Speakers vs. headphones

I owned them 30 years it was my first quality heeadphone before the 7 others...

But they were very good.... All were diferent but Beyerdynamic DT950 pro was a gem...

I am almost tempted to buy one another time...Even if i dont need them...One of my favorite...

Over the years I’ve put about 40 K in my system . Not that much .

I hear more in every way in ByerDynamic 990pro that cost 150$ and

has been on market for 20 years . Stupid !

Always told a buddy didn’t like it on my head , he said , try one month

and I’ll pay for it .

Being honest man(usually) I said he was right in less than 3 weeks .REALLY Stupid !!

Over the years I’ve put about 40 K in my system . Not that much .

I hear more in every way in ByerDynamic 990pro that cost 150$ and

has been on market for 20 years . Stupid !

Always told a buddy didn’t like it on my head , he said , try one month

and I’ll pay for it .

Being honest man(usually) I said he was right in less than 3 weeks .REALLY Stupid !!

It is very normal...And i lived through the same experience with my 7 headphones. ( now retired)

Details and intimacy, clarity and transparency are way easier to be reach with good headphones at low price and without the complex room treatment and necessary control than with speakers..

But when we succeed in room treatment and control we reach all these qualities and way more than what most headphone could ever do...Without the uncomfort of wearing a headband...

But most people dont have a dedicated isolated room and never will have one, and most who have one will never invest long time and study in acoustic listening experiments anyway, then headphones stay one of the most interesting solutions for listening music at low cost with good S.Q.

But at the end, speakers or headphones is a completely personal FREE choice and experience.. We can also enjoy the two experience like i did myself for years... . But my posts are there to speak about the real power of acoustic in HI-FI experience OVER the gear upgrade marketing conditioning...

And what you call the "room effect" can be a very positive superior upgrading room effect and also a negative partially unresolved problem and degrading room effect... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic experiments ask for way more than buying ready made costly panels of any kind...I never bought anything....

I hate to say it, but I now find listening with my headphones a more immersive experience than listening with my speakers. Maybe it’s the novelty, but I find I’m getting more involved in the music through headphones. There’s a more immediate and direct connection without distractions or “room effect.”

Maybe I will feel different once the novelty wears off.
I have a hell of a lot more investment in capital and time in my system than with phones.

I hate to say it, but I now find listening with my headphones a more immersive experience than listening with my speakers.  Maybe it’s the novelty, but I find I’m getting more involved in the music through headphones.  There’s a more immediate and direct connection without distractions or “room effect.”

Maybe I will feel different once  the novelty wears off.
I have a hell of a lot more investment in capital and time in my system than with phones.

Exactly! 

Maybe ignorance is bliss, because I’m enjoying my mid level headphone system immensely.

I’m currently listening to Mahler’s 8th Symphony on headphones. Despite the marked superiority of my speaker system, I never before perfectly heard as clearly the complex contrapuntal texture of the vocal lines in the first movement.

Frogman,

Since I can’t afford three times the cost, I think I’ll hang on to what I’ve got for a while and wait until I see something used.

‘Again, thanks for your input.

rv, no, those are not what I have. Mine are an older model Stax combo that I have had for several years. Stax has several different models of headphones and dedicated drivers, both ss and tubed. While they don’t make the exact same models as what I have, they do make very similar ones. Of note is the style of the “Earspeakers”. They are fairly large, but easily the most comfortable headphones that I have ever had on my head. The two “cans” just barely, and just enough, grip the sides of your head. The ears themselves don’t feel any pressure at all. Most of the weight is supported and suspended by the “strap” that goes against the top of your head. They are an open back design and this, plus the fact that they don’t squeeze your ears at all makes them extremely comfortable and with less of the “inside your head” sensation.

They don’t make the exact models as mine anymore, but they do have what are clearly descendants of these as well as the more traditional style of round, sealing ear pads. I am frankly not personally familiar with most of their most recent offerings and not at all the ones you ask about.

