Subwoofer Advice

@navyachts About 3 feet, but do yourself a favor and be happy with your newly programmed MLs. Don't stress your finances. Save up and when you have more than enough, go for broke.

@mijostyn OK, I would have to sell the MLs first, then it looks like I would need to cough up another $5K for the 545s then another $4k for subs. I really don't know if there's any funds at this stage in my life to cough up. I could possibly downgrade my N200 streamer and my M1 DAC, that would help cover the upgrade to the new speakers....UGH!

How much room do the 545s need off the back wall. 

@navyachts If you really are attached to ESLs (I certainly am) The Sound Labs 545s give you 45 degrees of horizontal dispersion without curving the diaphragm which is a very non linear approach. This is why ML has to cross out of the ESL portion at 250 hz, to prevent the diaphragm from distorting. The 545 does not have this problem, but IMHO still benefits from crossing over to subwoofers at 100 Hz. You will get better bass, reduce Doppler distortion and greatly increase your headroom. 105 dB is attainable this way with the right amplifier, louder than anyone needs to go. If you were crazy and wanted more, go with 645s. If you want a full range line source which gives you a more powerful system with larger more life like imaging go with 645-8s which is what I use. These are 8 feet tall and have a terrible WAF. The 545s will sneak by. You will certainly notice more detail in bass instruments. The journey never ends. Most of us are damped by finances, but as soon as the money comes in 

@mijostyn OK sure, so how do you suggest I go about this process of getting a pair of Sound Lab 545s? I was hoping to be near the end of this journey, but I'm still open to suggestions!

@navyachts Yamaha NS 5000s? What you really need are a pair of Sound Labs 545s and Subwoofers. If you get the subwoofers for your MLs the switch will be easy.

@sounds_real_audio ok, thanks

Better doesn't always mean more expensive. I would ask a dealer and the check reviews of the speaker not the amp to see what amps seem to work...

@mijostyn Love Fourplay and Bob James, who occasionally comes to town. I always wanted to see Chuck Leob, but with his passing, I won't be seeing him or Fourplay any time soon. 

@helomech Me too, V1.

I took my wife on a speaker demo tour for our 10th anniversary (yes, she is an awesome sport!) here around the Pacific Northwest and listened to numerous pairs of speakers and narrowed it down to Kef R11s and Legacy Signature SEs. I had both at my house and returned/sold them.

Having had Martin Logan ESLs in the past, I stuck my neck out and purchased the 13As unheard although I listen to a pair of the 11As on the anniversary tour and didn't like them at all, but kept my fingers crossed on the 13As. So, after all that, I don't think I'll be changing speakers anytime soon, although I would love to hear the Yamaha's NS-5000's, but nothing local, as usual. 

Just realized you have the Coda No.8

I had the V1 version of that amplifier.

FWIW, my Yamaha A-S2100 provides more grunt in the lowest octave of bass. IDK how it does so but it does. 

@navyachts That is quite the combo, Alice in Chains and Herb Albert. The Grunge seems to be serious bad luck. There were suicides in all three bands. Probably a good thing to stick with Herb Albert. You should try Fourplay, Bob James band, Smooth Jazz at it's best. 

@big_greg Turn up the volume on your SVS subs with a bass heavy number and put your hand on the subwoofer. That vibration you feel is distortion you are hearing. Using two opposing drivers to cancel out Newtonian forces is one way to limit that vibration you feel. With proper enclosure construction and balanced force design you can create a subwoofer that does not vibrate at all excepting for the driver's cone  https://imgur.com/gallery/building-resonance-free-subwoofers-dOTF3cS

Sounds like a great time! I love Jazz Alley! 

@big_greg 

Hmm, well I've been there a couple of times just not sure when I will be again.

I was just in Seattle this past weekend for a triple header. The wife and I took in the Jimi Hendrix memorial, dropped into the Central Saloon (birthplace of Grunge - first performances by Nirvana, Alice in Chains & Soundgarden). Then finished off the day with an awesome show put on by Herb Albert over at Jazz Alley.

