Hey everyone. I’m the OP and wanted to let everyone know that after many months of research and thinking and reading every single reply here, I took the plunge and went with an Aurelic G2.1 and Cardas USB to my existing PS Audio DSD. Play Qobuz via Aurelic Lightning app on my iPad. I’m incredulous on how well it compares to my cd collection played thru my PSAudio DMP. Honestly, comparing same tracks I cannot tell the difference in SQ. I cannot say one is better than the other. I may hear a little more detail on CDs but not entirely convinced that I am. Regardless, having the ability to explore new music almost without limit and not sacrificing quality is a game changer.
Streaming for beginner
I have a PS Audio front end-- DMP disc player and DirectSteam DAC. Very happy with the resolution and performance, especially from my redbook cd collection. For those familiar with the DSD, it is upgradable via a network bridge card to become a dedicated streamer. When I bought this DAC, I was looking ahead to an eventual migration to streaming.
I also have a Spotify account, that currently only serves me as a companion to my iPhone during walks and exercise.
My question: assume my goal is to stream for convenience, simplicity, and achieve audio quality that equals or surpasses that of redbook cd’s. I am not looking to purchase music or download it for storage. What am I missing? I also have a dedicated iPad that can serve as the interface to the DAC/Streamer. Spotify also claims that streaming in high resolution is available on my account. Do I need anything else? Am I oversimplifying this?
I am a beginner when it comes to streaming, so please answer in simple terms since I will not be familiar with a lot of the services and components mentioned elsewhere in these forums. In fact, confusing enough for me that it is forcing me to ask here.
I also have a Spotify account, that currently only serves me as a companion to my iPhone during walks and exercise.
My question: assume my goal is to stream for convenience, simplicity, and achieve audio quality that equals or surpasses that of redbook cd’s. I am not looking to purchase music or download it for storage. What am I missing? I also have a dedicated iPad that can serve as the interface to the DAC/Streamer. Spotify also claims that streaming in high resolution is available on my account. Do I need anything else? Am I oversimplifying this?
I am a beginner when it comes to streaming, so please answer in simple terms since I will not be familiar with a lot of the services and components mentioned elsewhere in these forums. In fact, confusing enough for me that it is forcing me to ask here.
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Bluesound Node 2i is a great unit that sounds pretty good through its digital out into a good DAC. The Bluesound App can be used on any platform and its easy to use... im streaming Qobuz right now through my Bluesound Vault 2i which is feeding a RME adi-2 DAC and it sounds awesome .... could I hear a difference with a $3000 streaming front end? I don't know, but this Vault 2 sounds pretty good to me as my digital front end so to speak |
Lots of good discussion here for sure. I'm a musician, playing trumpet 50 years. Was a professional on the road in the 80's for 6 years. I have a BA in Music 1974. I direct and conduct an 18 pc Jazz big band. I've played in community orchestras and brass bands. My point, Live music is my reference point. This is not boasting or chest pounding. I really enjoy my little system. I'm a student of streaming too. Have not invested in a dedicated streamer, yet. Maybe will, maybe not. I've listen to Tidal on and off for some years. This year I tried Qobuz and very quickly heard the difference, so + 1 for Q. I own the Project S2, even with the MQA capability, I felt Qobuz just sounded better. I've own a few dac's, sold them only to move on and try others. I may move on from the S2 at some point. I feel it's doing a very good job. I sold hi end audio 91-97. Got to play with alot of equipment. This too has added to my brains storage of auditory experiences. I'm a big believer in everything matters. Change 1 component, cables, power cords,etc I can discern the differences. Not going to go down that rabbit hole here LOL. I' started with and am using Jriver. I see it's a Roon discussion too. I'd like to try Roon, I ve read being audio only, it's easier to work with and many like the 'sound ' of it vs Jriver. If the price was closer to Jriver I'd try it. I use a Windows 10 Dell