I will say that when I shopped for these years ago, the dedicated ss driver (mentioned below) I found to be too unrelenting in the highs. The Stax are extremely detailed so if one is sensitive to solid state-itis, I would be careful. The tube (hybrid, actually) drivers were much more to my liking. On the other hand it’s been several years since I listened to any new offerings from them. I would also point out that current models similar to mine cost about three times the cost of the one you ask about, yet used combos exactly like mine can be found used fairly easily for about the same amount or less as the one you ask about.

This is what I have:

I’m looking at this for sale.  Is this what you have?

STAX SRM-D50 Electrostatic Headphone Amplifier / DAC
 

It’s a combo phone and amp.

rv, I don’t see why not.  I use my IPad for headphone listening all the time.  I take the signal from its analog mini headphone jack which goes to RCA’s plugged into the headphone amp. 

Frogman,

As a fellow musician, I certainly respect your judgement as to how real music sounds. I have an important question though:
Can I connect the phone/amp combo to my tablet to use as a streamer, or do I have to hook it up to my system?
I don’t want to have a wire extending across the room from my listening chair.

I understand your point and you are right frogman...

I salute you and appreciate greatly all your posts...

I am in ecstasy with your Pat Martino recommendation right now and i can forget headphones and rooms...

Thanks to you...

This is the reason that home recordings of any medium always sound best when the speakers are not playing while recording takes place.  By extension, I think the same can be said of this potential benefit while listening on headphones.  

But trust me, headphones vibrate a lot unbeknownst to us like a speaker encxlosure vibrate... And even the headphone band transmit vibrations and crosstalk... 😁😊

mahgister, no need to apologize and please don’t mute yourself.

I am not arguing that one can not improve the acoustic properties of headphone shells, just as one can do so with a speaker. Nor am I arguing that headphones are “better” in any regard; except perhaps in the case of a particular listener who simply prefers that sonic presentation, but that is a subjective call. I am ONLY arguing, that if one can not, or does not have the inclination to treat a room to the extent that there is not a single acoustic “problem”, as perhaps you have been able to achieve, the fact that the output of a headphone driver does not interface with the room acoustic (perhaps problematical, or at least less than perfect) that this is a potential advantage. Again, only relevant if one likes the different sonic presentation that headphones provide.

You are suggesting that the space between the headphone driver and your ears, typically one inch or less and which in high quality headphones is a very controlled “environment” per the headphone’s design, can be as acoustically problematical as a typical listening room with typically problematical dimensions, problematical construction materials, furniture, glass windows, dogs 😊, …..

I’m having a little trouble with that notion. Moreover, if one gives any credence at all to the deleterious effects of acoustic borne vibrations from playback on electronics and playback gear, particularly if one listens to vinyl, that is another potential advantage. This is the reason that home recordings of any medium always sound best when the speakers are not playing while recording takes place.  By extension, I think the same can be said of this potential benefit while listening on headphones.  

My ears are not between the drivers speakers and the enclosure of the speaker..

They are in the room...

My ears are not between the drivers headphone and the shell of the headphone..

The rooms is on each my ears here..

In the 2 case the "room" or shell, i must controls the SAME factors to optimize the experience...mechancal, electrical and acoustical...

Have you ever try to modify an headphone?

If you try you will improve it if you made the right changes..I modify my 7 headphones with success...

But at the end a room can deliver what most shell would never deliver : more lifelike experience of music in a real non confined space filling the room not filling the head...And the intimacy of headphone sound can even be reach in a room ... I did it...

Yes it is a question of tastes and needs... But it is also a question of experience and experiments... At the end any room could beat all headphones IF acoustically well controlled...IF not it is a matter of taste and convenience for sure... Most people dont have a dedicated room to begin with and to do experiments with it...

This is my point ...

Ok i apologize and will mute myself now.... 😊

My deepest respect to you frogman...

I did not say that “shell geometry is akin to speaker enclosure+room”. I said, “akin to speaker enclosure geometry”; no +room. The +room is the next step in the process. Headphones don’t deal with +room. Headphones, in a strong sense, are simply small speakers and of course both have enclosure resonances.. All that you wrote about controlling vibrations and resonance in an enclosure is correct, but this applies to BOTH headphones and speakers. The sound from the speaker then has the room acoustic to contend with.