Maybe if you're ever up this way you could pop in and give me some advice.

Thanks for your kind offer though!

@navyachts I'm in Olympia. For some reason I thought you might be in Bremerton.

@sounds_real_audio My Coda 8 was $6,800. How much better do you think I need to go?

Try a better amplifier 

@big_greg OK and yes, I live in Ferndale, WA. Whereabouts are you?

That sounds like bad advice.  There are a number of different subwoofers that should work fine in your space.  A smallish sealed sub (or better - 2) will fill in the bottom end and shouldn't create issues if set up correctly. 

Are you in Washington?  I have 4 systems in different rooms with different speakers.  Some are SVS.  None of them are "balanced force" and they all sound great.  I'd be happy to have you visit and listen.

@rbull11 @bottomzone I was originally interested in the SVS micros, but I have since been advised that subs using balance forced s would be most beneficial in my circumstance. Kinda limits my choices and stretches my budget at present, so I’m going to try and live with what I have at this point. (see my recent post Subwoofer Update).

Thank you.

I use 1 svs micro 3000 and I placed it under the foot of my bed and can't be seen.  It adds all the bass I need with my AE 509's. It gives me that little extra I was looking for.

JL Audio subs, while not cheap, can't be touched and their new Dominion subs are a steal for the price!! Also, REL(I have one in my system) makes great subs.

@wolf_garcia ok, thank you!

I was joking with the "exactly like mine" comment to point out that every listening space is utterly different. Bass is bass, and my suggestion is to get a couple of used RELs (that are returnable perhaps) as the high level input from the power amp is cool...no long runs of signal cable required. For 2K you can easily get 2 new RELs if you desire a warranty. My RELs are from a much older "Q" line..a Q150e 150 watt front firing (I own 2 of these, one is part of my video system), and a Q108MK2 100 watt downfiring. Had 'em for years, they work perfectly, cost about 200 bucks each used.

@wolf_garcia @mijostyn recommended to me to get balance forced subs, so I don't think anyone who manufacturers these subs offer a down firing unit.

Not sure if my listening space and gear is exactly like yours as you don't have that info posted in your profile. 

Thanks for the info though!

Bass goes everywhere...it simply cannot be directional by nature, and note that many subs (including a couple of mine) have down facing drivers...you could suspend subs from the ceiling (ha) but if bass gets to your ears, it's getting everywhere else. I have 2 RELs in my main rig and after reading something about WIlson suggesting the Loki's placement as having its voice coil in line with the bass drivers in the mains (makes sense), I adjusted a sub (front firing) to be in line with that suggestion. The other sub is off to the right...a standing wave defeater. This works and I suggest this setup to anybody with a listening space and gear EXACTLY like mine. 

There you go. Do exactly what I said with the deep bass boost. You have to dive in. Just keep the volume low and you can not hurt anything. There is also nothing you can't undo. 

@mijostyn Anthem finally got back to me on this. It seems that adjustments can be made with the ML Perfect Bass Kit by enabling the Professional Mode. I'm not sure if I'll know what I'm doing once in the program, but at least it's a start. Here is their response:

There are many YouTube videos that exist to aid you with the ARC process, however these tend to be more product specific. You are welcome to share your ARC file so that we may take a look and make the adjustments you are looking for. Be advised flattening the response curve does usually result in "lower" bass, but there are ways to adjust this such as using the Room Gain and Deep Bass Boost settings in ARC Genesis. 

@wolf_garcia maybe I could "Float" the subs?

If a sub is getting its sound into the room then sound is also getting into the floor. Unless you have no floor.

@navyachts

Re the Dynaudio 18s

I want to make sure we ARE talking about the same item. The 18s is very compact in fact and is $1799 at Sweetwater:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TrueBass18S--dynaudio-18s-dual-9.5-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer

The dual opposed design results in zero vibration being transmitted through the floor.