laptop. I ripped a few hundred CDs onto a SSD drive. I have a Schiit Wryd with 2 if their USB cables. The Wryd does a nice job. Btw, I've read the Schiit usb cable is made for them by Straight Wire, If you buy the equivalent from S.W it looks like double or triple the cost from what I can see. These USB cables from Schiit are real sleepers IMHO. Sidebar" I bought the iFi power for the S2. Read good feedback on it. I dont want to spring for their RPS it's close to 300. I'll see how the ipower works out. I'm listening to Amazon HD for a month. It's cheaper than Q or Tidal. I'll decide after 30 days if I'll keep the HD extra charge or not. I agree Spotify is easy to work with, and agree it will never equal the other two. Amazon HD is the sleeper in the 3. I do agree with many here Spotify is perfectly fine for them and how they listen. I like Spotify in the car for that reason. I use a Schiit Fulla in my car, streaming from my Android phone highest quality and it really sounds darn good vs car radio etc. I stream Amazon HD in the car too. Cheers, Otto |
A lot of discussion of equipment and sources hear, but no one asked, and op never said, what music you like to listen to. OP mentioned “convenience” as a goal. If op’s listening is primarily classical, op will not love Tidal and Qobuz, and will come to hate Spotify. If so, consider Idagio if redbook is enough, or Primephonic for hi-res. |
Sending some love out to AirPlay, which has facilitated my entry into the streaming world. Bought a used Marantz AV7701 and saw it is Airplay ready. So I did the Roon 2week trial and haven’t looked back. Have been sending CDs into iTunes (on Windows) for years using Apple Lossless Encoding to haul music around in my iPhone. Now iTunes is my Roon repository. Because of fidelity problems with how I had to connect the preamp to WiFi, I bought a used Airport Express device (1264) for $20 on eBay and plugged it into the CD phono input on my preamp. Roon found it without a hitch. Sounds great. With my intro to streaming, I now have Amazon Music Unlimited, too. Discovering new music all over. The only downside is that there’s no connection between Roon and Amazon. Hopefully that will change. Got the audio bug over 40 years ago. Tho I don’t have the gear budget some of you guys/gals have, I have a passion for great sound (and a wife that puts up with it). Appreciate the discussion forum very much. I have learned a lot. Thanx all! |
@gcsakakini, Thank you for sharing your experience with DMC-1. The audio circuit is indeed very interesting with dual differential outputs. It’s certainly not common for a product in this category. If I may ask, how is your DMC-1 connected with rest of your system? Are you using both outputs? How do you like the app interface? |
I have the same PS Audio gear that you have. I have just taken the dive into streaming with the CI Audio DMC-1. It’s amazing and sounds as good as my PSA stuff. I can’t imagine your being disappointed with it in any way. It’s fun and easy to use. When I had questions as I was initially setting it up, Dusty Vawter (CIAudio and DMV-1 creator) was readily available and extremely helpful. I have at least 2000 CDs and a lot of SACDs and I didn’t think I would ever get into streaming. I continue to be amazed at how good it sounds and am glad I went with Dusty’s new creation. |
You have very high end gear to play from CD. It will be difficult but not necessarily impossible to get close. The devil is in the details. Very clean power for everything. Lots of good LPS, lots of choices. My current favorite for the price is the Farad3. In my system I started with an EtherRegen and it was good with LPS1.2 for power. I added a SOtM sNH 10G with clock and Farad3 for power. Then the icing on the cake was adding an EE Switch8 powered by an Uptone JS2. Sounds crazy but it keeps getting better. Then I turned the EtherRegen around and added Fiber to the EtherRegen and SOtM and that was like adding Frosting to the icing. Also big improvement with the 2 dcbl CAT7 cables and a dcbl CAT6 cable from SOtM. I found removing all the SMPS was helpful. I changed SMPS for my REL Longbow's from stock to IFI and it destroyed the sound of my system. The IFI may have cleaner power output but they added a lot of noise to the rest of the system. I had to move them off the dedicated lines for the rest of my audio gear. Roon was another plus for its integration with Tidal and Qobuz and using the DSP, but having the Core on a quiet computer is important and a good streamer counts. I have an Innuos Statement which is very quiet with its crazy power supply. I can hear a difference between locally stored files and hi-rez on Tidal and Qobuz and it is bigger than the difference between Tidal and Qobuz. Tidal is a bit more lively and Qobuz is smoother and a bit more relaxing. But at the end of the day it all sounds good and it gets nit picky only when comparing the sources. Listening to Roon Radio playing Rod Stewart Mandolin Wind 16/44 on Qobuz now and it sounds wonderful. |