The reflections/absorbtion/diffusion of the sound INSIDE the headpohone shell is what we listen to...We dont listen to the sound coming directly from the driver of the headphone... This is my point...

For the speaker enclosure it is necessary to control his vibrations and resonance...But like from an headphone drivers and shell who vibrate, the room vibrate also and the gear, and the speakers must be mechanically isolated...

Shell geometry is akin to speaker enclosure+room

Why?

Because in a 13 feet square room it is easy to calculate the speed of sound and realized that the waves cross my room roughly 10 times each second...( the neuro physiology of sound treatment is calculated in fraction of a second, less than few hundreds milliseconds for the brain).

What i listen then to DONT COME from the speakers enclosure and the drivers of the speakers directly but from the room geometry and acoustic content and even is characterized by his topology, in my case 2 windows and one door ...

In the case of an headphone we must divide the speed of sound by the few inches of the shell and you will realized that you dont listen to the headphone drivers DIRECTLY but to the shell of the headphone and to his acoustical content and even to his topology if the headphone is open...

Then yes headphone elimnate the room problem... But my room eliminate the DIFFERENT shells problem of ALL my headphone... 😁😊No headphone sound at all like one another why? Shell geometry, topology, and specific acoustic peoperties of the different materials composing the headphone...Same problem than with a room...

i respect you greatly frogman and i apologize for insisting about my point...

But anyone can prefer headphones for sure... But the reason cannot be because they are IDEALLY and by DESIGN better than room+speakers because they eliminate the room, yes they eliminate the room, but they replace it by another room problem : their own shell...

The only reason why people prefer headphone is the fact that it is more complex et difficult to set a room acoustic than a shell acoustic... But at the end in a dedicated room well chosen speakers in a rightfully embedded acoustic, the confort is better and the S.Q. MAY be better... it is my experience...

I wish you the best and respect you more than words can say...

“Shell geometry” is akin to speaker enclosure geometry.

I am in full agreement that acoustic control of a room is extremely important and you make some excellent additional points. However, I don’t agree that with headphones there is a parallel (“correspond”) as concerns the elimination of room effects. “Shell geometry” is akin to speaker enclosure geometry. In both cases the driver is being surrounded, or at least supported by an enclosure. Speakers (enclosures) are situated in a room and their output is then subject to that room’s acoustic effects. Headphones sit on one’s head and their sound does not interface with the room acoustic. That is the advantage.

You are right like i already said, it is up to personal choices and tastes and needs...

But it way easier to modify a room to reach an optimal S.Q. than modify the shell headphones... No headphone shell is perfect like no room is perfect BEFORE mechanical,electrical and acoustical controls... This is basic science not my taste...It is my experience...

And the living dynamic and bass, and INTEGRATED image of the sound is better in my room because of my acoustic settings, even intimacy... I listen music with the sound out of my head and with the intimacy of an headphone...

The main reason why many people PREFER headphone is simple, they dont have the luxury of a dedicated room which they can transform acoustically... I understand that... But i must describe my experience for those who have the time and a dedicated room...No need for headphone after that because they will be unsatifying, fir many reasons, like confort, not only the S.Q. ....

@mahgister - Neither my speakers nor my headphones are ’better’ than the other - they are two completely different ways to experience music. If somebody thinks their ’headphones are better than their speakers’, it means that they prefer headphones to speakers, not at all necessarily due to room treatment or protecting others from the sound.

First frogman thanks for your kind words...

Second you are right at the end, it is up to anyone taste and needs...

But third i must correct something you said about eliminating the room...

Because ALL headphones had a SHELL geometry and an internal acoustic content, which correspond to the room geometry and acoustic content...And if someone can eliminate the room properties using headphone, he cannot eliminate the shell properties itself...

Then all my 7 headphones , 2 stax included, had their own acoustic signature like any room...

Because of that i MODDED all my headphone to eliminate vibrations, to control the electrical noise floor from them and even to change their acoustic settings for the better, FOR ALL OF THEM...I succeed...But when i decided to modify my room acoustically i succeed also and reach a better S.Q....