@peterf6 awesome, thanks, I'll give it a try.

Easy way to check phase on sheffield labs test record, track 22: https://tidal.com/album/11648127?u

@saboros LOL...The Spires were in a different house (similar room though)

(As an experiment, you could reverse the speaker cable on one of the speakers and see how it sounds.)

Might give it a try!

Were the Spires in a different position or room?

(As an experiment, you could reverse the speaker cable on one of the speakers and see how it sounds.)

@peterf6 please see my response to @saboros. The whole room seems to be a null.

FYI: Seems to sound better with the ARC turned off (after correction).

+1 on @saboros : did you check the phase? Are you sitting in a room null instead of a good bass node?  Good luck!

The location of the mains has zero to do with the subs unless there's a phase issue. Position the mains where they sound good and then do the same with the subs. Done.

@vetsc5 +1, thanks again 

ps;

Hey  navyacht,  I failed to mention that new Hsu woofers are well within the price range that you mentioned in your post.  Hope this is helpful info. Btw Hsu is pronounced "Shoe".  That's easy:)

@vetsc5 ok, thank you, I will check in with the Doc!

Hello navyachts,

Just a suggestion that you may wish to speak to Dr. Poh Ser Hsu, owner/designer,builder of Hsu Research located in Anaheim, Ca. He has been designing and building subs for over 30 years and earned his Phd in engineering at MIT.   It's still a family business and when I call  Dr. Hsu usually is the one answering the phone.  A very humble genius who is passionate about his work. I have two of his units and they are the bomb.  I'm not sure if it is permitted for me to enter the website on this post but you can easily find him on the internet by searching for Hsu subwoofers.  Give him call. 

@dctom  thanks, looks like I have lots of options!

Hi I have a pair of Martin Logan ESL 11A speakers and use them with 2x Rel 510 subs sited along side the ESLs. This arrangement works really well in my medium sized room.

@mijostyn my first "Steep" learning curve is not to just jump into using DSP, but to first understand these graphs (Hz/dB & assorted terms/jargon), what they mean and how to apply/adjust them accordingly. Hopefully I'll live long enough to do so!

So, you like it better now? I have a new preamp processor and I have been using DSP since 1996. It still took me some god awful number of trials to get things working reasonably well. Part of the problem is I have a strange setup. Anyway, The manual is not always right because there is no standard system/room. It is a steep learning curve and trial and error are frequently the only way forward. 

I got my ML PBK working and it automatically adjusted something. I started a new thread call Subwoofer Advice 2 to generate some new comment on the results.

Hopefully the PDF link works and you all can read it OK - u2 @mijostyn 

@helomech Thanks, the Elacs look interesting as well. They list at $3,800 though. Any tips on which dealers might let these go for $2K?

https://altitudoaudio.ca/products/varro-ds1000-gb-10-dual-reference-powered-subwoofer

In the meantime I did email Rythmik and I'm waiting to hear back.

I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I’m hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I’ll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

I don’t have much experience with balanced/opposing woofer subs, but I have heard a number of full range speakers that employ the same principle (KEF for example). I can’t say I was particularly impressed with their bass, but that might have been due to a multitude of other factors. To my ears, the opposing woofer designs help to mitigate audible cabinet resonances, but don’t make the bass sound any tighter. At least that was the case with those full range speakers and the small KEF subs I’ve experienced. 

If you’re set on that design type, I would heavily consider the Elac Varro Dual Reference subs. They seem better built than the comparable KEF offerings. With a typical dealer discount they can probably be bought for $2K/each.

I was considering upgrading to the similarly priced REL S/510SX subs. But the Elac is an attractive proposition because it allows real-time adjustment with the built in app. That would make integration much easier I think.

@oliver_reid Thanks Oliver, they look good, but they are a tad big and $2400 ea (plus EGF @ BB)

Dynaudio make great subwoofers

their 18s duall 9.5 in model  is inexpensive