I think I am less knowledgeable than many beginners on streaming and downloads. Hoping I made a good choice I bought a Bluesound Vault 2i and ripped about 170 CDs, all of my CD collection. With customer service help I made three spare copies of what the Vault had ripped using multiple passes and metadata on each CD to eliminate the vast majority of bit errors and cover art it took from the internet: two on USB drives - my entire library is only 31 MB on 60 GB flash drives, and a copy I could rearrange in my laptop to index my library by composer; something it would require a cerebral cortex the size of a watermelon to do in the Vault's hard drive of two Terra Bytes. If I need more storage for downloads I add I could put it on a 120 GB flash drive but I doubt I will collect that much more in downloads. I listen to my library through a flash drive I plug into the back of my Vault which is connected to a vintage turn-of-the century MSB Platinum with upgrades. The electronics following are vacuum tube electronics I designed and built myself so I could have things I wanted such as polypropylene power supply filter capacitors in the 1000 Volts I use in the final stage of amplification. What I get from the answers to the original question in this thread is there are no free high resolution services even though the Vault has a long list of streaming services and because I have no faith in my economic future, I do not want to be tied to paying for a subscription so I just purchase downloads in higher resolution than CD. If I am wrong and there is a free service as good as high resolution downloads let me know because I an just a beginner at this. Thank you in advance. |
cleeds—I'm not personally aware of any other evidence of controlled double-blind testing that indicates a statistically valid audible distinction between redbook and higher rez alternatives. That's why I was interested to see your reference, although disappointed with the result. As previously noted, all prior evidence (from controlled blind testing) had always indicated no statistically valid distinction between redbook and higher rez. And the general consensus is that redbook has only improved in the recent decade, as DACs have progressed. As for "appreciable", hey, that word isn't a subjective term. It simply implies obvious, or readily capable of being perceived; i.e., hi-rez presents no readily apparent (no "appreciable") advantage. That's what the available evidence indicates. Personal exceptions are inevitable; some might be valid, others might be the outcome preconceived bias. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-resolution_audio#Controversy In my own practice, I can not say that HiRes makes a difference to me. They both sound excellent and then I concentrate on the music itself. Psychologically, it makes a difference though and for 'bragging rights' I prefer HiRes -- warm and fuzzy feeling of getting The Best :-) |
vtvmtodvm Any findings derived from an experiment involving 7 testers (average age 22) in a anechoic test chamber listening to test signals (not music) just doesn’t convey much of material significance ...That is just one study. There are others that show audible differences between 16/44.1 and higher resolution files. Please feel free to conduct your own tests. ... it seems apparent that redbook resolution serves as an effective and sufficient means to preserve and recreate recorded music, and that higher rez alternatives convey no appreciable audible advantage ...And you base that "apparent" fact on ... what, exactly? When you say no "appreciable" advantage, what exactly do you mean? After all "appreciable" is a subjective term, so it isn’t clear what you’re stating. It’s fine if you’re happy with 16/44.1, of course. But to claim there’s no advantage to better quality formats doesn’t fit the facts. |
