2070 sounds awesome! Opposed/vibration cancelling configuration, zero cabinet vibration, zero vibration transmitted to the floor. Effortless. :-)
Nobody mentioned sunfire or vanderstein . I have had alot of subs over the years( rel ,velodyne.sunfire,JL audio jbl and vandys never had a hsu personally, no opinion there ). I believe treament is a huge part of a room operating properly.I currently run one sub in my audio room ,2 in my ht room .If i was doing it again personnally i would rather have two 10" or even 8" then one 12" .But thats a whole new debate .lol good luck ..
I think for the size room you have a pair of really good Peerless sandwich cone 8 inchers would be good, I used them in my hybrid electrostatic cabinets ad they were wonderful
I had the 10" version with my B&Ws (in NHT Sw2Si cabinets and some extra bracing and stuffing, for years but recently found really rare B&W DM 16 woofers. These used the early 801 magnets, frames, and coils, but are 11 rather than 12 inches.
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