Also ,contrary to the general opinion, even a small SQUARE room like mine is EASY to use and transform acoustically to a so great effect that most headphone cannot  compete with , even in intimacy and details count...But we must have a dedicated room ,not a living room, and we must treat the room with reflective  absorbing and diffusive panels in equilibrium..Not only that we must use an active mechanical control of the room to modify the pressure zones distribution...

It is my experience...

Many facts in audio are beliefs that are unfounded, for example it is not true that near listening can eliminate the "room effect" in a small room, all changes in the acoustical settings impact on the near listening field ALSO in my room and not only on the regular listening position away from the speakers... It is like that in any room of relatively small size...

It is not true that a small square room is "bad" because of the resonant bass modes like  some claims and even  acoustic products sellers ...If we know how to change the pressure zones distribution in the room, a small square room (13x13 feet by 8 feet 1/2 high) can be astounding in bass, soundstage, imaging, intimacy, listener envelopment etc...,Mine is ...

Of all the facts erroneous in audio the more widespread is the illusion that the sound come from the gear electronical design first....It is false.... The acoustic settings of a room is the most important factor , not the dac, the amplifier or even the speakers if these speakers are rightfully choosen for a specific room to begin with...

All audio engineering push the market to upgrade expanse and had no interest to educate people about acoustic....

The vocabulary of engineering about sound is absolutely not the vocabulary of acoustic about sound, but at least the acoustic vocabulary is CENTERED about the timbre playing tonal experience and the relations between different sound sources in the room...

But like you already know people in audio thread spoke about bass and highs, about cold or warm, neutrallity etc...None of these words describe sound nor music... They describe the way the electrical design MAY contribute positively or negatively to sound experience nothing more... But who listen ONLY to his amplifier?

mahgister makes a great point, as usual, about the benefits of acoustic control of the listening room, but in doing so he also explains why headphone listening can be so good - room effects are completely taken out of the equation. It is for this reason that I think it is not a matter of “better” or “worse”.

@mahgister - Neither my speakers nor my headphones are 'better' than the other - they are two completely different ways to experience music. If somebody thinks their 'headphones are better than their speakers', it means that they prefer headphones to speakers, not at all necessarily due to room treatment or protecting others from the sound. 

rv, since circumstances require that you use headphones at certain times, you owe it to yourself to try a really good headphones set up. Two very different experiences, headphones/speakers. Overall, I prefer listening on my speakers, but those times when I want my listening to be private headphones are great. Still other times I want the, what is for me, the very intimate and immersive experience of headphone listening. However, while I agree that relatively inexpensive headphones can sound good, it is not until one experiences what great headphones can do that things get really interesting.

mahgister makes a great point, as usual, about the benefits of acoustic control of the listening room, but in doing so he also explains why headphone listening can be so good - room effects are completely taken out of the equation. It is for this reason that I think it is not a matter of “better” or “worse”. If one does not object to the “sound inside one’s head” effect and can make the adjustment away from the usual “large soundstage in the room and in front”, an excellent headphone setup can compare very favorably and even surpass just about any loudspeaker in most audiophilic parameters with the possible exception of the visceral impact of low frequencies.

I own Stax Lambda Pro electrostatic headphones with the T1 dedicated tube driver and the sound is fabulous. Amazing detail, tonal truthfulness, dynamics and very articulate and extended bass lacking only that visceral “whole body” feeling. Stax, because of their design do a pretty good job of moving the “soundstage”, while still “inside your head”, to somewhat in front of your head. This is why Stax refers to them as “ear speakers”.

Highly recommended!

My experience is the opposite...

After finishing my room treatment and control, i put my headphones in the closet..

I dont want them anymore... 7 pairs covering, electrostatc, magnepan, electroacoustic and hybrid.... 😁😊

the reason and the difference in opinions come only from a simple fact:

acoustic controls...

I can modify all the perameter of acoustic in the room...

The intimacy i had with headphones i created it with a diffusive screen 2 angular panets with diffusive tubular structures and many other acoustic devices...

The only reason i see for headphones is to protect others for the sound... And i dont need that...

If your headphone are better than your speakers it is because the room acoustic is not  at his optimal settings...