“Today, it seems apparent that redbook resolution serves as an effective and sufficient means to preserve and recreate recorded music, and that higher rez alternatives convey no appreciable audible advantage.” vtvmtodvm, I beg to differ but respect your opinion on ‘no appreciable audible advantage’. In my system, I can hear and appreciate the nuances between 16bit/44.1kHz and 24bit/192kHz recordings. DSD is whole another level and well beyond the scope of our discussion in this thread. |
cleeds—Re. "Hi-Rez Audio Distinguished in Blind Testing": Any findings derived from an experiment involving 7 testers (average age 22) in a anechoic test chamber listening to test signals (not music) just doesn't convey much of material significance, at least not to me. Today, it seems apparent that redbook resolution serves as an effective and sufficient means to preserve and recreate recorded music, and that higher rez alternatives convey no appreciable audible advantage. This conclusion does not exclude unique or unusual tests wherein some difference between redbook and higher rez might be perceived (e.g., 22 kids listening to test signals in a anechoic chamber), nor do those exceptions affect the validity of this general conclusion. |
Blind tests show that almost no one can hear the difference between 320 kbps and CD. There are several tests on the Web to try it blind yourself. However, as has been stated there are high-def options. I use Amazon Music HD through Alexa, making my system completely voice-controlled. I can turn on the whole system with one command using an Amazon Smart Plug, and play any song or album with one additional command. I also stream wirelessly from my laptop using MusicBee. Both go through a Play-Fi device (Paradigm PW Link) using DTS Play-Fi, which is rated 24-bit/192kHz. Although it is a preamp, the PW Link does have a digital out, so I suppose that can go to your own DAC, but I know some people have concerns about pre-processing. I couldn't tell you if the PW Link acts as a pure digital pass-through. There are other Play-Fi devices, and companies like McIntosh, Martin Logan, Anthem, Klipsch, Onkyo, Polk, DT, Quad and many others have built-in Play-Fi in some of their devices, so it's not a niche technology. If you should go this route, to remove a point of failure name your Play-Fi device one of Play-Fi's predefined names. |
For those who listen primarily to classical music,curation is a problem. Spotify is really useless, Qobuz & Tidal not much better. You should look at Idagio and Primephonic if your tastes go this way. Primephonic has hi-res, Idagio has only redbook. Both make it so so much easier to find stuff, to hear new stuff, etc. I have an Innuos Zenith Mk 2 to an Auralic Vega dac. I’m thrilled except that I don’t like the interfaces available for lms. Ipeng, ugh. I prefer the web interface, port 9000 ay myinnuous.com. Innuous, if your reading this, please fix it! |
Here we have strange talk , OP is concerned about quality streaming and cd , but the question is did he pulled out all best out of cd ????? . In my case I got vault2 recommend by this forum and I’m happy I’ve tried most major services ended up with Qobuz, and I would never compare Qobuz to Spotify. And I’m not using vault dac I’m using outboard dac and sound is I would say similar to cd . Ofcours I know I didn’t get best out of cd , because I need better player and follow better streamer and better dac to get best out of digital world 🙂 |
cleeds—Thanks for the reference. That's relatively new data; I hadn't seen it before. No time to review now, but will get to it soon. Previous blind studies (all relatively old) had always indicated no statistically valid distinction between redbook and higher rez. And the general consensus is that redbook has only improved in the recent decade, as DACs have progressed. It may be (?) that rebook represents the point of perception, so that aural judgement is in a sort of "knife's edge" balance at that point. |
Oh, and for me in my system Spotify sounds fantastic , as does you tube. I also have Qobuz and it's marginally better on some recordings vs Spotify. Spotify is the better streaming service all round though IMO. It's much better user experience for making play lists and suggestions as to what you may like and the library is huge. I listen (and watch) you tube about 40% of the time and Spotify and qobuz about 30% of the time. It's all down to how good the the material is produced and mixed but there is some seriously fine sounding stuff on you tube lots of great live sets you tube algorithms are also excellent for discovery. I'm running a Lyngdorf TDAI3400 (everything converts to 24 bit 96k) , I run a Cisco 2960 switch in front of the Etherregen and my apple TV goes to the cisco. Chaining the switches like this further improves sound quality even for content from the apple TV. |
I'm with Bobby , streaming is actually not as easy as you would think and getting sound quality to be as good as a decent CD player is not easy. I reccomend an Etherregen from Uptone Audio, about $670 your side of the pond if you want to feed your system with Ethernet. This is a better investment than high end Ethernet cables with filters. Computer equipment is noisy on the whole but there are audio engineers getting in to better design of this kit now. You can improve the system further by ditching switched power supplies for linear ones. Then power conditioning, vibration control, room correction. You can even reclock the Etherregen switch down the line. Available on 30 day try or return , you are on the hook for the return postage. Thank me later. |
No one seems to have mentioned it but the biggest difference for me between Qobuz/Hi Res and Tidal/MQA are their respective music catalogs. Tidal is more focused on contemporary Rock, etc, while Qobuz has the best Jazz and Classical selections. I have both and Roon as well. My DAC is dCS Bartok streamer. I personally prefer Qobuz for sound quality and catalog. Roon is handy for combining the favorites of both services and a some downloaded or ripped owned albums and their Radio feature along with piping music to other sources in the house. And lots of cool metadata if you're into that. But it only works at home. dCS has their own streaming ap called Mosaic that goes directly to the streaming sites and eliminates all programs and equipment in between. It provides best sound. Get Roon on a trial to see if you like it before subscribing. Good Listening! |
vtvmtodvm Re. sound quality, current redbook CD is as good as it gets ... Higher resolution programming sources are not going to provide any audible advantage, although the power of expectation bias can be very persuasive.Actually, blind testing has shown your opinion-stated-as-fact to be mistaken. There is some background info here, if you’re interested. I’m not necessarily a fan of blind testing. But it’s the gold standard for measurementalists, who oddly sometimes reject it when it doesn’t suit their own "expectation bias." |
Thank you, tchatch. You are right, but it is also my fault that I titled this thread "streaming for a beginner". While true I am a beginner, I did state clearly that I want to replicate a similar SQ from my redbook cd collection, currently played thru what I think is very good equipment. Equipment that I invested wisely (if there is such a thing in hi-end audio!) to get the best sound I could possibly get at a budget I was comfortable with. If I cannot get something that is at, close to, or better, than cd spinning, I will lose interest very fast. I'd rather budget $5k (my budget, btw) for such a streaming system than rather waste $1k for something that will, in my opinion, sound below my expectations. I have invested heavily in my system to get a SQ that pleases me, but if I was simply looking for streaming convenience, well, I already have that: Spotify. I have learned a lot here, and am taking all the advice everyone has contributed in order to make my final investment. Again, this has been a phenomenal learning experience for me. |
mbiondo— Re. sound quality, current redbook CD is as good as it gets; refer https://classicalcandor.blogspot.com/2020/01/on-cd-quality.html Higher resolution programming sources are not going to provide any audible advantage, although the power of expectation bias can be very persuasive. |
@adameos, One way to enhance your experience is to isolate the noise from your MacBook USB port. I am not sure if you’re using anything at the moment but you may try this device and see if you hear any audible improvements. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DLMZP5Y/ref=twister_B07FM9J683?_encoding=UTF8&th=1 |
I use Qobuz either streamed from IPad / Frontier router via Air (WiFi or Eth), or streamed from MacBook via Router to DAC USB, depending on what amp I feel like listening too. For me, I still think my good CD player sounds better, clearly more resolved with better presence, clarity / lack of grain, more ‘there’, richer.. I use streaming more because I don’t have a huge collection of CDs, and it gives me access to a wide range of music at my fingertips. I am in general somewhat satisfied with streaming, although sometimes I feel quality is not the best and the system won’t keep me captured for long. If the sound quality is there, with the right music, I find it hard to stop listening and want to turn up the volume frequently. i am still convinced Vinyl sound quality from a good rig is unbeatable, although i do not presently have a vinyl rig. |