I love my Bose Quiet Comfort for airplanes and noisy environments. Definitely not accurate or in any way audiophile, but sound great… as in punchy and enjoyable in noisy environments. Using “audiophile headphones in noisy environments does not work, all the subtitles are lost to the noise floor and you are left with unbalanced sound. While the Bose are a bit cartoonish, they sound great and  balanced in noisy environments.

‘’I spent years on planes trying to recreate the audiophile experience, and quit when I heard Bose an realized for this environment they got it right. Any other environment not so much.

Some great points about how even lower cost headphones can sound really good.  I bought a pair of wireless bluetooth headphones to wear while mowing the lawn.  They are not "accurate" at all, lots of treble emphasis and the noise cancelling (which really works!) does some weird things, but all the same, I found myself really enjoying the music and hearing things I hadn't noticed before while listening at very moderate volume.

I have a great 2-channel system, and I have a great headphone system, and I listen to them about 50/50 - variety is the spice! 

I, too, find that things that don’t sound so great on my speakers sound just fine on the headphones.

My portable headphone system drove me to change my whole perception of audio. My portable system with Grado phones had bounce and warmth that my hi-fi system didn't have. I could play lessor quality CDs on the headphones, and they sounded great. So I went from extreme accuracy to a system that just sounds best for me. I probably have a tad too much bass underline and too sweet midrange but damn does it sound good on 99% of the stuff I play. It changed the way I approach hi-fi and I'm way happier. 

Bare in mind that headphone listening should be limited to void possible health hazards. Probably half-hour maximum if headphones are over ear cans and 10..15min with ear buds.

There’s no doubt that my speaker system is better in every parameter, but the headphones present a great alternative.

I've had the opposite journey.  I have built three nice headphone rigs and have about a dozen headphones including some high-end cans like Audeze LCD-4, Senn HD800, and Sony MDR-Z1R.

As my two channel systems improved I find myself so involved with the detail, soundstage, imaging, and dynamics of the system that I don't want to limit myself to what headphones are able to present.  And it's nice not to have anything sitting on your head while you're listening.

Ironically, the headphones have made me listen to my speaker system with more concentration. I’m enjoying  the music more and appreciating its quality more.

Evidently two versions of this thread are currently running.

Who knew?

Quite a few of us knew. A good headphone amp and high end headphones can give surprising performance and is like getting a second system. I use mine about half the time compared to running loudspeakers.

Yes a great headphone system is very enjoyable. Overall you can achieve a similar level of detail and overall sound quality for 1/10th the cost (see my two systems, click on my ID). However, ultimately a room system can do stuff that headphones cannot. I had brought my headphone system home from the office and started upgrading it until it reached a really amazing level of performance. Then I went back to my main system and just had to ask, “why does’ t my main system sound that good (tonally and musically?” Then additional upgrades to my main system.

Ok, so $100K later I have two amazing systems. I am luckily can play either without disturbing anyone. Overall, I am happy with the outcome. But watch out, if you are an audiophile… well a headphone system can be truly astonishing… think upgrading all components… and I’d you beat your main system the disease could spread there.

I’m retired, both systems bring real joy to me. But watch out… it may cost you. A great headphone system is really amazing!

Like I said, once you make them your own.

The best setup has two unique systems, both with remote control from the seat position.

I’m with you. I do love the soundstage and feeling, like Alison Krauss is singing standing right in front of me, via speakers (Vandersteen 2CE Signature III). I have a decent mid-priced system that I am improving, but when the wife is at home I cannot listen as loudly as I like to at times (my listening room is next to the living room). My DAC/preamp has a good headphones stage, and I discovered when I got it a few years ago that I really enjoy phones (no room effect). It’s a different experience as you say, more intimate in ways. For $2-3k you can get reference phones that are probably the equivalent of $15-30,000 speakers.

I am thinking of a new preamp with a phones stage (Linear Tube Audio) which is equally good with speakers or phones. Sometimes I will play a track through the speakers and then through phones, and enjoy comparing the differences. There are some really good headphone amps out there that would be fun to explore too.

For mobile use, I used an AQ Dragonfly Cobalt with Sennheiser 600s, streaming it from the cell phone or tablet. that is good too.

A very economical headphone setup can sound very good but if you think it sounds really really good, it's time to upgrade your stereo rig.