"The H360 incorporates a high quality DAC, using Hegel’s proprietary re-clocking. The benefit of this is that we can make everyday sources sound really good. Sources like a phone or a computer. This is why we have also included functionality like Apple AirPlay and DLNA streaming. There is also a reference class USB input, supporting all formats including native DSD64 and DSD128." https://www.hegel.com/products/discontinued/h360 |
GRM, Curious as to why you are using a CAT 7 cable? Do you have a GB Ethernet Network switch in your home? Besides having a restrictive bend radius which may or may not apply, CAT 7 cabling will not enhance your datastream speed. No harm, but no benefit either. But if you had a GB network and with a substantial amount of video traffic at once, then you could see some benefit if there's a lot of traffic on your network, Also, is your cable run long? Are you an IT pro? Just curious, not meant as criticism, DOB |
Many posters here seem to be ignoring the fact that the OP has purchased a DAC and disc player that each cost several thousand dollars (used) and that he wants sound quality as good as CD’s played through his current equipment. I think this requires more than an entry level streamer. I have no personal experience with the PS Audio Bridge that can plug right in to the Directstream DAC, but I’ve spent enough time on the PS Audio forum to learn that many users think it is a step down in sound quality from what they get playing CD’s with an excellent transport into that DAC. I think the OP would be happier with something like an Innuos Zen or a Lumin U1 mini or an Auralic Aries G1, if not one of the more expensive offerings from such manufacturers. |
When I purchased my BlueSound Node 2i I purchased a ProJect S2 DAC to connect to the BlueSound. When I added the external DAC the bass sounded thinner. I wonder why that was the case? Of course the ProJect DAC is an inexpensive DAC and perhaps that is why the BlueSound sounded better without adding an external DAC. I also for some reason sensed better sound quality when I played MQA songs on Tidal. Wonder why that is the case or is this just my imagination? Seems to me like so many things are smoke and mirrors. |
Can't agree with @bobby1945 "Don't believe all this nonsense about how easy this streaming is . Dropping a pick up onto a record was easy - digital streaming requires a significant amount of effort to get an equivalent SQ." You can just start with Node 2i or even Fiio M11, Qobuz free trial, and off you go -- browsing through 200,000+ CD and HiRes albums; let's see how bobby1945 catches up with his SQ and ease of use :-) You need nothing else from his post. As I write this I am listening to today's new albums (some 30 new albums are released each Friday) from Qobuz app on my Fiio M11 connected with $30 coax cable to RME ADI-2 DAC powering beyerdynamic Amiron Home headphones. Trust me -- I couldn't be happier. In fact, I could listen to just the Fiio w/o external DAC and I did in the past for a long time. |
“Dropping a pick up onto a record was easy” @bobby1945, You probably own one of these turntables 😂 https://www.amazon.com/Victrola-Bluetooth-Suitcase-Turntable-Speakers/dp/B00UMVW4VA/ref=sr_1_3?dchil... |
Don't believe all this nonsense about how easy this streaming is . Dropping a pick up onto a record was easy - digital streaming requires a significant amount of effort to get an equivalent SQ. OK so you jump in with either TIDAL or QOBUZ Now you really should consider ROON- Infinite number of options in the DSP settings which will keep you busy for months I choose to have a dedicated laptop -lots of RAM and windows 10 cut back to bare bones configuration + dedicated LPS Lets look at our router , need to hard wire to laptop with Cat8 ethernet cable as a minimum + dedicated LPS Now special USB cable to ensure integrity of digital signal is not corrupted before converted to analogue in the DAC -of course make sure DAC is MQA compliant if opting for TIDAL and of course own dedicated LPS At last we have an analogue signal to be amplified via a power conditioner like a AQ Niagra 1200 and AQ power and interconnects. Get those cables off the floor and room correct with DIRAC Phew now lets listen to some music. |
